DonLever Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 The NDP leader and the Liberal will faceoff tonight over referendum debate on CBC, Global, CTV, CKNW and online at 7:00 pm. https://theprovince.com/news/politics/b-c-premier-squares-off-with-liberal-leader-in-electoral-reform-debate-thursday/wcm/3a26204e-29c4-451e-9ca6-e453380fc6fe Addition: Reminder to mail in ballots before Nov.30. They have to receive the ballot by that date to qualify. If you mail on Nov. 30 it is too late as it will arrive in December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonLever Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 I guess people either did not watch or cared about the electoral reform referendum. So here is what happened according to Vancouver Sun: VICTORIA — A much-anticipated debate between B.C. Premier John Horgan and Liberal leader Andrew Wilkinson devolved into an extended 30-minute televised argument Thursday evening that political experts say offered voters little useful information. “I’m glad it was only half an hour,” said University of Fraser Valley political scientist Hamish Telford. “It was not terribly informative in terms of getting more details on any kind of electoral system. “There was just a lot of yelling over the top at each other which I think people will find irritating and frustrating.” Horgan and Wilkinson’s debate centred mainly on unanswered questions about the three electoral systems versus the potential for a new voting system to engage disenfranchised British Columbians. “We’re talking about changing to something that’s more inclusive and representative, or sticking with a system that will produce majority governments with a minority of votes,” Horgan said. Wilkinson focused much of his time on quizzing Horgan about specific details about the three proposed PR systems. He demanded Horgan tell the public how many MLAs would be elected under each model, as well as how many ridings would be merged and how many votes British Columbians would have on their ballots. Horgan struggled to explain specific details, because many of the finer points remain undecided until after the referendum is complete and an all-party committee of MLAs — as well as an electoral boundary commission — decide upon the ridings and formats. “Premier Horgan is advocating a change to three different systems, two of which have never been used anywhere in the world,” said Wilkinson. “You don’t believe we can be innovative?” asked Horgan. “This is not a card game where you can write the rules,” replied Wilkinson. “People want to know before they fill in that ballot how many MLAs will I have, how many votes will I have … tell us how it’s going to work. You are making the suggestion to change the system, you have to explain to people. And I haven’t heard you explain one single feature tonight.” The mail-in referendum asks voters whether they want to keep the current first-past-the-post electoral system, or change to one of three options of proportional representation. Ballots must be returned by Nov. 30. As of Thursday, Elections B.C. reported 2.6 per cent of almost 3.3 million registered voters had returned ballots. Wilkinson argued that the current system has been used for decades safely and is simple to understand. Horgan rejected that argument, saying the province should use this “unique opportunity” to try something new and be comforted that a second referendum will be held two elections later if the selection is unpopular. “I don’t think we need to keep using the telegraph, lets get modern, lets get hip,” said Horgan, who later in the debate also accused Wilkinson of not being in touch with the youth vote by saying “if you were woke you would know prop prep is lit.” The TV format, while short, featured several segments in which the debate simply devolved into both men speaking over each other. “I think at this point in the evening people are saying if I’m just going to listen to one guy yell overtop of the other guy I’m going to watch Wheel of Fortune,” said Horgan. Wilkinson appealed to the public to reject the “dog’s breakfast of abbreviations” of PR models on the ballot. “Mr. Horgan has come along and cherry-picked three different systems out of a possible 16 or 17, he chose the three systems, people are very confused by these three options and we’re asking him tonight to explain,” said Wilkinson. “I have more confidence in the people of British Columbia clearly than you do Mr. Wilkinson,” replied Horgan, who accused Wilkinson of pushing fear. “I believe they will be able to work through this.” Telford said he thought Horgan came across as positive and optimistic, even if he did struggle to answer Wilkinson’s specific questions. “I think people who are having reservations of the systems or the options would be hoping for some clearer answers from John Horgan,” said Telford. “But on the other hand when Wilkinson is insinuating this was all a Machiavellian plot, well John Horgan didn’t look very Machiavellian.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Just think about this ... Under PR, it will be impossible to get rid of a specific politician, as that person can slide in under part representation. So Horgan (or a newer version of Christy Clark) will be politician for life even if he (she) loses his (her) own riding. Also PR will increase # seats from 87 up to 95. More politicians increase costs...aka taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortorella's Rant Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Hard to know it's a thing when it was seemingly never announced. Didn't see a single mention of it on Facebook from the Global page, etc, or even on the morning news. Only heard about it last night after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Another thing to consider is that it will always be a minority government. So good luck for any party getting things done. It'll mean more back room deals and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tortorella's Rant said: Hard to know it's a thing when it was seemingly never announced. Didn't see a single mention of it on Facebook from the Global page, etc, or even on the morning news. Only heard about it last night after the fact. Perhaps Horgan wants to slip it under the radar? With so little details about it, I'm hesitant to change. Cuz sometimes change isn't always good (see current US president as an example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peaches5 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, BPA said: Another thing to consider is that it will always be a minority government. So good luck for any party getting things done. It'll mean more back room deals and so forth. It's called needing the