Ed Willes: Canucks' Linden revamp left in the dust by Leafs' Shana-plan

[UFCanuck]

Vegas was just in the cup finals as an Expansion, everything's out the door.

[Undrafted]

58 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

I wonder -- do fans in Toronto criticize their media for being fluffers and fanboys?

I can actually answer that from experience, having lived there for many years and the answer is "no".  Leafs fans in Toronto pretty much demand that the local/national media pay homage to "Canada's Team".  This is why SN hires and gives webspace to pro-Leafs bloggers like McIndoe and Dangle; because that's what their primary market wants

[5nothincanucksohno]

16 hours ago, ReggieBush said:

Only ignorant people compare them. Different expectations, different phases of the competitive cycle, different core of players. Apples to Oranges really

Exactly...they were in totally different places...downside of a cup run for the Canucks and 12 years with only one playoff birth for the Leafs.

 

The most interesting aspect of all this is and something the bloggers/media always overlook in a sense and complain about (ie trade picks for Baer, etc.) is the fact that the leafs had a decent group of 22 - 27-year-old players (Bozak, Kadri, JVR, etc.) to act as support pieces to Shanny's high draft picks. This is exactly what Benning corrected early on and now his high draft picks have support as they join the team (not just a bunch of 35-year-old plus players and/or NHL drifters). 

 

I think you will now see mgmt acquire more and more draft picks now that the organization has more depth from Jr to the NHL squad.

 

 

[Rob_Zepp]

12 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

 

"Media?"  What are you Donald Trump? 

 

 

 

DeNiro, I've seen you make comments how small players won't do well late in the playoffs on multiple occasions.  Does this apply to Pettersson & Hughes as well?  Patrick Kane?  Brad Marchand?  

 

 

If you hit this button it shows the story, it's hidden for convenience as it's quite large.  

 

To be fair, that goes for virtually all print media. 

LOL.  The only "hate" is from the media hacks who seem to have latched on that some people re-post the trolling they do to their own city's professional hockey team.   I guess those who follow such hacks can absorb some of the hate.   My guess is the true hate is for their jobs and that they could not find a way to adjust to the changing times and are trying to go out with some form of an "edge" reputation in the hope someone, somewhere, picks them up.

[Rob_Zepp]

9 hours ago, spook007 said:

As long as people buys the crap papers they get to spew their venom.... 

Nowhere else do local papers slam their own sports team as much as here... f'ing clowns.

Most city's have constructive criticism but the level of fabricated negative narrative that comes to the Canucks from its local media sets a bar at a new low that is for sure.   Even the Eastern media types notice it (EF one of the few who says it publicly but it is talked about a LOT).   Canucks have arguably the best prospect pool in their entire history as an NHL franchise and the "media" wish to criticize it with a non-comparable?

[TheGuardian_]

17 hours ago, Solinar said:

  A little lotto luck going the other way for both teams, and where would we be?  Add to that, Toronto started their shanaplan after years of not being really competitive, draft picks and all.  Benning kind of walked into a tirefire from a prospect pool perspective.  

So all of a sudden draft position matters? Blame Gillis for drafting late picks but TO's resurgence is due to having earlier picks. And they have called me a troll. 

16 hours ago, King Heffy said:

The only smart thing Toronto has done was win the Matthews lottery.  Toronto still has precisely zero defensemen capable of playing defense at even an AHL standard. 

Mathews helped a lot but they would have got a top level player anyway, they still have Marner, Nylander, Kadri maybe add Tkachuk, Laine, Dubious or Puljujarvi combined with other deals they may have made and that line up is still superior.

 

TO's defence was the 11th best in the league, 2 goals out of being the 9th best. These thoughtless comments are trolling.

 

Okay, then compare NJ to the Canucks or Columbus, not Columbus because they hired a good coach.

 

You do know that trolling goes both ways. I don't know which is worse, unquestioning and unthinking loyalty based on non facts, fantasy and hope. Or simply putting the standings up. and trying to remind some posters what the ultimate goal of this game is and should be.

