Ottawa hides its carbon tax math while Saskatchewan crunches the numbers

[Ryan Strome]

21 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes because its under the National Post opinion section. 

 

That is a cop out imo Rob. Our footprint belongs to us. We own what we do.  If you can provide me with a moral or humanistic argument why Canadian citizens deserve to contribute more per person I'd love to hear it. 

 

Now on the concept of whether or not another tax is the way to curb emissions thats another discussion, but we do need to curb them. I don't see anything coming out of Sask that is doing anything else, just cost statements and resistance to anything Liberal. I'm from there originally and my parents still live there so I do know something about the place. 

Now it makes sense why you hate the NDP.

[Lancaster]

4 hours ago, Warhippy said:

And?

 

Personally I am not going to sit here and pretend the carbon recapture idiots have better arithmetic abilities than the feds.  They're all idiots.

 

But

 

I am going to sit here and state flat out that continuing to play divisive politics in the face of obvious crap hitting the climate fan is essentially going to kill off my kids or grandkids and that is not something I will allow.

 

if Canada only accounts for 1.6% of the global issue than ifs bring it down to 1% and be a leader about it and stop fn whining.

 

I don't want to hear about numbers anymore because one side is claiming the other is out to lunch while the truth is they are bloody identical and have lied about the same things.

 

Shut up.  Get to work.  Fix the issues.

But logically speaking, it's nearly impossible for Canada to reduce its carbon footprint.  

For all intent and purposes, the population growth of Canada is similar to those of developing nations. 

Countries such as France, Germany, and other developed nations.... their population growth has stagnated or even declined.  Japan's carbon footprint by just doing nothing and having their population decrease, so it's not really fair to have a broad expectations without accounting for independent factors.  

 

The onus for protecting the environment should be placed on countries with higher population growth, high rate of industrialization, and low environmental standards.  

[JM_]

18 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

It didn't get under my skin. The government withholding pages and having some pages redacted is not new news to me I heard this a while back. However, that shady move by the government did get under my skin.

shady? you need to google FOI requests, redactions are common. There's nothing out of the ordinary at all about that. This is why I found this opinion piece so annoying, it takes the normal practice of FOI redactions and makes it seems sinister. 

[JM_]

18 minutes ago, Violator said:

Still from the canadian taxpayers federation.They generally have legitamate complaints that this is just another tax grab with no actual benefit

so a taxpayer federation doesn't like a tax. Colour me shocked. 

[Ryan Strome]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

shady? you need to google FOI requests, redactions are common. There's nothing out of the ordinary at all about that. This is why I found this opinion piece so annoying, it takes the normal practice of FOI redactions and makes it seems sinister. 

But why would they be hiding this particular file? I could understand if it was the military or other secretive files but I can only think of one reason why they would hide this. It's a BS tax that will hurt economies.

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, coolboarder said:

All for the reason to vote out Libs and vote for any party that would allow for province to decide for themselves, not the federal.  

lol, you think any party is going to willingly give up billions in taxes?

 

Not likely.  Taxes are like hoodies to a girl you're dating.  once it's in their hands you'll never get it back

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

If you want to fix the issues, then build some pipelines and stop unethical/politically motivated oil.   Start funding cleaner fuel options as fossil fuel based engines can be less harmful to enviro than any other alternative if the reduction in emissions from 1970 to 2010 trend sustained to 2050.    That would be how to address this - not be playing politics which, agreed, are very divisive.   

Don't be so insulting as to use the term ethical oil.  We could be best friends and I'll immediately want to spit on anyone who uses that phrase

 

Otherwise no argument

[Ryan Strome]

7 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

lol, you think any party is going to willingly give up billions in taxes?

