lmm Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 On 12/2/2018 at 1:32 PM, xereau said: We were given a glimpse of the future, and it was magnificent. And then all of that hope and good will was nuked into a cinder. The summer UFAs have been hit and miss. Schaller is sitting out, with injuries still taking guys out of the line up. That should tell you something. Littlethinger is not even doing the little things well, despite the coaches' assertions. Nice muffins, though. Gagner has been acceptable since coming back. But he had to be embarrassed in order to come back and perform. Roussel has been as advertised. A real pest. Has drawn some penalties. And taken a few dumb ones Potential fan favorite moving forward imo. Beagle was really good, before the broken arm and really solidified the PK which is the worst we have seen it in possibly decades atm. Sutter was perhaps the unsung hero on this team during the good start. His solid shut down performance greased the skids for the rest of the whole team. His injury devastated this team more than any of the others. MDZ is hot garbage. Chases and just waves as guys blow by. The rare good hit. The depth trades from the last few seasons have been mostly hits, to Benning's credit... at least in terms of getting NHLers... ...on this team. Sorry to sound snarky about this but I am not sure about so many reclamation projects on one team and calling it a rebuild. Many of these guys are not NHL players, or top 6 players on others teams. But they ARE here! 1st gen: Granlund has been asked to play up and down the lineup, and has done a decent job when asked to score, and a marginal job when asked to check. He is too soft to be a shutdown guy. Baertschi had concussions coming into this team. And Benning knew it. He can score too. When he isn't concussed. I like him but he is a low grade top 6 imo. 2nd gen: Goldobin is still an enigma. He is definitely not a honey badger. But he sure looks sparkly once in a while. But have you ever seen a guy more soft on the boards or when stick checked, or even looked at wrong in your entire life? SOFT AS BUTTER. Dahlen is a work in progress. I get it. He might even pan out. But hasn't played a single game in the NHL yet. Until he proves he can, he is just a stat sheet in the minors. 3rd gen: Motte has been a surprise to everyone. He works hard and looks like Chris Higgins out there to me. Really happy with this guy. Leipsic is another story. Tiny. Was supposed to be gritty. A busy bee buzzing the perimeter. A bee with no stinger is a fly, just FYI. And now on to the giant green white and blue elephant in the room. Where is the backbone of this team? Is this new age country club identity from the Gillis years still the status quo? Where is the push back when a player slams Pettersson to the ice? Where is the emotion when someone headshots Baertschi? Who is going to do something about Edler getting clipped from behind and falling on his face? NO ONE?!? WHAT IS THE IDENTITY OF THIS TEAM? There was a LOT of discussion after the EP incident, by the fans and the media. But the Canucks 'didn't see it happen' and 'it was a close game'. BULL. They have those tablets on the bench. There has been barely a peep from the fans here on CDC after Sven, and nothing from the media. And virtually crickets from the Canucks. Why on EARTH would Edler want to re-sign here? I am not asking for bench brawls. Or curb stomps. But I want to see something. Anything. There is a reason other teams are taking runs at our guys. Our D is abysmal. Baumgartner is the best we can do for D coach? You need to pursue the puck with a puck pursuit system. All I see the entire team collapse to the net, every single time the other team touches the puck. I just don't know what ever happened to making guys pay for going to the net. See above for more on the spineless culture of this team. Now a quick jab at the offensive system(s). BATTLE BATTLE BATTLE plastered all over everything at the start of this season. It was evident. For a while. Winning the dash to the puck more often than not. Actually banging guys off the puck on the boards. Shooting it from everywhere. Getting rebound goals. Well I guess you need to actually shoot the puck to get rebound goals. Where has this style of play gone? What has gotten into the team? If you are going to be a puck pursuit team, shouldn't you pursue the puck? How about the old school blue collar dump and chase game we have reverted to? This is amateur. It also helps if you actually go get the damn puck when you dump it in. We dump and let the other team pick it up, don't even make it miserable on the other team most of the time! What happened to carrying the puck up the ice? Making the opposing D fail by collapsing to far too fast? We were all over teams to start the season. And no, don't tell me what injuries did to the system. I am mainly