[Discussion] Starting line-up and Waiver Concerns

[smithers joe]

if goldobin doesn't work out, they can always move or wave him and bring pettersson up to take his spot. 

if granlund doesn't work out, they could call up dahlen.

if they could move ericksson's contract, they could call up lind. 

if tanev gets injured, the could call up hughes. 

del zotto place sitting for juolevi. 

gudbranson place sitting for woo.

i so want to see gadjovich line up with bo and brock;  leipsic with gaudette and lind.  that would leave pettersson with dahlen and virtanen to round out the top nine. 

my formula for success would have, on each line, a scorer, playmaker and a mucker. each line would also have at least 2/3 good defensive forwards on them. 

imo, green has to create his line ups to house those elements. 

i think skating has improved immensely the past 2 years. 

[lmm]

19 hours ago, timberz21 said:

Every year, people are concerned of losing players to waiver but we never do.   The only exception was Corrado, which wasn't really a loss.

 

The fact is every team has some Motte, McEneny, McEwen or Sautner in their pipeline and every team will put similar player to waivers.  So, all the stars need to be aligned for one of our players to get claimed on waivers.   If it happens, I highly doubt we give away anything more than a 4th liner or depth defenseman.  We won't lose any Wayne Gretzky's on waiver.

 

People need to realize that these players need to stay in the NHL if a teams claimed them...if these guys can't make one of the worst line-up in hockey...who is really going to pick them up???

 

Classic overreaction/overhyped prospects.  Benning won't lose any sleep over this.

I think this bears repeating,

if these guys can't make one of the worst line-up in hockey...who is really going to pick them up???

 

[JM_]

23 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

In the mean time, do you have any concerns of loosing Goldobin, Motte, MacEwen, McEneny or Sautner? Do you see this happening? Do you see Pettersson and Hughes starting the season with the Canucks (not do you want them to, but will they?)…..((I want them to...just don't see it happening)

 

Does anyone else see it this way, does anyone else have these concerns? (it is a nice problem)

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts...…………...

honestly Jan, waivers is the least of the issues we need to be concerned about. Showing up to camp in shape, ready to compete is a big part of the NHL now. If one of these guys isn't putting in the time then we don't need them, or if they did and couldn't win a spot then we're better off without them. None of these guys would get us a significant pick or prospect back either. 

[EdgarM]

22 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

Unless traded, these guys will be in the starting lineup:

 

F - Baertchi, Horvat, Boeser, Eriksson, Gagner, Granlund, Sutter, Roussel, Beagle, Schaller, Virtanen, ________

D - Edler, Tanev, Stecher, Gudbranson, Hutton, Del Zotto, Pouliot

G - Markstrom, Nilsson

 

Maybe Pettersson takes the last F spot? Hopefully they can make room for Quinn and Olli too. 

I believe this to be the most likely line up as well barring any new acquisitions from now until the start of the season. 

Petterson may be the only one with a starting job with OJ and QH first call ups barring injuries or if DP and/or BH cannot improve from last year.

However, Demko may force Nilsson out of a job more sooner rather then later.

[J.I.A.H.N]

38 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

honestly Jan, waivers is the least of the issues we need to be concerned about. Showing up to camp in shape, ready to compete is a big part of the NHL now. If one of these guys isn't putting in the time then we don't need them, or if they did and couldn't win a spot then we're better off without them. None of these guys would get us a significant pick or prospect back either. 

Probably right Jim...…….

 

I guess what I am reacting to is that most 4th lines are a place where your rookies come in and cut their teeth, learning with less minutes in a shelter environment

but in the Canucks case, they went out and signed 3 solid 4th liners, that are basically in the prime of their careers, and will be very hard to move out of their

roles and responsibilities...…...

 

This then makes the 2nd and 3rd lines where they have to compete for their jobs, now that is ok for elite players, but for those rookies that need to be eased into 

the line up with lesser minutes, that isn't the right spot to do it...…..

