brownky Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Dazzle said: There's also the issue that you can't be passing to EP every single time because it's much too easy to just guard his threat. Instead, you want to look for other options. The problem is that nobody else is REALLY open. I do believe that Goldy is an above-average passer, but people need to get open for him to dish it out. The problem is, and has been for a few years now, that people on the powerplay do not move their feet, at all. It's like the moment there's a zone setup, 3 of the 5 guys on the ice are now planted like their feet are encased in concrete. If a D-man blocks the lane, they just pass to someone else (also stationary) or dump it in the corner where one of the otherwise stationary people have to go get it, usually at a disadvantage to the defender who has read that play and is already about to clear the zone. It's a ridiculously easy powerplay to defend against once you know what is coming. 1-3 high to start, somebody fast; try to intercept or disrupt the guaranteed drop pass from the defenceman. That guy curls back and follows the play at speed - knowing the Canucks won't do anything on the rush but wait for zone setup. This allows the defensive zone guys to form their box and keep sticks in the passing lanes, stretching to meet the shooters at the edges. Since nobody moves, it's pretty easy to maintain the coverage without tiring too too badly. Rinse and repeat. It won't always work defensively, but in the last 10 or so it seems to be working pretty well for other teams doing exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 I think this trade say volumes about our LW situation...…..long term what it means to me is...………………... 1. Baertschi's concussions are becoming a real concern to Benning 2. Benning isn't sold on Goldobin 3. Dahlen is not showing any adjustment in Utica 4. Gadjovich is years away, if ever...……... 5. None of the veteran incumbent's are being considered I don't think that is news or anything, but just think it is a state of the union address Watch for the Canucks to draft a LW/C or a LW with their first pick, someone that can play the boards well, has hockey IQ, and the speed to play with Pettersson. That or they go after a UFA in Panarin or Stone. Or both the pick and the UFA, because honestly...…..I am not sure there is either a 1st line LW or a honest 2nd line LW on that list.... Time will tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 20 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: I think this trade say volumes about our LW situation...…..long term what it means to me is...………………... 1. Baertschi's concussions are becoming a real concern to Benning 2. Benning isn't sold on Goldobin 3. Dahlen is not showing any adjustment in Utica 4. Gadjovich is years away, if ever...……... 5. None of the veteran incumbent's are being considered I don't think that is news or anything, but just think it is a state of the union address Watch for the Canucks to draft a LW/C or a LW with their first pick, someone that can play the boards well, has hockey IQ, and the speed to play with Pettersson. That or they go after a UFA in Panarin or Stone. Or both the pick and the UFA, because honestly...…..I am not sure there is either a 1st line LW or a honest 2nd line LW on that list.... Time will tell! I agree about the LW worry. I don’t think it particularly means any lack of hope from our current prospects, more that realistically everyone doesn’t work out and our guys aren’t top picks/prospects. We have no top end depth at that position. We need badly need offensively minded puck moving RD prospects, and a couple of LW who have the ceiling of top 6. Easier to get the winger as they have less value, and we have decent Centre depth and some of that can easily be converted to wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 25 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: I think this trade say volumes about our LW situation...…..long term what it means to me is...………………... 1. Baertschi's concussions are becoming a real concern to Benning 2. Benning isn't sold on Goldobin 3. Dahlen is not showing any adjustment in Utica 4. Gadjovich is years away, if ever...……... 5. None of the veteran incumbent's are being considered I don't think that is news or anything, but just think it is a state of the union address Watch for the Canucks to draft a LW/C or a LW with their first pick, someone that can play the boards well, has hockey IQ, and the speed to play with Pettersson. That or they go after a UFA in Panarin or Stone. Or both the pick and the UFA, because honestly...