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

So all of a sudden draft position matters? Blame Gillis for drafting late picks but TO's resurgence is due to having earlier picks. And they have called me a troll. 

Mathews helped a lot but they would have got a top level player anyway, they still have Marner, Nylander, Kadri maybe add Tkachuk, Laine, Dubious or Puljujarvi combined with other deals they may have made and that line up is still superior.

 

TO's defence was the 11th best in the league, 2 goals out of being the 9th best. These thoughtless comments are trolling.

 

Okay, then compare NJ to the Canucks or Columbus, not Columbus because they hired a good coach.

 

You do know that trolling goes both ways. I don't know which is worse, unquestioning and unthinking loyalty based on non facts, fantasy and hope. Or simply putting the standings up. and trying to remind some posters what the ultimate goal of this game is and should be.

Considering this is the Canuck’s board, and (mostly) Canuck’s fans hate the Leafs, wouldn’t promoting the Leafs in comparison to the Canucks more likely be Trolling? 

It’s been hot out.  Why not try to cool down with some delicious green and blue Kool Aid?  

[ilduce39]

it’s been debunked enough on here but the part of the magical leafs rebuild that never gets discussed is the majority of the players contributing to their recent success were already in-house prior to 2014.  

 

The one thing they did was holding back Nylander and Marner to help them finish last / better odds at Matthews... and of course they got lucky there.  That team might have tanked but still had a lot of good players on it for when they did bring in those 3. 

 

We’re kinda the same way.  A solidly built team but without top notch scoring to put us over the hump. Not to mention injury problems have kept us at the bottom. Adding Pettersson/Gaudette/Hughes/Juolevi and the others should give us a big shot in the arm.  Hughes and Juolevi in particular will bump the stats of everyone with their elite transitional play. 

 

If it all works out the team is going to turn around in a hurry when the kids arrive, be it this year or next.  Not sure how the media will spin that. 

[oldnews]

The Leafs aborted their 'rebuild' prematurely, again.

 

They never should have been renting depth forwards for 2nd round picks, period.  That was plain stupid.  Prematue, delusional, and ill-advised.

 

At the same time, they didn't go all in - they did not improve a woefully insufficient playoff blueline.

 

 

 

And their media wonders what Benning is doing lol.

 

 

First round exits in the 'mediocrity' zone with lower draft picks - wasted draft picks on rentals - signing multiples of expensive old free agents....the irony is quite glaring.

 

 

That is a team with 2 roster players drafted outside the top 10.   Rebuilt (not) through the draft, but through over a decade of failure, and free agency.

 

Imagine if they'd stayed the course and not acquired Kessel...

 

Imagine if they'd resisted the delusion that they were done rebuilding - kept those picks they wasted on Boyle and Plekanec - drafted a couple more defensemen in the 2nd round, preserved the cap they wasted on the archipelago of Robidas islands that got them what exactly, resisted the urge to sign 37 year old Patrick Marleau for 6+ mllion.....they'd have more assets to use, more youth to push from within, more cap to re-sign their young players with.....

That would be a team that I'd be more optimistic about their future.

As it is, they're kinda stuck in between with a whole lot of question marks still to answer.

 

 

But Blue Koolaid for everyone.  Cup favorites!

[TheGuardian_]

Just now, Alflives said:

Considering this is the Canuck’s board, and (mostly) Canuck’s fans hate the Leafs, wouldn’t promoting the Leafs in comparison to the Canucks more likely be Trolling? 

It’s been hot out.  Why not try to cool down with some delicious green and blue Koop Aid?  

I was in Montreal a few days ago, thank god for AC.

 

Comparing any team to the Canucks should be okay after all that is what league standings do and in this case pertinent for the timeline, that it is hated TO showing Vancouver up ratchets up the comparisons. Is Vancouver not as good as TO? This is what makes the rivalry intense, to see them, of all teams, STATE a plan and keep to it and have it work.

 

Really how hard would it have been to hire the best GM available? Offer enough money, how hard to hire the best coach available? Yes I know everyone hated Torts and crucified him for saying exactly the same thing Benning/Linden said a month later that they were hailed as experts for stating.