 

So, even though we may like Goldobin or Dahlen at the LW spot, they can't get into the line up until they are better than say, Baertschi, and how would we know 

anyways, if Baertschi is always in that position and we can't see the 2 prospects in a lesser role against NHL quality competition.....not being challenged can cause

stagnation and retard development...…..

 

So, we end up trying to make a intelligent decision within the time frame of a 2 week training camp...…….I think that enlarges the margin of error.

 

I think it is a problem, Benning may have inadvertently caused...…..but we shall see!

[Schmautzie]

4 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

That was an issue with Sovintersport, Larionov didn't want them getting money from his salary so he went to play in Switzerland for a year. 

When he returned to the NHL I assume he was a UFA. There was an ex-Canuck that Florida let go on the waiver wire. Grabner.

 

As I recall he was still Canuck property when he returned from his year in Switzerland. He was inexplicably put on waivers the next year and claimed by San Jose. 

[theo5789]

5 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Probably right Jim...…….

 

I guess what I am reacting to is that most 4th lines are a place where your rookies come in and cut their teeth, learning with less minutes in a shelter environment

but in the Canucks case, they went out and signed 3 solid 4th liners, that are basically in the prime of their careers, and will be very hard to move out of their

roles and responsibilities...…...

 

This then makes the 2nd and 3rd lines where they have to compete for their jobs, now that is ok for elite players, but for those rookies that need to be eased into 

the line up with lesser minutes, that isn't the right spot to do it...…..

 

So, even though we may like Goldobin or Dahlen at the LW spot, they can't get into the line up until they are better than say, Baertschi, and how would we know 

anyways, if Baertschi is always in that position and we can't see the 2 prospects in a lesser role against NHL quality competition.....not being challenged can cause

stagnation and retard development...…..

 

So, we end up trying to make a intelligent decision within the time frame of a 2 week training camp...…….I think that enlarges the margin of error.

 

I think it is a problem, Benning may have inadvertently caused...…..but we shall see!

I don't see many teams doing the 4th line development route. Most teams try to develop players where they see fit in the long term through their farm system as that is the purpose of it and like you say, the more elite ones will get the opportunity to develop on the NHL teams in the roles they are suited for.

 

I'd say most teams roll 4 lines now so every line is important to the team's success, so not a lot of room to try and groom players. The teams that have strong lines and can limit minutes on the 4th line are teams that usually throw a bunch of energy guys there rather than putting in their prospects.

 

With that said, the team can shelter players without being on the "4th line". Look at how the Sedins were deployed last season. The fact that we signed the guys we did does not hurt any prospect development as they are players that play the hard minutes allowing the prospects to grow at their pace. The prospects that we would like to see are not taking any of the spots from the guys we just signed anyway. So we have strengthened the team where it was weak and have built competition in spots that the prospects need to be driven to earn.

 

Even if the opening lineup starts out a certain way, throughout the season, the lines are often juggled or injuries will occur and it is up to whoever that gets an opportunity to take it and run.

[smithers joe]

4 hours ago, Schmautzie said:

As I recall he was still Canuck property when he returned from his year in Switzerland. He was inexplicably put on waivers the next year and claimed by San Jose. 

the canucks felt they should pay something to the russian federation for larinov. igor refused to sign with the canucks if they paid russia anything. 

[Goal:thecup]

The "Benning said he would move vets if the yutes earned their spots in the lineup" thing is bandied about here like it is some rule JB must adhere to for some reason.

 

Even if a top prospect shows well before the season and seems to earn a spot, JB doesn't have to open a spot for him on opening day.

 

If anyone is worried about waivers, all you have to do is start as many exempt players as you need to down on the farm.

 

Even though the prospect pipeline is filling up nicely does not mean we should lose anybody unless it has already been determined that the team is not moving forward with that player.

