tas Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 I was browsing through some Canucks records and came across the list of all-time game-winning goals. I knew Daniel was at the top, and I knew it would be by a fair margin, but I was shocked at the gap: Daniel - 86, Naslund - 49. Then I started thinking, "86? That's an awful lot for a guy with fewer than 400 career goals." So I took a bit of a look through the numbers. Looking at the list of NHL all-time GWG leaders, none of them could stack up as a percentage of career goals. After digging a bit deeper, what I determined is that of all players that have scored at least 250 career goals, only Canadiens great Aurèle Joliat, who won games with 65 of his 269 goals in the 1920s and '30s, had a higher percentage of game winners than Daniel. Now, one could make the argument that having more game-winners in general, regardless of whether or not there are also more non-game-winners, would qualify as more clutch. They're still ending more games on their stick, right? Guys like Jagr, Howe, Esposito, Selanne and many others have more GWG than Daniel, while also having far more career goals. Personally, though, I've always viewed "clutchness" as a measurement of timely production relative to talent level. Guys I've thought of as clutch always seemed to outperform their expectations when it mattered most. Maybe the crux of the argument is that true "clutchness" doesn't reveal itself until the playoffs, making the premise of this thread entirely pointless. Oh, and for the record: Daniel's 86 game-winners were out of 393 career goals, which works out to, of course, 22%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Thanks for this. I love random hockey facts that include some historical perspective. Out of curiosity, how many of Joliat's game winning goals were assisted by his twin brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, tas said: I was browsing through some Canucks records and came across the list of all-time game-winning goals. I knew Daniel was at the top, and I knew it would be by a fair margin, but I was shocked at the gap: Daniel - 86, Naslund - 49. Then I started thinking, "86? That's an awful lot for a guy with fewer than 400 career goals." So I took a bit of a look through the numbers. Looking at the list of NHL all-time GWG leaders, none of them could stack up as a percentage of career goals. After digging a bit deeper, what I determined is that of all players that have scored at least 250 career goals, only Canadiens great Aurèle Joliat, who won games with 65 of his 269 goals in the 1920s and '30s, had a higher percentage of game winners than Daniel. Now, one could make the argument that having more game-winners in general, regardless of whether or not there are also more non-game-winners, would qualify as more clutch. They're still ending more games on their stick, right? Guys like Jagr, Howe, Esposito, Selanne and many others have more GWG than Daniel, while also having far more career goals. Personally, though, I've always viewed "clutchness" as a measurement of timely production relative to talent level. Guys I've thought of as clutch always seemed to outperform their expectations when it mattered most. Maybe the crux of the argument is that true "clutchness" doesn't reveal itself until the playoffs, making the premise of this thread entirely pointless. Oh, and for the record: Daniel's 86 game-winners were out of 393 career goals, which works out to, of course, 22%. Agree with the point about playoff clutchness. Vanek vs Williams, for instance. Cool stat though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 No. Game-winning goals are a stupid stat. If you score the goal that puts your team up 4-0, and then the other team scores three goals, you get the GWG. So, it is not a measure of 'clutchness' at all. It would only be so if GWG's were only counted when the score was tied and the goal won your team the game. The Sedins can't even hold a candle to the true clutch goal-scorers (Gretzky, Lemieux). Heck, they aren't even close to our team's best (Bure). When the Canucks absolutely needed a goal, Bure was the one to create one out of thin air, not Daniel Sedin. If you want to go further, Daniel wasn't even the clutch scorer on his line (that probably goes to Burrows). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Having a good percent of GWG is irrelevant and it doesn't mean you're "clutch". It's the timing of when you score them. For example, how many of Daniel's GWGs were of the portion of 5-3, 6-2, 3-1, etc that we were already leading in the game? For all we know, we could have been up 3-0 in one game, and then the opponent scored a late goal, which would make the second player who scored (Daniel) get the GWG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 The answer is always going to be Wayne Gretzky. I thought it was a cool stat though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Being clutch doesn't have anything to do with percentages, Being clutch means you score goals at timely instances, how many goals you score outside of game winners doesn't mean you're less clutch. For example last year Saad scored 18 goals and 8 of them were GWG (2 OT winners). While Mackinnon scored a total of 39 goals and 12 of them were GWG (4 OT winners) Would you say Saad was more clutch that Mackinnon last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanuck Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 hour ago, tas said: Maybe the crux of the argument is that true "clutchness" doesn't reveal itself until the playoffs, making the premise of this thread entirely pointless. Bingo! Clutch imo = playoffs. tas, would be interesting to know the all-time gwg for playoffs and more importantly series clinching scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 16 minutes ago, Toews said: The answer is always going to be Wayne Gretzky. I thought it was a cool stat though. I'd put Mike Bossy in the discussion. I've been a fan and student of the game, its players and its history since goalies didn't wear masks, players didn't wear helmets, all stick blades were straight and only five or six guys had perfected this new thing called a slapshot. Of all the players I've ever seen play, I would send Bossy out if I needed a goal. That's not to diminish