 

Holding off trading the Sedins and rebuilding because it would be unfair to them might be nice, but now the team is essentially 4 years behind if they are rebuilding, they have 28 draft picks and Gillis's off the board pick via a bold trade is the very best they have, 5 years ago.

 

But at this point they have to keep near the bottom and draft in the top 7 for the next 2/3 drafts.

 

You know what will be really maddening will be when they revamp the draft rules back to the McDavid rules, the statement will be that the "old" rules were not helping the teams that needed the help the most. Of course by then it will be LA, Anahiem, Nashville, Minny, that need the help the most. Maybe the Nucks get one year in that "new" system but that is not their luck.

 

[PhillipBlunt]

Willes needs to get off of Shanahan's (expletive deleted) for a second. Neither team has played a single game in their present configuration, yet Willes is already willingly slurping away on the TO Shanaplan. Press in this city is just pathetic in their single-minded approach to reporting. 

 

Toronto sucked wind for over a decade with their pathetic fanbase openly deriding the players at games. Yet somehow Vancouver is in the dust? Another case of derisive reporting that relies more on sensationalism than fact. 

 

Wipe your chin, Ed. You missed a spot. 

 

 

[TheGuardian_]

15 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

it’s been debunked enough on here but the part of the magical leafs rebuild that never gets discussed is the majority of the players contributing to their recent success were already in-house prior to 2014.  

 

The one thing they did was holding back Nylander and Marner to help them finish last / better odds at Matthews... and of course they got lucky there.  That team might have tanked but still had a lot of good players on it for when they did bring in those 3. 

 

We’re kinda the same way.  A solidly built team but without top notch scoring to put us over the hump. Not to mention injury problems have kept us at the bottom. Adding Pettersson/Gaudette/Hughes/Juolevi and the others should give us a big shot in the arm.  Hughes and Juolevi in particular will bump the stats of everyone with their elite transitional play. 

 

If it all works out the team is going to turn around in a hurry when the kids arrive, be it this year or next.  Not sure how the media will spin that. 

They also benched Kadri for "discipline" reasons.

 

I don't like doing the, "they should have picked" a particular player, but there are quite a few that were available and have out performed those selected over the years.

 

How many fans are at least a little bit concerned about the size of the team knowing it is still bigger than or a least league average size that win the playoffs the majority of the time and the cup in all but two of the last 25 seasons? Those "stats" have to be considered. This is not the first time this team has said the "direction" the league is going, does only small now equal fast or skilled? We have heard this mantra before.

[TheGuardian_]

8 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Willes needs to get off of Shanahan's (expletive deleted) for a second. Neither team has played a single game in their present configuration, yet Willes is already willingly slurping away on the TO Shanaplan. Press in this city is just pathetic in their single-minded approach to reporting. 

 

Toronto sucked wind for over a decade with their pathetic fanbase openly deriding the players at games. Yet somehow Vancouver is in the dust? Another case of derisive reporting that relies more on sensationalism than fact. 

 

Wipe your chin, Ed. You missed a spot. 

 

 

He is not in the minority, realistically Vancouver is no where near TO, Vegas already has NYR, NYI, Arizona, Sens all tanking for Hughes, but the Nucks are still in the chase.

The result of the fanbase openly expressing discontent was that the team cleaned house and forced improvement quickly. If/when that happens here the next regime will benefit from 6 years to a decade of top 7/10 picks hopefully.

 

Here is what most of the continent thinks will happen next year, at this time, how many people are right besides you?