 

While it is usually a frenzy as teams get down to size, there is still the whole summer to structure deals and trades without being forced into a bad return during the last two weeks.

[The Beagle had landed]

When was the last time we as fans were so unsure and speculative about the last 3 roster spots?

 

Say what you want about Jim Benning, but he's restocked our prospect pool with a plethora of top 9 talent while adding depth and grit, creating internal competition while still having over $10M in cap space.

 

Yes, our defense is still a bit of a question mark, and we're probably not making the playoffs this year, but being a die hard Canuck fan has always been about being patient, and I've never been more excited and enthralled as to what the future has in store for this group that our GM has brought together.

 

Thank you Jim Benning for instilling hope in not only me, but other fans with common sense and logic as to the vision you're seeing through.

 

*Slams Beer*

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, The Beagle had landed said:

When was the last time we as fans were so unsure and speculative about the last 3 roster spots?

 

Say what you want about Jim Benning, but he's restocked our prospect pool with a plethora of top 9 talent while adding depth and grit, creating internal competition while still having over $10M in cap space.

 

Yes, our defense is still a bit of a question mark, and we're probably not making the playoffs this year, but being a die hard Canuck fan has always been about being patient, and I've never been more excited and enthralled as to what the future has in store for this group that our GM has brought together.

 

Thank you Jim Benning for instilling hope in not only me, but other fans with common sense and logic as to the vision you're seeing through.

 

*Slams Beer*

Yes, JB has done a fabulous job.  We need Demko to become our starter, so the team can win.  

[Gaudette Celly]

14 hours ago, smithers joe said:

if goldobin doesn't work out, they can always move or wave him and bring pettersson up to take his spot.

1. Goldobin is going to earn a spot over Petterson?

2. If the best prospect outside of the NHL cannot crack the roster of a bottom-6 team, something is seriously wrong.

 

Hard to put this more emphatically -- Elias Pettersson will be on the Canucks' opening night roster.

[wallstreetamigo]

On 10/07/2018 at 10:57 AM, StealthNuck said:

I can't really say this is a team I'm excited to watch.

If we see Pettersson and Gaudette instead of Gagner and Granlund and Hughes instead of Hutton or Del Zotto, I can get on board much easier lol.

 

I still think Goldobin could be a good offensive contributor with Bo and Brock but only if a bit more sheltered with ozone starts. I think we all know it is very likely Goldobin is gone though.

 

Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser

Eriksson-Gaudette-Pettersson

Roussel-Sutter-Virtanen

Schaller-Beagle-Leipsic

Goldobin (if he stays)

 

Use the first two lines offensively (and shelter that 2nd line a bit with Sedin-like ozone starts at least at first) and the last 2 lines for defensive zone and shutdown duties. These two could also be decent secondary scoring if configured properly.

 

On defense:

Hughes-Tanev

Edler-Gudbranson

Hutton/Del Zotto-Stecher

Pouliot

 

PP 1 - 4 forward unit

Boeser-Horvat-Eriksson

Hughes-Pettersson

 

PP 2

Baertschi-Gaudette-Virtanen

Edler-Stecher

 

I think line deployment and getting those young kids into offensive roles is a key to this team being exciting to watch again as it will let them play with the pace Green wants.

[CanucksJay]

On 2018-07-10 at 2:18 PM, Rob_Zepp said:

Who are they going to waive to make it happen?   Perhaps Canucks like that player better.   Point is, I still think it is at best a hypothetical concern.   Name a key Canuck lost to waivers in their entire near 50 year history.   Why on earth would that history change this year?

 

This is my predicted lineup

 

Baerstchi Horvat Boeser

Petterson Sutter Eriksson

Virtanen Gagner Granlund

Schaller Beagle Rousell

Leipsic/Gaunce

 

I believe the battle will be for the 2 spots on 3rd line and the extra forward. 

It will be between the RFAs that have a 1 year contract, Gagner and the Rookies. 

I have Petterson making the team. 

