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This is Getting Harder to Ignore


Rob_Zepp

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On ‎09‎.‎11‎.‎2018 at 5:02 AM, Rob_Zepp said:

There is no question the Canucks are not ready to be consistently competitive in the March/April sense and will fall short of the playoffs this year but the game in and game out effort, style of play and general growth of their young players is beyond anyone's expectation I am certain.   I would say, without doubt, they are the surprise of the league and if Green isn't seen as being the best coach out of the gate in the entire league, then someone isn't paying enough attention to what is happening out of west coast of Canada.

 

What is remarkable is that NO other team in the NHL, let alone the teams near them in the standings in the West like Calgary and Edmonton, are:

  • Without arguable their best Dman who is also (for better or worse) their PP QB - he has only played in 10 or 17 games so far this year
  • Without arguably their best goal scorer who isn't a freak of nature Swedish rookie - he has played 13 of 17 games this year and arguably many of them hampered
  • Without arguably their most important free agent signing and one of the best face-off and PK specialists in the entire league and who has only played only 5 of 17 games
  • Have had their other best Dman play in 13 of 17 games
  • Have their third line center, and huge presence on PK, missing for past four games and counting
  • Have their first line left winger only in 10 games so far this and likely gone for quite a while longer
  • Their only NHL ready other goalie gone for several weeks already
  • 10 of their first 17 games on the road and included on that would be against teams like Tampa, Pittsburgh, Winnipeg, Boston.....

 

IF you took those items above and said that was going to happen over the first 17 games, after coming off the one win exhibition season where goals were harder to come by than decorum at a White House press gathering, who would have projected this team to be four games over 500 and scoring at a rate they haven't done since winning President's trophies.    

 

I think this is getting harder to ignore.   I know they will hit a wall soon - they have to.   However, anyone who thinks this is not a team on the rise is nuts.   Watching players like Virtanen emerge, Hutton's resurrection, Horvat become part of the league's elite (in Boston he goes 14-16 in the dot and has 4 points....not star, SUPERstar), Guddy returning to the form they traded for and so forth is so inspiring but when you add in the very phenomena that is EP40 and know what is still coming from Utica and US College etc. - I guess "impossible to ignore" is more the right thing to say.

To watch this team playing, make so much fun as it has been for a long time. I'm very impressed by the young guns, especially since the injuries of Beagle, Sutter, Edler etc. :wub:

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6 hours ago, Hutton Wink said:

How many times will this myth keep being repeated?  I know the answer -- all season.

It's not 2014 any longer.  Yeah he wants to stay, so do most players.  But he's on an expiring contract and is eventually going to reach the point where he has to decide whether he wants to waive and get to a place where he can win and possibly re-sign there, waive and have the opportunity to come back here, or simply by told he won't be back and has to move on anyway.

 

 

It's not a myth that he has an ntc or that he wants to stay here. The myth is every player will waive if asked. That's not true. So until he's actually asked to waive we won't know what he willing or unwilling to do. But my guess is if this team is in playoff position at the deadline and he's asked he'll decline to waive. If we're out of the playoffs I could see it going either way but lean slightly towards him waiving. Overall though I'm leaning towards him getting a contract extension unless both Hutton and Pouliot prove him expendable by then. Hutton's making a good case, Pouliot not so much. But the deadline is still a long ways away.

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On 2018-11-08 at 8:09 PM, Nuxfanabroad said:

Also calculate their goaltending could improve, when Nilsson returns.

Hard to get much worse. Markstrom makes some highlight reel saves but the air gets let out by the early softies and late softies. 

 

Reminds me of Cloutier, without the rage. 

 

I don't think Nilsson or Markstrom are the answer, but the bosses make the decisions. 

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2 hours ago, 406in604 said:

Hard to get much worse. Markstrom makes some highlight reel saves but the air gets let out by the early softies and late softies. 

 

Reminds me of Cloutier, without the rage. 

 

I don't think Nilsson or Markstrom are the answer, but the bosses make the decisions. 