talking about our D here, and a few of the guys that haven't left the line up. Hutton was rushing up the ice end to end. Stecher too. Now they are afraid to make a mistake? Run and gun it out there! Finally, the power play is mostly a sad joke. That drop pass makes me want to puke. Our two guys on the side wall are the only threat. D almost never gets a good look, or even a shot through. Second unit... there's a second unit? Lastly, the buck has to stop somewhere. Green refuses to load up lines to get things going. This was the rap on him in Utica: stubborn and pigheaded. If he refuses to adapt to the NHL his stint will be a short one. This run of losses puts him closer to the precipice than anyone thinks too, imo. Also, Benning has not changed the roster significantly to give Green much to work with considering all the black holes in the line up. So much for 'depth'. Something is rotten about this team. I don't know enough about the internal workings to put my finger on it. None of us here do. But there are signs. Linden knew enough to bail, and this, my friends, should tell is A LOT about the state of this franchise. The most beloved alumni of all time, had seen and heard enough, took his puck, and went home. All of this being said, there is still hope, probably. Once The Canucks are healthy again, perhaps they can make a run for the playoffs. The Pacific Division is extremely bad so far this season. Whether or not that is what is best for this team at this juncture is up for debate. But this is the goal for the team, and for the fan base. I agree. I highlighted you question and the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealistOptimist Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Why do people look at Michael Del Zotto and Tim Schaller for anything other than roster filler? You don't judge bad teams on the depth players they sign. If we don't need them Roussel and Beagle will be eminently trade-able in 2-3 years even with their $3 million dollar cap hits. They are different from Gagner because they can and should be playing bottom 6 roles. They are perfect grinder type players for playoff teams. The cap was at $75 million last year, this year it's at like $79.5, next year it's projected at $83.5 million and probably up more and more the following years. Their contracts are not albatrosses. Louis Eriksson's contract is probably the only albatross on this team that can't be traded. We should be judging the Canucks on the fact that they have good young players and prospects. I'm not worrying about Wins and Losses right now. I watch every game hoping our young guys score and score lots, I get upset when they get scored on but at the end of the game, if we lose I don't worry about it, I look back on how on young players performed and judge the game based on that. It seems like people keep judging this team as if we are supposed to be a playoff team though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 3 hours ago, ABNucksfan said: If you don’t stick around then your not a true fan anyway. Oops did I just criticize you enough for you to permanently leave? Seems as though you don't really care about the team if you're willing to try and drive people away just to satisfy your ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5nothincanucksohno Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 34 minutes ago, TheRealistOptimist said: Why do people look at Michael Del Zotto and Tim Schaller for anything other than roster filler? You don't judge bad teams on the depth players they sign. If we don't need them Roussel and Beagle will be eminently trade-able in 2-3 years even with their $3 million dollar cap hits. They are different from Gagner because they can and should be playing bottom 6 roles. They are perfect grinder type players for playoff teams. The cap was at $75 million last year, this year it's at like $79.5, next year it's projected at $83.5 million and probably up more and more the following years. Their contracts are not albatrosses. Louis Eriksson's contract is probably the only albatross on this team that can't be traded. We should be judging the Canucks on the fact that they have good young players and prospects. I'm not worrying about Wins and Losses right now. I watch every game hoping our young guys score and score lots, I get upset when they get scored on but at the end of the game, if we lose I don't worry about it, I look back on how on young players performed and judge the game based on that. It seems like people keep judging this team as if we are supposed to be a playoff team though. Well said. It seems like people just want to complain regardless...based on their rationale Shinkaruk and Subban should have been gifted a NHL roster spot five years ago. As you have done, if people were to take a breath they would clearly see Benning's plan and progression over the