 

So the battle for 2 spots and a 13th man (3 positions total)  is Gagner, Granlund, Gaunce, Leipsic, Goldobin, Gaudette, Dahlen

 

Unless Gaudette and Dahlen blow the doors off at camp, I think Benning will send them down.One of Leipsic and Gaunce may get sent down as well.

Unfortunately for Goldy, his lack of defence might be a reason why he is waived. He doesn't produce enough offensively to shelter him in an offensive role but he also is not good enough defensively to play with him players like Virtanen who doesn't have enough hockey IQ to cover for him or Gagner who is not strong enough defensively to cover him.

I see Goldobin as a great fit to Virtanen and Gaudette in 2 years time when all 3 are developed and play a strong 2 way game but there isn't a fit currently.

 

[Brobidus]

2 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser

Eriksson-Gaudette-Pettersson

Roussel-Sutter-Virtanen

Schaller-Beagle-Leipsic

Goldobin (if he stays)

Green seems to be reluctant to put two rookies together on a single line. That's partially why vets get overplayed and rookies find it hard to get into the line-up. So I don't really see Gaudette and Pettersson on the same line. One of them could possibly be on a line with Virtanen though, since Green now knows approximately what he can expect from Jake. 

I also don't see any of the veteran free agency pickups (Gagner, MDZ) being left out of a spot. This might be more of an image thing. If they play some of their free agents in bad spots despite their good play (Gagner was great at the end of the season), then it might deter others from signing. 

Also, Green seemed to hint that they would try Pettersson at every position, and that apparently Benning sees him as a pivot in the future. I think Pettersson is going to get a couple of games at center to start off with before giving others a look. 

Goldobin/Leipsic - Horvat - Boeser

Baertschi - Pettersson - Eriksson
Roussel - Sutter - Virtanen/Gagner
Schaller - Beagle - Gagner/Virtanen

Goldobin/Leipsic, Gaunce, Granlund

Pettersson surrounded with veteran leadership, defensive prowess and top 6 talent. Goldobin/Leipsic given that chance to succeed on the top line. I feel like Gaunce is going to get sent down to Utica. In an ideal world I'd prefer to have Granlund on a line with Roussel and Sutter though. That could be our shut-down line and Virtanen to be on a line with more potential to score and Granlund has good chemistry with Sutter. So we'd have our Dorsett - Sutter- Granlund shutdown line back.

On another note. I love prospects, and I adore being part of a winning group. I think if Hughes goes back to Michigan and plays with his brother, it'll give him the chance to elevate his game to the point where he would be the undisputed best defenseman prospect next year (Dahlin, Heiskanen retire the prospect status). That will give us something great to brag about, it would give us a great story for the end of the year and it will be better for Hughes because he gets to avoid the transition. The Sedins retiring means we need a change of leadership, we need guys to show up and grab spots and most of all we need some of these veteran contracts to expire (MDZ, Hutton, Edler, Nilsson, Gagner,...). I think next season is prime time for him to come in. And instead give a spot to Juolevi this year. We need him to take it more than we need Hughes to take it. I see this as the last year of sucking before we start moving up in the stands. 

 

Edler - Stecher
Juolevi - Tanev

MDZ - Gudbranson

Pouliot - Biega - Hutton

 

Waivers:

If no trades happen from now to the start of the season then I see us going with 14 forwards and 7 defensemen. Either way, one forward or one defenseman will get waived (Goldobin/Leipsic/Hutton/Pouilot/Biega are the prime candidates).

I think we could easily send down Gaunce and Granlund with minimal risk. I don't see other GM's being too keen on grabbing a guy who has scared one goal with his stick (the rest with his feet), nor Granlund who had a bit of a down year. Goldobin/Leipsic would be claimed.
I think Hutton would be taken if waived (but that wouldn't be too big of a problem if he were), and Biega could probably go down without any worries. Pouliot would be picked up for pedigree alone. I could see a guy like Shero wanting him in NJ. 
 