I dont see how anyone can complain about the goal tending this year. There have been a couple games where they stole two points.Its improvement all around that has this team where they are and that includes Markstrom and Nilsson. Are they the next Brodeur, or Roy i doubt it but they have played better than last season for sure. Although i am still pissed at Marky for that lame attempt to turn the puck on the Sabres tying goal. It looked bad and was bad but he made a few really great saves in that game to keep us up. Each player has had their good and bad moments so far but they are on the right track.Sometimes you get bad bounces , sometimes you get good ones.

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29 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

I dont see how anyone can complain about the goal tending this year. There have been a couple games where they stole two points.Its improvement all around that has this team where they are and that includes Markstrom and Nilsson. Are they the next Brodeur, or Roy i doubt it but they have played better than last season for sure. Although i am still pissed at Marky for that lame attempt to turn the puck on the Sabres tying goal. It looked bad and was bad but he made a few really great saves in that game to keep us up. Each player has had their good and bad moments so far but they are on the right track.Sometimes you get bad bounces , sometimes you get good ones.

JM has an M.O of letting in the first shot of the game. This is going back 2 years now. He also let's in bad goals late in games. Neither goalie has grabbed the reigns and run with it, liks Matt Murray stole it from Fluery.

 

Bad goals kill a team. Even worse, bad goals that tie a game up or let a team back in the game. Neither goalie in this team has earned the starting job.

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58 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

I dont see how anyone can complain about the goal tending this year. There have been a couple games where they stole two points.Its improvement all around that has this team where they are and that includes Markstrom and Nilsson. Are they the next Brodeur, or Roy i doubt it but they have played better than last season for sure. Although i am still pissed at Marky for that lame attempt to turn the puck on the Sabres tying goal. It looked bad and was bad but he made a few really great saves in that game to keep us up. Each player has had their good and bad moments so far but they are on the right track.Sometimes you get bad bounces , sometimes you get good ones.

This isn't "the team" being built so the goaltending is what it is.   I think a fair thing to say is the Canucks are not likely winning playoff rounds and being serious Cup contenders with either of the current tandem in the starting job.   That is more than fine as they are a few years away from that level but it also means that unless Demko continues to develop (and all indications he will), they will likely be looking for further help OR one of these two had better step up and become a solid No.2 for a top team as right now, to be candid, they are decent for a team where the Canucks have been the past few years but that is all.   The overall stats are not great.

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2 hours ago, 406in604 said:

JM has an M.O of letting in the first shot of the game. This is going back 2 years now. He also let's in bad goals late in games. Neither goalie has grabbed the reigns and run with it, liks Matt Murray stole it from Fluery.

 

Bad goals kill a team. Even worse, bad goals that tie a game up or let a team back in the game. Neither goalie in this team has earned the starting job.

doesn't appear to be the case does it?  The Canucks are winning, so obviously he's more than playing well enough to win.  

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11 minutes ago, stawns said:

doesn't appear to be the case does it?  The Canucks are winning, so obviously he's more than playing well enough to win.  

We are outscoring our issues in goal. The Oilers did it. It can work. I don't think we are the Oilers from the 80s. It was exciting hockey though. 

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On 2018-11-11 at 12:06 PM, debluvscanucks said:

Besides, isn't that just normal for any team on a roll?  That, in an 82 game season that last months that they won't sustain things without interruption or faltering?

 

That's the thing for me...it's impossible to determine WHO, in the end, will find success at the right time.  That's the key...timing.  Playoffs being

part of it....some limp in with injuries, some come in on fire and with momentum.  If everything lines up, come spring any team can do it.  Hard work and determination and, if you have some momentum and luck, it can be done.

 

Biggest thing for me is...goaltending.   If your goaltender is playing lights out come playoffs, it's a huge step in the right direction.

 

I do understand that physicality is amp'd up and through the roof., But this team is young and young players are resilient.  Their bodies can bounce back quicker than older players who might feel things a bit more or on a lingering basis...even if at the dishing out end of things.  It's punishing for all teams, not just ours.  These aren't superheroes that are gone up against...they're all human beings and feel pain.   So it's not just about physical stature, it's about being able to absorb a bit of punishment and battle through it.  Kings used to be menacing in the playoffs...but now have an older roster and things have slowed down for them.  Bruins?  They're beatable...we've proven that.   It's a new era and some of the "tough" playoff performers are older...fast and furious is a bit harder to generate for entire series as you age. 