 

Not likely.  Taxes are like hoodies to a girl you're dating.  once it's in their hands you'll never get it back

Don't be so insulting as to use the term ethical oil.  We could be best friends and I'll immediately want to spit on anyone who uses that phrase

 

Otherwise no argument

Well the conservatives have opposed a carbon tax and Scheer has said he will repeal it. @coolboarder is right though Ottawa shouldn't be dictating and forcing this on provinces. Liberals always believe in governments centralized around Ottawa. 

[JM_]

16 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

But why would they be hiding this particular file? I could understand if it was the military or other secretive files but I can only think of one reason why they would hide this. It's a BS tax that will hurt economies.

because they can pretty much. The majority of all document types are redacted. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/07/08/ottawa-censors-majority-of-access-to-information-requests.html

 

redaction isn't evidence of anything. Hey i get it, prairie conservatives don't like things that impact the oil biz. Thats pretty much the only fact in the article, the rest is speculation. 

[coolboarder]

12 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

lol, you think any party is going to willingly give up billions in taxes?

 

Not likely.  Taxes are like hoodies to a girl you're dating.  once it's in their hands you'll never get it back

Don't be so insulting as to use the term ethical oil.  We could be best friends and I'll immediately want to spit on anyone who uses that phrase

 

Otherwise no argument

I wouldn't know about it.  Conservatives might remove that.  Will find out their platform on taxes issues once election is called.  As for NDP, they favor that tax as they need to collect as much taxes and spending.  Green would be in favor for environmental reasons and Conservatives is well known for cutting taxes and cutting spending as been done in their history. They cut from 7% GST to 5%. Liberals always have been introducing new taxes and sometimes increasing taxes. GST was one of the example by Liberals.  

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

because they can pretty much. The majority of all document types are redacted. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/07/08/ottawa-censors-majority-of-access-to-information-requests.html

 

redaction isn't evidence of anything. Hey i get it, prairie conservatives don't like things that impact the oil biz. Thats pretty much the only fact in the article, the rest is speculation. 

Many industries in BC don't support a carbon tax. Why you keep picking on Alberta and Saskatchewan? Ontario overwhelming voted in a guy who staunchly opposes a carbon tax. Ontario industries will also be hurt. I can't even understand how you or anyone actually can support a carbon tax. It fixes nothing and hurts Canadians and the Canadian economy.

 

You do realize investment is down in Canada and this will only make it worse and has the potential to kill our farming industry. How on earth can Canadian farmers compete with American farmers?

[Ryan Strome]

3 minutes ago, coolboarder said:

I wouldn't know about it.  Conservatives might remove that.  Will find out their platform on taxes issues once election is called.  As for NDP, they favor that tax as they need to collect as much taxes and spending.  Green would be in favor for environmental reasons and Conservatives is well known for cutting taxes and cutting spending as been done in their history. They cut from 7% GST to 5%. Liberals always have been introducing new taxes and sometimes increasing taxes. GST was one of the example by Liberals.  

Nah unfortunately that was the old PC's under Brian Mulroney. Liberals promised to scrap it but never did.

[coolboarder]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Nah unfortunately that was the old PC's under Brian Mulroney. Liberals promised to scrap it but never did.

Thank you for the correction.  Liberals liked that taxes and kept it which they broke their promise.   It is better not to promise anything that you do not intend to keep.  

[Ryan Strome]

4 minutes ago, coolboarder said:

Thank you for the correction.  Liberals liked that taxes and kept it which they broke their promise.   It is better not to promise anything that you do not intend to keep.  

Thats a liberal trademark.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

University of Regina is an opinion piece?  Is that what people in Canada think now?   Jimmy - there is a lot more to this than opinion and the redaction speaks volumes.   You know full well Canada's contribution is statistically insignificant.    This is simply political pandering at its worst and it doesn't impact those with deep pockets whatsover so is one of the more punitive politic agendas in current memory.    

Rob, I believe you'd be making a very huge mistake if you think Jimmy's opinions and the way he presents them represents Canada. I'd like to believe that people here try to reach out to the other side and engage in reasonable discourse.