last 4.5 years: - Benning has only been in charge for 4.5 seasons...or in other words the time it typically takes for prospects to start making an impact. It would be foolish to change course now, especially with the steps the young guys have taken over the last season and a half. - When Benning took over there were no prospects (except for Horvat and Hutton). As a result, he had to trade some draft picks to fill in the mid-twenties age group. - He had to do this while balancing the fact that the Sedins were still on the team. - Focused on the draft - established a clear draft strategy focused on drafting gamers with skill (i.e. high hockey IQ, self driven prospects) - Knowing the growing pains would be significant, Benning signed veteran leaders to support the high end skill he drafted. - With leaders like Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser and Hughes in place the second level prospects will have that much more of an impact. - Not sure why anyone is angry with the season so far - prospects are developing, veterans are in place to protect against loss of culture and the team is in games (they are struggling but they are in games). They could still have a solid second half but if not the team has a shot at drafting another couple of top end players. The next three years should be fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 4 hours ago, THINKER said: What is there to support? When management consistently makes bad decision after bad decision people should be vocal about their displeasure. Just blindly cheering for your team and acting like everything is great, or being complacent with the team, is exactly how some of those teams that had lengthy stays at the bottom got by. No pressure on ownership to make a change, why would they change anything? Some of those "bad decisions" were drafting Boeser instead of Konecny and EP instead of Glass. Virtanen is also showing signs of breaking out offensively, despite all the moaning about that pick. No GM is perfect and pretty much every team in the league has a bad contract. Overall, the team has some young players excelling, with more to come in the near future. A reactionary change because impatient fans like you can't handle a rebuild is likely to result in some of that future being traded for a band-aid solution. Be careful what you wish for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THINKER Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 11 minutes ago, King Heffy said: Some of those "bad decisions" were drafting Boeser instead of Konecny and EP instead of Glass. Virtanen is also showing signs of breaking out offensively, despite all the moaning about that pick. No GM is perfect and pretty much every team in the league has a bad contract. Overall, the team has some young players excelling, with more to come in the near future. A reactionary change because impatient fans like you can't handle a rebuild is likely to result in some of that future being traded for a band-aid solution. Be careful what you wish for. Who said those were bad decisions? Most people who knew about those prospects didn't think those were bad decisions. Virtanen over Ehlers/Nylander was an awful decision. I don't see how you can argue this without completely ignoring what Ehlers and Nylander have done. Juolevi over Tkachuk was also an awful decision. I'm not being impatient, I'm looking at Benning's job performance since he's been here and I recognize how awful it's been. His contracts are awful. His trading hasn't been good. Cap management has been pathetic. Drafting has been merely average. You're just making the mistake of getting all excited about a new shiny prospect, something bad teams get for being bad. Instead, look at the bigger picture and see how this team has been brutally mismanaged during Benning's tenure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THINKER Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 2 hours ago, TheRealistOptimist said: Why do people look at Michael Del Zotto and Tim Schaller for anything other than roster filler? You don't judge bad teams on the depth players they sign. If we don't need them Roussel and Beagle will be eminently trade-able in 2-3 years even with their $3 million dollar cap hits. They are different from Gagner because they can and should be playing bottom 6 roles. They are perfect grinder type players for playoff teams. The cap was at $75 million last year, this year it's at like $79.5, next year it's projected at $83.5 million and probably up more and more the following years. Their contracts are not albatrosses. Louis Eriksson's contract is probably the only albatross on this team that can't be traded. We should be judging the Canucks on the fact that they have good young players and prospects. I'm not worrying about Wins and Losses right now. I watch every game hoping our young guys