the greatness of Gretzky, but merely to highlight a guy who played only ten years, but averaged 57 goals a season and had nine consecutive years of MORE than 50 goals. (In his final, injury-riddled season he slumped to 38 goals) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted July 14, 2018 Author Share Posted July 14, 2018 What if I told you that Daniel is also 3rd all-time in regular season overtime goals, and again accounting for a larger percentage of total goals scored than the other players around him on the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 As a huge fan of Sedin I'm going to say no. That 22% is impressive but like a poster said above, you could score the 4-0 goal and get the gwg if the other team scores 3 goals AFTER your "clutch?" Goal. Burrows was probably the most clutch on our team, the slaying the dragon was the most clutch goal I've seen from a Canuck since I started following them. Sedins are great but far from clutch, they actually seemed to fade away in those clutch moments which is a big reason we failed to win the cup in 2011. Kesler and Burrows couldn't do it on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 31 minutes ago, tas said: What if I told you that Daniel is also 3rd all-time in regular season overtime goals, and again accounting for a larger percentage of total goals scored than the other players around him on the list? Regular season downy have many clutch moments unless it's the end of the year fighting for position. Playoffs is where you have your clutch moments and the Sedins just couldn't carry that greatness into the playoffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted July 14, 2018 Author Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Brock Botanen said: Regular season downy have many clutch moments unless it's the end of the year fighting for position. Playoffs is where you have your clutch moments and the Sedins just couldn't carry that greatness into the playoffs Somebody has to provide the clutch moments to GET IN to the playoffs. I'd argue that Daniel's clutchness would have carried over if the rules didn't change in the postseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 minute ago, tas said: Somebody has to provide the clutch moments to GET IN to the playoffs. I'd argue that Daniel's clutchness would have carried over if the rules didn't change in the postseason. I sound like a Sedin hater and I am very far from it, but you have to adjust for the crash and bang playoffs. We were the best team in hockey 2 consecutive years and a big reason for that was the Sedins, but when we needed them most they were easily shut down and we failed to win the cup. If they were so clutch they would of found a way to be clutch for just 1 game (game 7 vs Bruins). Instead we were shutout on home ice, and swept out of round 1 the following year. We've been rebuilding ever since Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drive-By Body Pierce Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 22% of the time, it works every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 45 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said: I'd put Mike Bossy in the discussion. I've been a fan and student of the game, its players and its history since goalies didn't wear masks, players didn't wear helmets, all stick blades were straight and only five or six guys had perfected this new thing called a slapshot. Of all the players I've ever seen play, I would send Bossy out if I needed a goal. That's not to diminish the greatness of Gretzky, but merely to highlight a guy who played only ten years, but averaged 57 goals a season and had nine consecutive years of MORE than 50 goals. (In his final, injury-riddled season he slumped to 38 goals) Not to diminish the greatness that is Bossy (who I did unfortunately see live against my Canucks in the 1982 playoffs....) but a guy like Rick Vaive also had three seasons of 50+ goals during this hockey period. I'll have to give it some thought as to who'd I'd want in that situation. To borrow a line from Pat Riley..... "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." hmmmm....now who would be my hockey equivalents to Jordan & Bird. Lots of possibilities (eg., Rocket Richard, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crobar Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, Brock Botanen said: I sound like a Sedin hater and I am very far from it, but you have to adjust for the crash and bang playoffs. We were the best team in hockey 2 consecutive years and a big reason for that was the Sedins, but when we needed them most they were easily shut down and we failed to win the cup. If they were so clutch they would of found a way to be clutch for just 1 game (game 7 vs Bruins). Instead we were shutout on home ice, and swept out of round 1 the following year. We've been rebuilding ever since Loved what the Sedins gave us as far as offense and community work go but it will be so good to lose the turn the other cheek attitude that Boston slapped into them in 2011 finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 nevermind....mods please delete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said: Not to diminish the greatness that is Bossy (who I did unfortunately see live against my Canucks in the 1982 playoffs....) but a guy like Rick Vaive also had three seasons of 50+ goals during this hockey period. I'll have to give it some thought as to who'd I'd want in that situation. To borrow a line from Pat Riley..... "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." hmmmm....now who would be my hockey equivalents to Jordan & Bird. Lots of possibilities (eg., Rocket Richard, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr.....) If I had to choose a player to score a goal to save a game it'd be Ovechkin If I had to choose a player to score a goal to save my life it'd be BROCK BOESER!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNeil Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 The NHL needs to make a new category. Something like goals scored when tied or trailing by one, in the third period. Overtime goals don't really have that much meaning with 3 on 3 anymore either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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