JUN 30/2019@6:45p

2019 Stanley Cup - Odds to Win

NHL

Winner

• Toronto Maple Leafs +700
• Tampa Bay Lightning +900
• Boston Bruins +950
• Nashville Predators +1100
• Vegas Golden Knights +1100
• Washington Capitals +1200
• Pittsburgh Penguins +1200
• Winnipeg Jets +1400
• San Jose Sharks +2200
• Edmonton Oilers +2500
• Philadelphia Flyers +2500
• Los Angeles Kings +2500
• St. Louis Blues +2500
• Minnesota Wild +2600
• Anaheim Ducks +2800
• Dallas Stars +2800
• Calgary Flames +2800
• Columbus Blue Jackets +3000
• Chicago Blackhawks +3000
• New Jersey Devils +3500
• Colorado Avalanche +3500
• Florida Panthers +4000
• Montreal Canadiens +6600
• New York Rangers +6600
• Detroit Red Wings +6600
• Buffalo Sabres +6600
• Carolina Hurricanes +7000
• Vancouver Canucks +7000
• New York Islanders +8000
• Arizona Coyotes +8000
• Ottawa Senators +15000

[oldnews]

"we’ve been given 1,000 words to enlighten the masses."

 

This is my favorite part - alongside the victim narrative about being trolled lol.

 

What an idiot.  Literally.

 

Ed Willes....'enlightening the masses'.

 

The Province Leninists to the rescue lol.  Now I've heard it all.

 

[189lb enforcers?]

[Solinar]

1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said:

So all of a sudden draft position matters? Blame Gillis for drafting late picks but TO's resurgence is due to having earlier picks. And they have called me a troll. 

Mathews helped a lot but they would have got a top level player anyway, they still have Marner, Nylander, Kadri maybe add Tkachuk, Laine, Dubious or Puljujarvi combined with other deals they may have made and that line up is still superior.

 

TO's defence was the 11th best in the league, 2 goals out of being the 9th best. These thoughtless comments are trolling.

 

Okay, then compare NJ to the Canucks or Columbus, not Columbus because they hired a good coach.

 

You do know that trolling goes both ways. I don't know which is worse, unquestioning and unthinking loyalty based on non facts, fantasy and hope. Or simply putting the standings up. and trying to remind some posters what the ultimate goal of this game is and should be.

 

  Personally, I hold Gillis accountable for a poor drafting record.   Doing well puts you lower down in the draft, which makes a late first the equivalent of an early 2nd, and you go from there.  So it is like never having a first, but you do have all your other picks, per se.  To barely get any dividends out of that is still terrible.  I believe Weber was a 2nd round pick, as was Josi.  Subban was a 3rd round pick.  Don't tell me you can't get people below the first round in the top 15...Well, unless you're Edmonton.

  Toronto's core was put together before Matthews, who was an important part.  I argued we should have gotten Nylander or Ehlers over Virtanen.  The team chose Virtanen.  Here's hoping that he pulls thru and develops into that Power Forward people envision.  Their timeline for success is usually after the finesse players who bring that scoring prowess almost immediately and then fill in the other parts of their game as they mature.

  Toronto has a better d-core than ours, and started with the majority of it prior to Shanahan coming in.  God, wish Benning could say the same.  We have Hutton back there...Thank you Gillis.   Guess we should thank him for Edler and Tanev too.  

  As for trolling, I like the conversation.  You have your point of view that our organisation is what the Eastern media says it is.  I hold true that we are getting to the tipping point of the organisation becoming something akin to Winnipeg.  You hold to your opinion, I'll hold to mine, and we'll argue and maybe be able to persuade each other that the other one is right.  Makes for some entertainment during a long slow summer when the most entertaining thing going on is whether Tampa will put the ring on Karlsson.

[oldnews]

19 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

2019 Stanley Cup - Odds to Win

 

NHL

Winner

• Toronto Maple Leafs +700

Last year your Bodog boys had Edmonton winning the Stanley Cup. 

 

Just sayin'

 

You're believing in a fool's game.

[oldnews]

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

that represents your viewpoint succintly.  a picture is worth a 1000 Willes' words lol.

 

I'd ask who that is beside you and rugby, but I think I just answered my own question.

[Solinar]

  I understand where people are coming from.  Vancouver is the suck, and Toronto is now the toast of the east and contenders for the cup.  For the first time in over 50 years of rebuilding, they can finally say they have a team that should be sipping from Lord Stanley's cup, and they'll have done it faster than any other canadian team since 93.  Good on them.  They had a plan, told everyone what it was, held to it, and have stuck the landing....so far.  It was bold, it was thorough, it still hasn't garnered the desired results.  Doesn't mean it won't, doesn't mean it will.  