score and score lots, I get upset when they get scored on but at the end of the game, if we lose I don't worry about it, I look back on how on young players performed and judge the game based on that. It seems like people keep judging this team as if we are supposed to be a playoff team though. Roster filler = 1 year contracts for $1M or less. MDZ, Schaller, Roussel, and Beagle were signed for medium/long-term with sizeable contracts. Who's going to want a $3M 4th liner in a couple years (Beagle) who will be 35/36 and probably not very good? Hell he's not very good right now, he'll only continue to get worse. The Canucks have a couple good young players because bad teams are given high draft picks and thus get good young players. Any bad team will have this. It takes a team with a good GM to actually build a good hockey team, and that's something the Canucks lack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Just now, THINKER said: Who said those were bad decisions? Most people who knew about those prospects didn't think those were bad decisions. Virtanen over Ehlers/Nylander was an awful decision. I don't see how you can argue this without completely ignoring what Ehlers and Nylander have done. Juolevi over Tkachuk was also an awful decision. I'm not being impatient, I'm looking at Benning's job performance since he's been here and I recognize how awful it's been. His contracts are awful. His trading hasn't been good. Cap management has been pathetic. Drafting has been merely average. You're just making the mistake of getting all excited about a new shiny prospect, something bad teams get for being bad. Instead, look at the bigger picture and see how this team has been brutally mismanaged during Benning's tenure. Nylander's one of the biggest floaters in the NHL and plays like a lazy, scared little **** in the playoffs. I don't think either of Toronto's goalies would be able to identify him from a police lineup. I'd rather have Jake who actually seems to care about winning and didn't act like a selfish little puke because his team didn't want to overpay for his inflated production. Ehlers was also a no-show in the playoffs and has inflated numbers playing with Laine. OJ plays a position that needs time and should be given that opportunity to not rush. Benning's done a fine job of restocking a completely bare cupboard due to the extreme mismanagement of the imbecile he replaced. Contracts are going to cost more when you're in a rebuild, and really only the LE contract has any chance of being a hindrance going forward. All the others are short-term placeholders. I also don't have a problem with his trades and rather enjoy having Goldy and Dahlen in the system. As for drafting, I'm also a fan of Demko, DiPietro, Lind, Gadjovich, Briesbois. None of these guys qualify as "shiny new prospects". Gillis destroyed the team with horrible trades and NMC's to the point it would take anyone years to clean up the mess he caused. We're finally recovering as an organization and have a healthy group of youth coming through the system, not just those drafted in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THINKER Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, King Heffy said: Nylander's one of the biggest floaters in the NHL and plays like a lazy, scared little **** in the playoffs. I don't think either of Toronto's goalies would be able to identify him from a police lineup. I'd rather have Jake who actually seems to care about winning and didn't act like a selfish little puke because his team didn't want to overpay for his inflated production. Ehlers was also a no-show in the playoffs and has inflated numbers playing with Laine. OJ plays a position that needs time and should be given that opportunity to not rush. Benning's done a fine job of restocking a completely bare cupboard due to the extreme mismanagement of the imbecile he replaced. Contracts are going to cost more when you're in a rebuild, and really only the LE contract has any chance of being a hindrance going forward. All the others are short-term placeholders. I also don't have a problem with his trades and rather enjoy having Goldy and Dahlen in the system. As for drafting, I'm also a fan of Demko, DiPietro, Lind, Gadjovich, Briesbois. None of these guys qualify as "shiny new prospects". Gillis destroyed the team with horrible trades and NMC's to the point it would take anyone years to clean up the mess he caused. We're finally recovering as an organization and have a healthy group of youth coming through the system, not just those drafted in the first round. Nylander has more career goals in the NHL than Virtanen has points. To suggest Virtanen is a better pick over him is ludicrous and shows your homer bias. As I listed in the Juolevi thread, every defensemen drafted in the top 10 since 2012 (because that's just as far back as I went) who