majority of the popular vote to get anything done easily which is how it should be otherwise you get the BC liberals again who turn our province into a criminals playground. I don't understand how people think it's a good thing that a government has majority control when they don't have the majority of the popular vote. If you don't have 50% of the people voting for you then you shouldn't be able to pass all these laws that only a minority want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, peaches5 said: It's called needing the majority of the popular vote to get anything done easily which is how it should be otherwise you get the BC liberals again who turn our province into a criminals playground. That's CC being a corrupt politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peaches5 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 1 minute ago, BPA said: That's CC being a corrupt politician. She could only do that because of the current system unless 50.1% of British Columbians vote for a party it should be a minority. That's how everyone's vote matters. People don't vote because they know their vote won't matter under the current system. The system has been designed so corrupt politicians can get majority power then do whatever they want padding their own and friends pockets. Proportional Representation is a much better voting system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goalie13 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Under PR, you only need 5% of the votes to get a seat. I heard it's how white nationalists got a foothold in European politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Wilkinson has a good point, what exactly are we voting for? If Horgan can't explain it.... imagine if Christy Clark just said 'trust me' on voting in a new system. I've filled in my ballot already so this was moot for me personally, but it not surprising that nothing new was learned. This whole thing as been badly run. It should have given rural voters more of a say in the change, and we don't have a clue what we're voting for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peaches5 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 30 minutes ago, BPA said: Under PR, you only need 5% of the votes to get a seat. I heard it's how white nationalists got a foothold in European politics. Stop spreading your complete nonsense. You're trying to scare people into voting for FPTP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, peaches5 said: Stop spreading your complete nonsense. You're trying to scare people into voting for FPTP. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-36130006 With only 5% needed to get a seat...can you really say it can't happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 1 hour ago, peaches5 said: She could only do that because of the current system unless 50.1% of British Columbians vote for a party it should be a minority. That's how everyone's vote matters. People don't vote because they know their vote won't matter under the current system. The system has been designed so corrupt politicians can get majority power then do whatever they want padding their own and friends pockets. Proportional Representation is a much better voting system. I like the French system and would prefer it in Canada. All parties run and the top two have a run off election so that the winning party absolutely has a majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 12 minutes ago, peaches5 said: Stop spreading your complete nonsense. You're trying to scare people into voting for FPTP. Actually to be fair didn't the PM say a similar thing about fringe parties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peaches5 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 32 minutes ago, BPA said: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-36130006 With only 5% needed to get a seat...can you really say it can't happen? First off, that is only if it were MMP. There was three proportional representation system you could rank. Second, the seats match their province-wide popular vote. Not only that but under this system, you would get two votes one for the party and one for the candidate. You might like the candidate and vote them in but not like their party and vote against their party in the popular vote. If the majority of the province is against your views then &^@#ing move. If the majority of the province is split and the government is split then that's how it should be. A party should not have majority power and free reins to do whatever they want if they don't have the majority popular vote. Finally, Donald Trump is a white supremacist in control of the USA and he got there under an FPTP system. Don't sit there and tell everyone a bunch of white nationalists could take control if the system change because that is pure nonsense. They can already do it if there are enough of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 1 hour ago, BPA said: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-36130006 With only 5% needed to get a seat...can you really say it can't happen? Actually yes we can. Will people vote on MMP? Unlikely, as The rural urban option is far more preferable to BC You're intentionally sowing discord by preaching worse case scenarios in situations that have rarely if ever occurred in the world. The scenarios in fact you are suggesting are actually being propagated by the people who belong to the same demographic as those who are against PR in BC which is in fact, ironic. Unless you can come up with a real world scenario or a better option, either tell the truth as it is or walk. We have enough misinformation to deal with from interested groups who are spending a fortune to ensure PR does not happen in BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: I like the French system and would prefer it in Canada. All parties run and the top two have a run off election so that the winning party absolutely has a majority. I'd prefer this as well. @Warhippy you keep claiming its fear mongering but its a legitimate position to not like governing by committee, as is it is in my case. It has nothing to do with "fear" or misinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 3 hours ago, peaches5 said: People don't vote because they know their vote won't matter under the current system. Might be part that though I'd guess voter apathy is a greater reason. It's not just a case of people thinking their vote doesn't matter, they just don't care. (note, I am NOT saying it's the right line of thinking only what I *think* is the bigger problem). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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