 

Not sure why people just assume that we're not ready.   The games leading up to the playoffs usually give a fairly good picture of that and the teams who end up there do so for a reason.

 

Don't base everything on the past...that was a bit of an anomaly (2011).  We could have won it all...and came close.  But things broke down and that can happen with any team...it's a fragile process.  You can't just check  off boxes of who will or won't...it has to play out and that's the beauty of it all.  That anyone who gets there has a chance.   

 

I don't want to write anything off because anything's possible.

 

I am taking this one game at a time and if we don't get there...that's ok.  We had some fun this year and were entertained.  We'll get a pick and that is a big picture good thing.  If we do...I'm in.  All in.  But that's getting WAY ahead of ourselves, which is sort of why I'm responding.  It takes away from the here and now to project in a negative way.   Pointless, because we won't know until...we know.

 

It is ego driven to have to "prove" things here.  I don't know and have no problem stating that.  No one does.  Even the "no one was in the Guddy" thread.  We are all Canucks...we are all on board  if we're here at all.  No one's further ahead of behind if they don't decide "good or bad" on  players or the team.  That's fluid and somewhat subjective, based on what you're looking for.

Anyhow, getting tired of hearing myself speak.  But I also feel strongly that we can't predict the future with hockey.  Or I wouldn't bother watching at all.  Been a LONG road and sometimes we've had teams that gave us NO reason to be there.  Except, that there is always hope and...you just never know.

 

 

The best run we ever had the team was .500 in the regular season.  Different time when more teams made the playoffs, but with no home ice advantage we took out Calgary in 7, were a Lafayette goal post and Ronning wrist issue away from winning it all as a huge underdog.  Come playoff time you just never know..

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7 hours ago, 406in604 said:

I don't think Nilsson or Markstrom are the answer, but the bosses make the decisions. 

Markstrom has been here pre-dating Benning's tenure - and Benning brought in Miller to carry the load / placehold.

The reason he remains however - he has shown signs of being a capable starter.  He was dominant in the Calder run - and he has shown a lot of signs of being mentally tough in his young career.  He has given up a lot of early, not particularly good goals - but his response has consistently been to shake those off and tighten it up.

 

Pretty much universally known that this has been a transition stage - so taking the chance on Markstrom makes perfect sense - as does bringing in another young, big, athletic guy with promise to compete with or tandem with him.  I have absolutely no problem with a Markstrom Nilsson one-two, particularly at this stage.  Goaltenders tend to be late bloomers - and relatively unpredictable - these are two guys that make a lot of sense imo - with big frames and great toolboxes.   I'd think any goaltending coach would love to work with those two, particularly with the room for uptick.

 

But the bottom line is neither of them.  One or both may prove to be good, long term NHL goaltenders, but regardless, Benning has continued to add to the pipeline - using a 36th overall pick on Demko (who has generally outperformed his draft position to date) - a 64th overall on DiPietro (who likewise looks like a great pick thus far - has a .926 sv% on an average Windsor team thus far and has gotten calls from the WJC and WC for team Canada....) - and drafted another longer-shot in the 7th round of the last draft.

 

So whom the answer turns out to be is unknown, but their cards certainly aren't all-in on one of the current guys - who could still actually pan out.

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9 hours ago, 406in604 said:

Hard to get much worse. Markstrom makes some highlight reel saves but the air gets let out by the early softies and late softies. 

 

Reminds me of Cloutier, without the rage. 

 

I don't think Nilsson or Markstrom are the answer, but the bosses make the decisions. 

This is a huge exaggeration in my opinion.  It could be MUCH worse.  Also, letting in a soft goal or two isn't a deal breaker...many goaltenders do have moments.  It's how they rebound and we've done okay and that, in part, is due to goaltending.

 

You won't find perfection with any goaltender.   We do have some young goaltenders to look forward to...I think I'm as excited about DP as I am Demko.  But, for now, these guys are getting the job done in supporting the team to wins.

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1 hour ago, oldnews said:

Markstrom has been here pre-dating Benning's tenure - and Benning brought in Miller to carry the load / placehold.