ended up being a top 4 defenseman was in the NHL by his draft +2 season. Juolevi is in his Draft +3 season and still doesn't look anywhere close. You never draft for positional need, always BPA. Tkachuk is one of the top scorers in the league. That was another awful pick. There was never a need to overpay Beagle or Roussel. These aren't guys who you're going to build around. Hell, I'm not even convinced the Canucks are even in a rebuild. Benning hasn't done anything that's consistent with what rebuilding teams do aside from losing. Gillis did not destroy this team, Benning has. It's been 5 years since Gillis was fired...time to put that "but Gillis" lame excuse away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedinyoureyesontheprize Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Anyone who isn’t concerned with a two digit losing record in ~15 games and the impact it could have on the young players if it continues, didn’t pay any attention to the Edmonton Oilers. Edmonton lost so much in so many consecutive years that it took them several years more to regain a winning identity, which seems to be elusive even to this day. Its just not good to be in a losing environment for too long cause they could start forgetting how to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 3 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said: Seems as though you don't really care about the team if you're willing to try and drive people away just to satisfy your ego. Put a Canucks sweater on your Canuck fans in your sig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5nothincanucksohno Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 hour ago, THINKER said: Who said those were bad decisions? Most people who knew about those prospects didn't think those were bad decisions. Virtanen over Ehlers/Nylander was an awful decision. I don't see how you can argue this without completely ignoring what Ehlers and Nylander have done. Juolevi over Tkachuk was also an awful decision. I'm not being impatient, I'm looking at Benning's job performance since he's been here and I recognize how awful it's been. His contracts are awful. His trading hasn't been good. Cap management has been pathetic. Drafting has been merely average. You're just making the mistake of getting all excited about a new shiny prospect, something bad teams get for being bad. Instead, look at the bigger picture and see how this team has been brutally mismanaged during Benning's tenure. Virtanen adds a unique element that not a lot of players offer...speed and true size. Ehlers is solid but disappears come playoff time and I would never want to dedicate $6.9M to Nylander (would be interesting to see how well he does on a different team)...would rather have Virtanen on a reasonable contract and spend big on Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser. Tkachuk is definitely a good player but he is going to get paid huge dollars...again not the guy I would want the Canucks paying big dollars to. Juolevi is a wildcard so hopefully he pans out...if he becomes a legit #3 d-man it is all gravy. Overall drafting has been strong under Benning. People rag on his trading but he hasn't really lost a trade yet except for the Forsling trade. Better trades will be even easier to make with the prospect cupboard continuing to expand. FA signings has be weak but overall it won't have a long-term impact...even Loui's contract won't be a problem long-term. Should get better with a better team to attract FAs. I don't view Benning as making a lot of bad decisions and think you are seriously underestimating the building blocks required to help build a long-term winner (self driven attitude of the players drafted by Benning, the diversity of players acquired by Benning, the veteran support signed by Benning for the young guys, etc.). Maybe TO or Winnipeg win a Cup but except for last year (Winnipeg) neither has yet to have significant playoff success. So much more goes into building a Cup winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5nothincanucksohno Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Setyoureyesontheprize said: Anyone who isn’t concerned with a two digit losing record in ~15 games and the impact it could have on the young players if it continues, didn’t pay any attention to the Edmonton Oilers. Edmonton lost so much in so many consecutive years that it took them several years more to regain a winning identity, which seems to be elusive even to this day. Its just not good to be in a losing environment for too long cause they could start forgetting how to win. Slightly different situation IMHO, those Oiler teams were led by young players who had little interest in the finer details of the game...Horvat and Pettersson both back check, etc. and with the support of the vets added should be able to put the losing streak into perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THINKER Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, 5nothincanucksohno said: Virtanen adds a unique element that not a lot of players offer...speed and true size. Ehlers is solid but disappears come playoff time and I would never want to dedicate $6.9M to Nylander (would be interesting to see how well he does on a different team)...would rather have Virtanen on a reasonable contract and spend big on Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser. Tkachuk is definitely a good player but he is going to get paid huge dollars...again not the guy I would want the Canucks paying big dollars to. Juolevi is a wildcard so hopefully he pans out...if he becomes a legit #3 d-man it is all gravy. Overall drafting has been strong under Benning. People rag on his trading but he hasn't really lost a trade yet except for the Forsling trade. Better trades will be even easier to make with the prospect cupboard continuing to expand. FA signings has be weak but overall it won't have a long-term impact...even Loui's contract won't be a problem long-term. Should get better with a better team to attract FAs. I don't view Benning as making a lot of bad decisions and think you are seriously underestimating the building blocks required to help build a long-term winner (self driven attitude of the players drafted by Benning, the diversity of players acquired by Benning, the veteran support signed by Benning for the young guys, etc.). Maybe TO or Winnipeg win a Cup but except for last year (Winnipeg) neither has yet to have significant playoff success. So much more goes into building a Cup winner Well there's really nothing more to discuss here. You openly admit you would rather have a worse player who's cheaper because the good player costs money. We could fit in Nylander's $6.9M cap hit along with those other players if Benning would stop signing bad contracts. $23.5M wasted on Beagle, Roussel, Eriksson, Sutter, and Gudbranson long-term. I would absolutely be thrilled to pay big dollars to Matthew Tkachuk. He's an excellent hockey player, but again, you admit you prefer a worse player who hasn't been tracking well since his draft. He's not looking like he'll be anything close to a top 3 d-man. No, drafting has not been really strong under Benning. It's been about average. Two blatant misses with the Virtanen and Juolevi picks when people on draft day said there were better players available does not mean he's been really strong at the draft table. He's been average. A couple hits, a couple misses. Outside of the first round there hasn't been much success. I'm not sure what your long-term scope is, but 4 years is long-term. Eriksson has 4 years left on his contract (including this season). Beagle and Roussel have 4 years left. Gudbranson and Sutter each have 3 years left. Those are terrible contracts which will hurt this team. I think you are seriously overestimating what Benning has done here. He's built a team with a prospect pool that isn't that deep, and now that Pettersson has graduated, the prospect pool doesn't look very good at all. The Canucks have merely 2 Benning draft picks on its main roster right now. And the team is full of bad contracts. There's almost nothing on the back end, and nothing on the wings. The Canucks aren't anywhere close, thanks to Benning's dreadful management of this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, 5nothincanucksohno said: Virtanen adds a unique element that not a lot of players offer...speed and true size. Ehlers is solid but disappears come playoff time and I would never want to dedicate $6.9M to Nylander (would be interesting to see how well he does on a different team)...would rather have Virtanen on a reasonable contract and spend big on Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser. Tkachuk is definitely a good player but he is going to get paid huge dollars...again not the guy I would want the Canucks paying big dollars to. Juolevi is a wildcard so hopefully he pans out...if he becomes a legit #3 d-man it is all gravy. Overall drafting has been strong under Benning. People rag on his trading but he hasn't really lost a trade yet except for the Forsling trade. Better trades will be even easier to make with the prospect cupboard continuing to expand. FA signings has be weak but overall it won't have a long-term impact...even Loui's contract won't be a problem long-term. Should get better with a better team to attract FAs. I don't view Benning as making a lot of bad decisions and think you are seriously underestimating the building blocks required to help build a long-term winner (self driven attitude of the players drafted by Benning, the diversity of players acquired by Benning, the veteran support signed by Benning for the young guys, etc.). Maybe TO or Winnipeg win a Cup but except for last year (Winnipeg) neither has yet to have significant playoff success. So much more goes into building a Cup winner Based on that big sample size? Meh Lots of guys play hurt and don’t perform like you’d expect in the playoffs. Lets see what he does this spring before we really hang that on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THINKER Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 9 minutes ago, 5nothincanucksohno said: Slightly different situation IMHO, those Oiler teams were led by young players who had little interest in the finer details of the game...Horvat and Pettersson both back check, etc. and with the support of the vets added should be able to put the losing streak into perspective. Are you referring to reigning league MVP Taylor Hall? Those Oiler teams had some young players at the top of their lineup, but the rest of their lineup was chock full of veterans who weren't very good. Players like Boyd Gordon, Ales Hemsky, Ryan Smyth, Shawn Horcoff, Eric Belanger. As well as nothing on the back end. Sounds awfully similar to the Canucks current set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealistOptimist Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 4 hours ago, THINKER said: Nylander has more career goals in the NHL than Virtanen has points. To suggest Virtanen is a better pick over him is ludicrous and shows your homer bias. As I listed in the Juolevi thread, every defensemen drafted in the top 10 since 2012 (because that's just as far back as I went) who ended up being a top 4 defenseman was in the NHL by his draft +2 season. Juolevi is in his Draft +3 season and still doesn't look anywhere close. You never draft for positional need, always BPA. Tkachuk is one of the top scorers in the league. That was another awful pick. There was never a need to overpay Beagle or Roussel. These aren't guys who you're going to build around. Hell, I'm not even convinced the Canucks are even in a rebuild. Benning hasn't done anything that's consistent with what rebuilding teams do aside from losing. Gillis did not destroy this team, Benning has. It's been 5 years since Gillis was fired...time to put that "but Gillis" lame excuse away. If you don't think 90% GM's in the league could do what Gillis did as GM of the Canucks then the discussion should end there. Gillis had these players on the roster when he took over: 4 maybe 5 out of top 6 Forwards 1st line Center - Henrik Sedin - in his prime - ended up an MVP 1st line LW - Daniel Sedin - in his prime - ended up an MVP 2nd line C - Ryan Kesler - 24 years old, ended up a Selke trophy winner 1st/2nd line W - Alex Burrows W - Mayson Raymond W - J. Hansen 5 out of top 6 Dmen Alex Edler Kevin Bieksa Matthias Ohlund Sami Salo Willie Mitchell 2 Good Goalies Roberto Luongo Cory Schneider Gillis didn't have to do terribly much to fill out the roster his Core was already in place when he took over and as they got better all he had to do was add some FA here or there and make some depth trades. He made some good trades but the majority were inconsequential. Here are a list of players Gillis missed out on drafting (these guys were all picked within 5 picks after the Canucks selection: 2008 POS GP POINTS 2011 POS GP POINTS Erik Karlsson (15) D 655 534 Rickard Rakell (30) C 348 218 Justin Schultz (43) D 411 191 Vincent Trochek (64) C 328 226 2009 POS GP POINTS Johnny Gaudreau (104) W 339 319 Marcus Johansson (24) LW 554 314 2012 POS GP POINTS Dmitry Orlov (55) D 391 133 Tanner Pearson (30) W 334 148 Cody Eakin (85) C 484 198 Damon Severson (60) D 305 108 Plus he traded away a 3rd round pick that became Jaccob Slavin (120) D 253 92 Brayden McNabb (66) D 342 67 Plus he traded away a 3rd Rounder who became: 2010 POS GP POINTS Frederik Andersen (87) G 279 163 wins Evgeny Kuznetsov (26) C 360 289 and a 4th Rounder who became: Jason Zucker (59) W 356 189 Josh Anderson (95) W 185 78 Joakim Nordstrom (90) C 307 54 2013 POS GP POINTS Brendan Gallagher (147) W 433 256 Shea Theodore (26) D 142 61 Mark Stone (178) W 334 278 Tyler Bertuzzi (58) W 82 40 Oliver Bjorkstrand (89) W 141 65 Can you imagine if Gillis would've hit on just 25-30% of these. Right now its still really early to judge Benning's drafts but out of 5 years, he has arguably only missed on maybe 5 picks and traded away 2 picks that are pretty good prospects...but realistically too early to judge. In 6 drafts Gillis only drafted 7 players that have played over 50 games in the NHL and it's been 5 years since his last draft In 5 drafts Benning has already drafted 5 players who have played over 50 games in the NHL and 2 more will probably play over 50 this year. That doesn't even include some of Canucks top prospects. Gillis did some good things but he didn't have to trade away aging veterans with NMC's and NTC's and try and build a new Core. People love to harp on Benning's signings and the contracts