[Rob_Zepp]

7 hours ago, Hutton Wink said:

1. Goldobin is going to earn a spot over Petterson?

2. If the best prospect outside of the NHL cannot crack the roster of a bottom-6 team, something is seriously wrong.

 

Hard to put this more emphatically -- Elias Pettersson will be on the Canucks' opening night roster.

Try call CAPS like you are shouting. 

[SingleThorn]

4 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

I just looked at the entire roster. Man, I don't even know if the Canucks plan on re-signing Goldobin.

 

This is my predicted lineup

 

Baerstchi Horvat Boeser

Petterson Sutter Eriksson

Virtanen Gagner Granlund

Schaller Beagle Rousell

Leipsic/Gaunce

 

I believe the battle will be for the 2 spots on 3rd line and the extra forward. 

It will be between the RFAs that have a 1 year contract, Gagner and the Rookies. 

I have Petterson making the team.

 I also didn't add Goldy because I don't know if he'll get signed. I can't see him in a 3rd line role and I don't see him displacing Baerstchi, Petterson or Eriksson in the top 6.

 

So the battle for 2 spots and a 13th man (3 positions total)  is Gagner, Granlund, Gaunce, Leipsic, Gaudette, Dahlen

 

Unless Gaudette and Dahlen blow the doors off at camp, I think Benning will send them down.One of Leipsic and Gaunce may get sent down as well.

Unfortunately for Goldy, his lack of defence will be why he is not signed. He doesn't produce enough offensively to shelter him in an offensive role but he also is not good enough defensively to play with him players like Virtanen who doesn't have enough hockey IQ to cover for him or Gagner who is not strong enough defensively to cover him.

I see Goldobin as a great fit to Virtanen and Gaudette in 2 years time when all 3 are developed and play a strong 2 way game but there isn't a fit currently.

 

Think you're worrying too much about re-signing Goldobin. It's a problem that has a year to work itself out. No need to panic.

 

He will have to pass through waivers. Maybe a bit of a worry moment !

[CanucksJay]

1 hour ago, SingleThorn said:

Think you're worrying too much about re-signing Goldobin. It's a problem that has a year to work itself out. No need to panic.

 

He will have to pass through waivers. Maybe a bit of a worry moment !

Oh wow, I didn't realize he was signed. Yes add him to the list of competitors fighting for a spot 

[smithers joe]

16 hours ago, theo5789 said:

I don't see many teams doing the 4th line development route. Most teams try to develop players where they see fit in the long term through their farm system as that is the purpose of it and like you say, the more elite ones will get the opportunity to develop on the NHL teams in the roles they are suited for.

 

I'd say most teams roll 4 lines now so every line is important to the team's success, so not a lot of room to try and groom players. The teams that have strong lines and can limit minutes on the 4th line are teams that usually throw a bunch of energy guys there rather than putting in their prospects.

 

With that said, the team can shelter players without being on the "4th line". Look at how the Sedins were deployed last season. The fact that we signed the guys we did does not hurt any prospect development as they are players that play the hard minutes allowing the prospects to grow at their pace. The prospects that we would like to see are not taking any of the spots from the guys we just signed anyway. So we have strengthened the team where it was weak and have built competition in spots that the prospects need to be driven to earn.

 

Even if the opening lineup starts out a certain way, throughout the season, the lines are often juggled or injuries will occur and it is up to whoever that gets an opportunity to take it and run.

i think it depends on what they lack at the start of their careers. horvat became a more complete player by learning the defensive game his first year. you wouldn't put pettersson down there, but players like virtanen, lind, gaudette and goldy might become better all around players by starting there. 

[Gaudette Celly]

4 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Try call CAPS like you are shouting. 

That would be next,and/or bolding.  But, feel it shouldn't be necessary at this point.  Where's Rollieo and his "lock" schtick?