[Violator]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

so a taxpayer federation doesn't like a tax. Colour me shocked. 

They dont mind taxes just not ones that arent gonna change anything.

[DonLever]

3 hours ago, coolboarder said:

 Conservatives is well known for cutting taxes and cutting spending as been done in their history. They cut from 7% GST to 5%. Liberals always have been introducing new taxes and sometimes increasing taxes.

Really?    We certainly did not see any of that in the last election.  Maybe if they offered to cut taxes they may have be re-elected.   Instead they went on and on about head coverings in citizen ceremonies.   One of the worst campaigns I ever seen.

[Rob_Zepp]

11 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes because its under the National Post opinion section. 

 

That is a cop out imo Rob. Our footprint belongs to us. We own what we do.  If you can provide me with a moral or humanistic argument why Canadian citizens deserve to contribute more per person I'd love to hear it. 

 

Now on the concept of whether or not another tax is the way to curb emissions thats another discussion, but we do need to curb them. I don't see anything coming out of Sask that is doing anything else, just cost statements and resistance to anything Liberal. I'm from there originally and my parents still live there so I do know something about the place. 

Jimmy, the footprint totally belongs to those that make it but it needs to have a balance to the approach.   Further, wouldn't you agree that the overall global footprint has to be considered as well?   In that context, shipping Alberta oil to Asia has LESS overall GHG impact than Asia using middle east oil.....don't we owe that to the global issue too?

 

Canadian's should contribute a lot to the world but political pandering isn't in that list.   Curbing emissions is best addressed by improved technology on the emissions, more humans per vehicle mile (transit) and life-cycle considerations to energy that is used.   A carbon tax does not help any of those - in particular when the collecting agent (in this case, the Federal Government) obfuscates the cost-benefit evaluation.    

 

I don't view this as a "pro or anti" Liberal thing at all.  I would be one of the last people to vote NDP, for example, and it is an NDP government in Sask that is raising the most logical resistance to this.   It was a Liberal government in BC that pushed harder than even the Federal Liberals until the Climate champion lady showed up in Cabinet.   

 

Canada can contribute a lot to the global stage and indeed punch above its weight but blindly following some rhetoric that only taxes people but does not have real benefit to the actual issue is not how to lead on this file IMHO.   

[Rob_Zepp]

11 hours ago, Warhippy said:

 

Don't be so insulting as to use the term ethical oil.  We could be best friends and I'll immediately want to spit on anyone who uses that phrase

 

Otherwise no argument

Apologies for insulting you.   Do have better term for oil that comes from democratic governments with fare wages, worker safety standards that keep people safe and stringent environmental policies versus areas of the world that practice none of these?    It is a term borrowed from the diamond industry....happy to adopt another one that differentiates regions if you have one handy.   I view those things as "ethics" but, again, happy to adjust.   

[Rob_Zepp]

10 hours ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Rob, I believe you'd be making a very huge mistake if you think Jimmy's opinions and the way he presents them represents Canada. I'd like to believe that people here try to reach out to the other side and engage in reasonable discourse.

I find Jimmy one of the most level-headed opinions in many areas on CDC.   We all have our areas of more or less "bias" but I find Jimmy reasonable with me in all our "discourses" so not sure why that isn't the case for yourself.   We (Jimmy and I) don't always agree but I never feel as though he isn't considering what I say in the same manner I always give his input consideration.

 

Cheers   

[JM_]

11 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

Many industries in BC don't support a carbon tax. Why you keep picking on Alberta and Saskatchewan? Ontario overwhelming voted in a guy who staunchly opposes a carbon tax. Ontario industries will also be hurt. I can't even understand how you or anyone actually can support a carbon tax. It fixes nothing and hurts Canadians and the Canadian economy.

 

You do realize investment is down in Canada and this will only make it worse and has the potential to kill our farming industry. How on earth can Canadian farmers compete with American farmers?

oh come on, really? lets move away from the hyperbole.