given out but none of them have hindered the Canucks salary cap situation and none of the will. Everybody can agree Louis Eriksson was a bad signing but he can be bought out in a year or 2, so yet again it is inconsequential to the Canucks future. As a bad team with maybe the worst travel schedule in the entire NHL, you have to overpay UFA's in either years or money to sign them. Obviously you wish you could sign players to team friendly deals all the time but it's just not realistic when you're a bad team. Anyways I know that's a lot but over the last few years listening to all the people rave about how good of a job Gillis did and just s*** on Benning has been really frustrating. All they seem to do is say Gillis was GM for the 2011 Stanley Cup Final therefore he was a great GM and Benning has been GM while the Canucks have been mostly bad, therefore he is a terrible GM, meanwhile people don't look at the the facts or the situations each were given/performing in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealistOptimist Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 I guess one thing that won't come across in the above post, is that I don't think Benning is perfect. There are certain players I would've drafted over the ones he did but like most fans who am I...I'm not a scout. Of course there are UFA signings Benning has made that I don't agree with, but generally speaking I think people make a bigger deal about them than need be. I also love the concept of rebuilding in terms of trading away vets for as many draft picks as possible and playing a whole team full of young kids. But just because Benning hasn't done that/isn't doing that 100% to my liking, it doesn't mean he's doing a poor job. Benning may not be the Canucks GM for much longer but I think we will all be benefiting from his time as GM for a long time, as the Canucks turn the corner and become a Cup contending team again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 6 hours ago, THINKER said: Well there's really nothing more to discuss here. You openly admit you would rather have a worse player who's cheaper because the good player costs money. We could fit in Nylander's $6.9M cap hit along with those other players if Benning would stop signing bad contracts. $23.5M wasted on Beagle, Roussel, Eriksson, Sutter, and Gudbranson long-term. I would absolutely be thrilled to pay big dollars to Matthew Tkachuk. He's an excellent hockey player, but again, you admit you prefer a worse player who hasn't been tracking well since his draft. He's not looking like he'll be anything close to a top 3 d-man. No, drafting has not been really strong under Benning. It's been about average. Two blatant misses with the Virtanen and Juolevi picks when people on draft day said there were better players available does not mean he's been really strong at the draft table. He's been average. A couple hits, a couple misses. Outside of the first round there hasn't been much success. I'm not sure what your long-term scope is, but 4 years is long-term. Eriksson has 4 years left on his contract (including this season). Beagle and Roussel have 4 years left. Gudbranson and Sutter each have 3 years left. Those are terrible contracts which will hurt this team. I think you are seriously overestimating what Benning has done here. He's built a team with a prospect pool that isn't that deep, and now that Pettersson has graduated, the prospect pool doesn't look very good at all. The Canucks have merely 2 Benning draft picks on its main roster right now. And the team is full of bad contracts. There's almost nothing on the back end, and nothing on the wings. The Canucks aren't anywhere close, thanks to Benning's dreadful management of this team. Disagree. This is the last year of Edler, MDZ, Hutton, Next year its Tanev, Gagner, Stecher, Schaller. In two seasons from now Guddy, Baertschi and Sutters contracts are up. The year after its Beagle and Roussel and Little things (the real anchor) When do you think we will be competitive/playoff competitive again. Our younger players need seasoning. It take more than 2 seasons for them to mature properly. There will be plenty of money availble to sign big FA’s + pay our own stars once they need to be paid properly. Very few veterans will sign here for small change and or short term contracts. They also know we are in a rebuilding mode, so their chance of playoffs - honours are gone for the next few years at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vannuck59 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 When we get back to firing on all cylinders , Everyone healthy I see a much better team. A .500 winning record at best. The biggest thing holding the Canucks back is the defense . And that's not going to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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