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Canucks displaying a model rebuild plan


Sergei Shirokov

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1 hour ago, Phat Fingers said:

We would have lost the next round but the first season under JB was not a rebuilding season. Maybe it should have been, but it wasn’t.  

Of course it was. Bought out Booth, traded Kesler and Garrison. The problem is to rebuild you actually need something to rebuild with. Which is why he traded for guys like Vey, Pedan, Clendening, and Baertschi. Guys that play in the NHL sooner rather than later. It's also why he had to move the old core out in stages.

 

Honestly I can't recall a GM ever taking over a team with an empty prospect pool, only one roster player under 27, and everybody else on the decline. Worst starting point imaginable for a GM.

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7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I hope we don't trade Guddy! 

 

He signed a show me deal. 1 year. And was a pending UFA. And he played through injury which is noble while a pending UFA. He drove himself but was not at his best. He still clearly felt supported through the process. He obviously had honest dialogue with JB all the way through. Had good dialogue with the team, and ignored catcalls which were bewitching almost. I was soo impressed it finished up with a middle ground deal?

 

Now we're rewarded with a mobile, big physical D. Who stands up! Right now he's a big part of what success we're having.  Him and Hutton are playing top pair & playing well! 

 

I believe Erik deserves our loyalty!

 

I think he helps our rebuild.

I agree, just talking about deals that would be a fit with TO needs (from my pov anyway).

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12 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

LOL what?  Where did I say JB got lucky at anything?  I said he did an amazing job at installing a new scouting department, average job at trading, bad job at contracts and awful job at vision (thinking a quick turnaround with the Sedins was possible).  

 

I do have hater aid glasses on, going for it instead of rebuilding from the start was foolish.  The only reason the rebuild looks good right now is because the original plan failed bad enough that we got good picks regardless.  Where would this rebuild be without Petterson, Hughes & OJ?  

To be clear, you did praise JB’s new scouting and drafting department, but prior to that you also used the word lucky to describe JB failing at the retool.  

 

I agree that drafting has been the salvation, it always needed to be. 

 

This team had the misfortune to place in the bottom of the league after the new lotto rules came into being.

 

Considering that after three successive crappy seasons the players making this team relevant have been drafted from within and none are top 3 picks.  

 

Thats unusual and if this trend continues at its current pace, this turn around will be one of the shortest ones I can remember. The sheer lack of top 3 picks that are the apparent necessity for any successful rebuild based on the ‘conventional wisdom’ here on the CDC.   This makes this early turnaround new and different. 

 

While I fully expect that this team will have a come back to earth momment once or twice this year, the hockey being played is the best I have seen in 5 years.  The injuries haven’t slowed them down.  

 

But focus on the fact the rebuild started later than most of us wanted, now that we have a group of young players that will be the envy of the NHL, not by chance, but great scouting. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Baggins said:

Of course it was. Bought out Booth, traded Kesler and Garrison. The problem is to rebuild you actually need something to rebuild with. Which is why he traded for guys like Vey, Pedan, Clendening, and Baertschi. Guys that play in the NHL sooner rather than later. It's also why he had to move the old core out in stages.

 

Honestly I can't recall a GM ever taking over a team with an empty prospect pool, only one roster player under 27, and everybody else on the decline. Worst starting point imaginable for a GM.

Booth and Garrison were done, don’t think either one managed to complete a season after those moves. That was house keeping, sweeping out the players who were no longer contributing.  

 

Kesler demnaded a trade and wasnt wasn’t going to report to camp. That’s not rebuilding. 

 

So two nothing moves that are of no consequence except that JB got a 2nd for Garrison, only to waste it on Vey. 

 

Does anyone on this board sreriously thinl that JB was trading Kesler at that time if he  wasn’t demanding a move?  

 

 

Also a 101 point season, it’s like fossils, fossils, fossils vs the creation debate, I win. :) 

 

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3 hours ago, oldnews said:

Haha.

 

I would have loved to see the responses to that title if it were posted last year or the year before....