The reason he remains however - he has shown signs of being a capable starter.  He was dominant in the Calder run - and he has shown a lot of signs of being mentally tough in his young career.  He has given up a lot of early, not particularly good goals - but his response has consistently been to shake those off and tighten it up.

 

Pretty much universally known that this has been a transition stage - so taking the chance on Markstrom makes perfect sense - as does bringing in another young, big, athletic guy with promise to compete with or tandem with him.  I have absolutely no problem with a Markstrom Nilsson one-two, particularly at this stage.  Goaltenders tend to be late bloomers - and relatively unpredictable - these are two guys that make a lot of sense imo - with big frames and great toolboxes.   I'd think any goaltending coach would love to work with those two, particularly with the room for uptick.

 

But the bottom line is neither of them.  One or both may prove to be good, long term NHL goaltenders, but regardless, Benning has continued to add to the pipeline - using a 36th overall pick on Demko (who has generally outperformed his draft position to date) - a 64th overall on DiPietro (who likewise looks like a great pick thus far - has a .926 sv% on an average Windsor team thus far and has gotten calls from the WJC and WC for team Canada....) - and drafted another longer-shot in the 7th round of the last draft.

 

So whom the answer turns out to be is unknown, but their cards certainly aren't all-in on one of the current guys - who could still actually pan out.

Good post ON.  That’s exactly how I see it with an emphasis on this stage (rebuild, expected to be a bottom dweller for at least two years etc), Markstrom looked better as the season wore on last year, and has shown signs of improvement, but even better they can keep him, expect the same and end up with some of the best odds the next couple drafts.   Seeking out a trade for a blue chip goalie would have looked odd this summer, like the re-tool was still on or something.

 

Nobody expected this start (ok a few rosey glass optimists on this site may have, but they were a very tiny minority), and a Markstom remains one of our best options, at least until the sample size is a lot bigger.   Your right to bring up his early career, he was more sought after and highly touted than Demko has been by quite a margin, a sure thing, the next Rinne etc.   I bring this up because even as a placeholder he could improve and turn the corner on the first five minutes of the game softie and actually start getting a few shutouts.  Maybe not but that’s no big deal either. 

 

Goaltending is far from a certainty going forward but I like what they’ve committed too for as you say this stage, and have high hopes for Demko.  Worse case scenario we have to trade for one or cycle through some excellent back-ups until we hit a winner.  

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1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

This is a huge exaggeration in my opinion.  It could be MUCH worse.  Also, letting in a soft goal or two isn't a deal breaker...many goaltenders do have moments.  It's how they rebound and we've done okay and that, in part, is due to goaltending.

 

You won't find perfection with any goaltender.   We do have some young goaltenders to look forward to...I think I'm as excited about DP as I am Demko.  But, for now, these guys are getting the job done in supporting the team to wins.

Huge? Not huge, neither of their original draft teams wanted them and both have been unable to establish themselves at the age of 28. Maybe slight exaggeration, but not huge. 

 

 

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As long as we're winning they are establishing themselves.   That's the point...to help a team win. 

 

There's definitely room for improvement and yes, some soft goals can change the face of a game.  But there have been some huge robbery saves too, so it all evens out.

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2 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

As long as we're winning they are establishing themselves.   That's the point...to help a team win. 

 

There's definitely room for improvement and yes, some soft goals can change the face of a game.  But there have been some huge robbery saves too, so it all evens out.

GF vs GA is a huge indicator in the standings. If you go back to look at the standings for the last decade, the good teams are usually + by quite a bit and almost all playoff teams are +. This team is currently -2.

 

No team last year made the playoffs in the negatives. Our goaltending is not horrible, it just isnt good enough. Ryan Miller had more shutouts in 50 starts as a Canuck than Markstrom has in 185 starts. 

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10 hours ago, 406in604 said:

JM has an M.O of letting in the first shot of the game. This is going back 2 years now. He also let's in bad goals late in games. Neither goalie has grabbed the reigns and run with it, liks Matt Murray stole it from Fluery.

 

Bad goals kill a team. Even worse, bad goals that tie a game up or let a team back in the game. Neither goalie in this team has earned the starting job.

I can't help but feel like they are placeholders until Demko is ready. Neither would be a starting goalie on a playoff team, and maybe any other team in the NHL. 

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