  Winnipeg has a plan.  They've stuck to it.  Have one of the best systems in the league, with plenty of quality prospects and players.  I'd argue that they were set for success, and then hit a hot goaltender and bam, out.  2 years time they'll be dismantling, retooling, revamping, etc to fit in the 'core' players and carry on, not as strong as they were before.

  Edmonton was supposed to win the cup last year...They 'have' a plan??  Maybe.  Plan is hoping the forwards can outscore their defensive and goalie issues.  Maybe?

  Calgary has a stud backend, a decent goalie, and some intriguing forwards.  They have a plan!  They failed at it miserably last year and then boldly addressed it.  Huge question marks remain, but on paper, they are stronger than ever...Still not enough to be the toast of Canada.

  Ottawa is like the Joker, he hates people with all their plans!  They just do things!  Joker laughs as the world burns around him.

  Montreal is like your ex.  She's still hot, but she lies to you all the time.  Sometimes you remember all the good times, so many good times, and she's hot.  Then she lies to you again and breaks your heart.

  Vancouver...it has a plan, it throws the plan away, tries to catch the paper in the wind.  It boldly goes where everyone has gone before, to the same results.  But slowly but surely it seems to be doing things right, before a retro decision making session kind of throws wrenches everywhere.  Then it recorrects.  Vancouver doesn't tell you what its really doing, and seemingly does things to do things.  But the structure that is being implemented, if you look at it under a long term kind of view does make sense.  Vancouver lies to you and seems to have to do the things you want them to do only under duress of common sense finally forcing their hand.  Doesn't mean we won't get to the finish line.  Just means we will take longer.  But from a player development and scouting side of things, glad to see all the improvements we've made since Gillis, who made a lot of the first steps that have made this possible.

  I can see us being about 3 years behind where we could have been from a pure tear down rebuild perspective.  I'm sure that's frustrating.  On the other hand, already sat thru 40 years of pain, what's a few more.  At least this time we seem to be building an organisational approach that seems that it'll continue to grow, rather than hoping and gambling.

[oldnews]

I actually feel bad on a certain level for the Leafs fanbase.

 

They are being peddled some insane expectations - of a 120 pt season and inside track to the Stanley Cup.  And a lot of them will probably buy it.

 

For a market that has woefully underachieved for......it's even hard for oldtimers to remember the last time they achieved.....is this really the measured optimism that would be far more rational under the circumstances?

 

Make no mistake - I'll thoroughly enjoy it if that media market once again proves to be a bunch of premature, delusional fluffers.

 

But for the paper bag crowd that has been waiting forever......I think they'd be far better served by some 'experts' that point out what the rosters of teams like Tampa, Nashville, Winnipeg, Washington, Columbus etc look like - and stop encouraging Leafs fans not to gaze beyond a group of 4 forwards.  Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Nylander may be among the best core of forwards in the NHL - but teams win Championships, not 2/3 of two lines.

 

Do the Leafs have the supporting cast to take that group to a SC?   The one thing that would give me optimism as a Leafs fan would be what Babcock is capable of making out of an insufficient group like Reilly, Gardiner, Hainsey, Zaitsev....He's shown that he can put lip stick on it - but realistically, they're still asking too much of him. 

They couldn't get beyond a one line team in Boston, that had a hobbling 1C - and got destroyed by Tampa in the next round.  That was with an arguably better supporting cast than they now have.   Certainly having the luxury of avoiding a Bergeron - Matthews matchup will help - but beyond that, the Leafs supporting cast lost their leading scorer (JVR), their leading grit and hitters (Komarov, Polak), their best two way center of their last five years (Bozak)....I'm not sure where those replacements are quite yet.

 

That management group needs to give Babcock more to work with than one Tavares - I'm not sure they have the assets or cap flexibility to do so without mortgaging even more of their future.

 

So - even as a lover and not a hater - I'd have a real hard time selling that fanbase on a Stanley Cup favorite story.  That, imo, is premature koolaid that should be reserved for delusional homerz like us on message boardz.