 

The thread would have been epic.  

 

Curious amount of quiet among the would-be posters that probably would have crashed CDC.

Rugby's still fighting the good fight in here :lol:

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19 hours ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

With Demko and DiPietro in the system, there's a pretty solid plan in place and JB is not rushing it.  Markstrom wasn't good but the D was lousy too.  Watch Demko become a regular once the defensive pairings are shored up a bit more.

Demko didn't look that strong in pre season, normally if someone is that good they stand out in pre season he really didn't, guys like Brock last year, Pettersson this year are players who stood out in pre season to back up they were good and ready to go right away. Demko maybe become that good but he still needs time he's not at that level yet, this team could use a #1 vet Goalie to mentor a guy like Demko or DiPietro to help him become really good, but not by our current goalies there not #1's and don't want them mentoring our young ones tbh.

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17 hours ago, IBatch said:

The only luck we’ve had is bad luck with the lotto balls, the rest is a result of working hard to get the right picks and prospects in place.  Not to spell it out but we traded everyone we could, got a pick for Bieksa, and prospects for Burrows and Hansen (despite the clauses), but didn’t ask the Sedins or Edler...not exactly doing nothing.  Kesler and Luongo are on the other management, but we still got something for that too.  Shinkaruk looked funny playing with other Canuck Alumini Grenier in the AHL, and Bear has done a decent job of making Vey and his pick look like a wash.    Sooo...what was that you were saying again? 

 

I also wished for more, but understood that our hands were tied until the Sedins retired (and that we’d get nothing for them which is what it is), it wasn’t great, but it was a good job of making lemonade out of lemons. 

Not sure why you are bringing in kesler Luongo bieska when they were well before the actual rebuild happened. We wasted assets such as hamhuis and vrbata heck I even throw in miller. Trading picks for project players. The point of a rebuild is accumulating draft picks or prospect for assets on the team not trading picks for projects and like I said the canucks have the fewest draft picks of any of the rebuilding teams in the last 5 years. Not exactly a rebuilding model. 

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1 hour ago, cuporbust said:

20181107_105432.jpg

Drafted 5th by us and long ago on his fifth birthday was donning a Vancouver shirt. It truly was destiny. The hockey gods have finally spoken and gave us a savior when at first it looked like they cursed us with the draft lottery luck. It can’t be more fitting then this.

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On 06/11/2018 at 8:08 AM, Phat Fingers said:

To be clear, you did praise JB’s new scouting and drafting department, but prior to that you also used the word lucky to describe JB failing at the retool.  

 

I agree that drafting has been the salvation, it always needed to be. 

 

This team had the misfortune to place in the bottom of the league after the new lotto rules came into being.

 

Considering that after three successive crappy seasons the players making this team relevant have been drafted from within and none are top 3 picks.  

 

Thats unusual and if this trend continues at its current pace, this turn around will be one of the shortest ones I can remember. The sheer lack of top 3 picks that are the apparent necessity for any successful rebuild based on the ‘conventional wisdom’ here on the CDC.   This makes this early turnaround new and different. 

 

While I fully expect that this team will have a come back to earth momment once or twice this year, the hockey being played is the best I have seen in 5 years.  The injuries haven’t slowed them down.  

 

But focus on the fact the rebuild started later than most of us wanted, now that we have a group of young players that will be the envy of the NHL, not by chance, but great scouting.

Kesler said he asked for a trade after Gillis told him the team would start rebuilding the following year. He said he didn't want to go through a rebuild. Just because you didn't get the rebuild you wanted doesn't mean they weren't rebuilding.

 

Count how many new faces were on the team that year. Plus a pair of rookies in Vey and Horvat.

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52 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Kesler said he asked for a trade after Gillis told him the team would start rebuilding the following year. He said he didn't want to go through a rebuild. Just because you didn't get the rebuild you wanted doesn't mean they weren't rebuilding.

 

Count how many new faces were on the team that year. Plus a pair of rookies in Vey and Horvat.

So Kesler demanding a trade is some how tied to a rebuild?  Yet no other significant roster prices were moved that year and the twins were just starting a 3 year deal. Then the rebuilding team goes out at has a 101 pt season and makes the playoffs. 

 

Not a rebuild, rebuilding teams don’t have 101pt seasons.  BTW, Kesler hand cuffed the team and left looking like a major a$$hole, so who cares why he did it.  

 

MG was not the GM, ownership clearly wasn’t ready for the rebuild and JB/TL clearly stated that they weren’t rebuilding, but retooling on the fly with the hopes of remaining competitive.  

 

Actions and words trump your conjecture and unfounded speculation.  This team ernestly began to ship players out over the next two years with mixed results.

 

Kesler was replaced with roster players and one first rounder. Had we been rebuilding, I would expect JB to have only taken picks and prospects. 3 roster players came out of that deal Dorsett (pick to a trade) Bones and Sbisa. Not moves a rebuilding team makes.  Signing Vrabata is another move that rebuilding teams don’t make, Dito for Miller.  They kept the Twins, Hammer, Bieksa, Hansen, Burrows, Tanev, Edler, while adding Sbisa, Bones, Vrabta, Miller and Dorsett.   That’s alot of vets that could have been shipped out for full value at that time. 

 

So, to sum up your thesis, a rebuilding team consists of a mainly older veteran lineup that puts up a 101 pt season only one season removed from a presidents trophy and two removed from a presidents trophy and a SCF is rebuilding cause one player wants out ans two rookies make the squad in limited roles.  

 

Nope, nada not a chance. Should they have been, yes, but that’s water under the bridge.  Did JB make some rookie mistakes, yes. But look now, he clearly has figured this out and other than not unloading Hammer at the TDL to tank for Mathews and signing Eriksson to a 6 year deal, he hasn’t done badly. 

 

To paraphrase your post, just because you wanted them to be rebuilding doesn’t mean they did.  They clearly were looking to remain competitive and add younger players in their early twenties. 

 

I know now that because JB clearly stated that was his goal in the first year of his tenure. 

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On 11/6/2018 at 6:28 PM, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Demko didn't look that strong in pre season, normally if someone is that good they stand out in pre season he really didn't, guys like Brock last year, Pettersson this year are players who stood out in pre season to back up they were good and ready to go right away. Demko maybe become that good but he still needs time he's not at that level yet, this team could use a #1 vet Goalie to mentor a guy like Demko or DiPietro to help him become really good, but not by our current goalies there not #1's and don't want them mentoring our young ones tbh.

If you're suggesting Demko's not ready yet, I'd agree.  If you're suggesting Demko and DiPietro are not a solid tandem in the pipeline, I completely disagree.

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7 hours ago, EP Phone Home said:

Drafted 5th by us and long ago on his fifth birthday was donning a Vancouver shirt. It truly was destiny. The hockey gods have finally spoken and gave us a savior when at first it looked like they cursed us with the draft lottery luck. It can’t be more fitting then this.

Interesting thought......if Vancouver had the 3rd pick, would they have picked him up still?

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On 11/6/2018 at 2:03 PM, oldnews said:

Haha.

 

I would have loved to see the responses to that title if it were posted last year or the year before....

 

The thread would have been epic.  

 

Curious amount of quiet among the would-be posters that probably would have crashed CDC.

I put together a post before the season suggesting that the Canucks would be in a solid hunt for a playoff spot and got laughed at.  I still wouldn't mind it if they had a good run this year but ended up fizzling out near the end of the year (I think they still need another good draft year to become contenders in a few years)......but we're starting to see the pieces come together and it's not unreasonable to see this team hit the playoffs.  Everyone is playing better it seems and I wonder how much of this is the hope that Pettersson has given them.

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23 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

I put together a post before the season suggesting that the Canucks would be in a solid hunt for a playoff spot and got laughed at.  I still wouldn't mind it if they had a good run this year but ended up fizzling out near the end of the year (I think they still need another good draft year to become contenders in a few years)......but we're starting to see the pieces come together and it's not unreasonable to see this team hit the playoffs.  Everyone is playing better it seems and I wonder how much of this is the hope that Pettersson has given them.

We are starting to see the pieces come together, and imo it wasn't inconceivable at all that the team could/would be as good or better than they were last year - they were going to be faster and harder to play against, they were going to have a deeper and better bottom six forwards, their young D would have the benefit of another year of experience - however, at the same time it wasn't clear whether they'd remain healthy, and it wasn't clear how quickly their young skilled forwards would be able to pick up the primary scoring.   That last factor has exceeded expectations, particularly with a depleted lineup - both the skilled forwards and the replacement depth have exceeded what could be expected.   But these are boards that have developed somewhat of an inferiority mindset, combining that with negative expectations and a willful misread of the transition that tended to result in an attachment to lottery results.

 

I think the fans have received hope from Pettersson - but the team doesn't need, nor are they fueled by hope.  They work hard - and they intend to win - with or without Pettersson in the lineup - and the same can be said of Tanev, Edler, Sutter, Beagle, Baertschi, etc.    These are all key players in different ways - but the team doesn't rely on any particular one of them.  One thing that Pettersson is providing is the kind of game-breaking presence that certainly lifts a team and gives them the sense that they're always only one shot from a goal, but that's something they also had last year in Boeser, and when it gets to brass tacks it takes more than a Boeser or a Pettersson.

 

I consider it Green - his systems, his work ethic expectations, and the team's ability to execute them that has kept them consistently competitive this year - which is not to underplay the impact of Pettersson, but it takes entire team efforts to produce the results this young, depleted team is achieving imo.

 

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I honestly think that this is a right type of rebuild model that every team should follow.  They shouldn't allow their picks/young players who are not ready for NHL to be thrown in the wolves and sign veterans as a placeholder until their picks are ready.   If veterans wouldn't sign with Vanocuver, you trade an extra 2nd/3rd/4th round pick for a ready NHLers or veterans to help us out, ie: Dorsett, Baertschi, etc.   It results in a fewer picks but it's who you pick counts, that's where scouting comes in.   It takes patience and vision to work together for good.   Why rush your own prospects?   It helps you with the cap space if young players are deserving of a rich contract.   I also think that a short-term 2-year at a high price ie: Vrbata, Miller, Eriksson, etc. to hold the fort and to teach their ready young players how to play the game of hockey hard, i.e.: Horvat, Virtenan, etc. when they lack a depth for injuries.   Once the phase 1 is complete which ended as soon as last season, you start a phase 2, targeting bottom hockey players UFA to hold a fort until their bottom AHLers are ready for 3rd or 4th line role, that's how you keep the cost low.   Phase 3 coming once their recent picks make the team within 2 years.

 

Once you keep the cost down, you reward the higher payday for Boeser, Petterson, and others later who will deserve that contract so that their young players in 2021/2022 season and players coming in ELC in 2021 would not be able to demand higher salary that Petterson potentially will get until 2024/25 season, see Nylanders fiasco and even until then, they would not even have their control as a leverage because Petterson will make the ELC players coming off 2024 look good and give them a modest raise that will not hamstring the Canucks due to cap space for a bridge contract and play different line to prove that they can play hockey without dependence on Petterson for stats padding.    By the time Petterson long contract expires as a UFA, you would hope that he would resign with us, and not bolt aka Tavares.   If he bolts, you would still have cap space room to sign its own players with a long term with higher pay scale proving that he can play without Petterson and the cycle goes on and still have room to retain a potential championship team without losing their players to cap restraint aka Chicago.   

 

If you allow all young players to play in once, they will demand a higher pay salary at once, hurting the team as whole to the point where they cannot attract a free agent with a  reasonable salary.   Benning has it right, slow cooking their own players to the point where they cannot have the leverage of a higher salary as a RFA.   

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