…..I am not sure there is either a 1st line LW or a honest 2nd line LW on that list.... Time will tell! I don't think you have to assume Benning, or anyone (except CDC LOL) is writing off Baer. Or any of our LW's. Maybe Leipsic? Gaunce... It is an area of need. And Leivo, albeit in small samples, was producing at a 40 or 50 point pace in the games he played in the NHL.Until injuries and the depth chart on a good team got him. Was extremely productive, and a fast, big body in the AHL. He should also not be seen as a solution as our ''next'' top line winger. He's just a low cost crack at filling a need. Like Baertschi was as well, very Benning style BTW, at an even lower cost. Its just an opportunity to get a very decent player at that low cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 23 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: I think this trade say volumes about our LW situation...…..long term what it means to me is...………………... 1. Baertschi's concussions are becoming a real concern to Benning 2. Benning isn't sold on Goldobin 3. Dahlen is not showing any adjustment in Utica 4. Gadjovich is years away, if ever...……... 5. None of the veteran incumbent's are being considered I don't think that is news or anything, but just think it is a state of the union address Watch for the Canucks to draft a LW/C or a LW with their first pick, someone that can play the boards well, has hockey IQ, and the speed to play with Pettersson. That or they go after a UFA in Panarin or Stone. Or both the pick and the UFA, because honestly...…..I am not sure there is either a 1st line LW or a honest 2nd line LW on that list.... Time will tell! Or perhaps Benning saw an opportunity to improve the team and jumped on it quickly, then will let the rest sort itself out. He said he had been keeping tabs on Leivo for a while and with Nylander coming back, Benning knew someone had to be moved (and for lower value) and Leivo had already said he wanted more of an opportunity. It's questionable whether Carcone will amount to anything at the NHL level (or was even in our long term plans with guys like Dahlen, Lind, Jasek, etc coming up) and we needed to try and see if we can fill the gap currently left by Baertschi. I don't think this trade says much about our LW situation because it was simply a good trade to make and hopefully it'll be an upgrade on depth like Leipsic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, brownky said: The problem is, and has been for a few years now, that people on the powerplay do not move their feet, at all. It's like the moment there's a zone setup, 3 of the 5 guys on the ice are now planted like their feet are encased in concrete. If a D-man blocks the lane, they just pass to someone else (also stationary) or dump it in the corner where one of the otherwise stationary people have to go get it, usually at a disadvantage to the defender who has read that play and is already about to clear the zone. It's a ridiculously easy powerplay to defend against once you know what is coming. 1-3 high to start, somebody fast; try to intercept or disrupt the guaranteed drop pass from the defenceman. That guy curls back and follows the play at speed - knowing the Canucks won't do anything on the rush but wait for zone setup. This allows the defensive zone guys to form their box and keep sticks in the passing lanes, stretching to meet the shooters at the edges. Since nobody moves, it's pretty easy to maintain the coverage without tiring too too badly. Rinse and repeat. It won't always work defensively, but in the last 10 or so it seems to be working pretty well for other teams doing exactly that. I agree about thepp's. When I coach, I preach to players that they shouldn't change their play all that much on the pp, aside from always making sure they have the number advantage around the puck. If you play the pp a little closer to 5v5 style, you force the pk'ers to play that way as well and you make them move, engage and get out of position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 45 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: I think this trade say volumes about our LW situation...…..long term what it means to me is...………………... 1. Baertschi's concussions are becoming a real concern to Benning 2. Benning isn't sold on Goldobin 3. Dahlen is not showing any adjustment in Utica 4. Gadjovich is years away, if ever...……... 5. None of the veteran incumbent's are being considered I don't think that is news or anything, but just think it is a state of the union address Watch for the Canucks to draft a LW/C or a LW with their first pick, someone that can play the boards well, has hockey IQ, and the speed to play with Pettersson. That or they go after a UFA in Panarin or Stone. Or both the pick and the UFA, because honestly...…..I am not sure there is either a 1st line LW or a honest 2nd line LW on that list.... Time will tell! I'd say you're off on #2 and #3, but I get you take a more pessimistic approach to the org. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 I would say #2 is probably correct, when EPs not there showing him the way he gets very lazy on D. #3 is just demonstrably wrong. Dahlen has made big strides so far this year. Of all the prized wingers starting the year he is the most consistently in the lineup and is starting to score consistently. Lind has been injured, Gadjo and Palmu are in and out of the lineup. They are all very, very early in their pro careers so give some time to the Utica crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Yeah, don't get me wrong fellas, I am quite happy to add Leivo and hope he is a hidden gem, and time will tell, if he is a good addition or not, but the addition was initiated by Benning as per the media stories...to me that speaks volumes, and shouldn't be ignored. It should also be noted that Leivo was basically not worth keeping on a top end, Toronto team, which says a lot about where we are, and not so much about Leivo. "IF" he turns in a late developer, and fits in well with Horvat or Pettersson, that would be fantastic, and I commend Benning for making the trade (IMO an upgrade in assets). The comments out of Toronto is that he has some game, and if he ever turned into a late developing top 2 LW, I would be elated. But again, as I look at who responded to my last comment, you guys above most others, should know that there has been a big void at LW, as all that have had auditions in that spot have in one way or another come up short in one aspect or another. Not trying to be half empty here, just pointing out what I feel is the obvious statement by Benning adding Leivo……..not that he would or would not be a good addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 43 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: I don't think you have to assume Benning, or anyone (except CDC LOL) is writing off Baer. Or any of our LW's. Maybe Leipsic? Gaunce... It is an area of need. And Leivo, albeit in small samples, was producing at a 40 or 50 point pace in the games he played in the NHL.Until injuries and the depth chart on a good team got him. Was extremely productive, and a fast, big body in the AHL. He should also not be seen as a solution as our ''next'' top line winger. He's just a low cost crack at filling a need. Like Baertschi was as well, very Benning style BTW, at an even lower cost. Its just an opportunity to get a very decent player at that low cost. "Concern", Surfer "concern". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: Yeah, don't get me wrong fellas, I am quite happy to add Leivo and hope he is a hidden gem, and time will tell, if he is a good addition or not, but the addition was initiated by Benning as per the media stories...to me that speaks volumes, and shouldn't be ignored. It should also be noted that Leivo was basically not worth keeping on a top end, Toronto team, which says a lot about where we are, and not so much about Leivo. "IF" he turns in a late developer, and fits in well with Horvat or Pettersson, that would be fantastic, and I commend Benning for making the trade (IMO an upgrade in assets). The comments out of Toronto is that he has some game, and if he ever turned into a late developing top 2 LW, I would be elated. But again, as I look at who responded to my last comment, you guys above most others, should know that there has been a big void at LW, as all that have had auditions in that spot have in one way or another come up short in one aspect or another. Not trying to be half empty here, just pointing out what I feel is the obvious statement by Benning adding Leivo……..not that he would or would not be a good addition. No doubt a huge hole on left wing in the NHL made worse with Baerschi out. Leivo was a really good pickup wether he works out or not. Worth the shot, cost nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therodigy Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said: I think this trade say volumes about our LW situation...…..long term what it means to me is...………………... 1. Baertschi's concussions are becoming a real concern to Benning 2. Benning isn't sold on Goldobin 3. Dahlen is not showing any adjustment in Utica 4. Gadjovich is years away, if ever...……... 5. None of the veteran incumbent's are being considered I don't think that is news or anything, but just think it is a state of the union address Watch for the Canucks to draft a LW/C or a LW with their first pick, someone that can play the boards well, has hockey IQ, and the speed to play with Pettersson. That or they go after a UFA in Panarin or Stone. Or both the pick and the UFA, because honestly...…..I am not sure there is either a 1st line LW or a honest 2nd line LW on that list.... Time will tell! I agree with most of what you've said. Beartschi's injury status has certainly been a hiccup this season, as it had in the previous two. With respect to Goldy, he hasn't proven that he's a reliable staple in the top 6 over a full season yet. If he comes out with over 40 points, however, I'd be satisfied. But yes, definitely not a sure keeper. Dahlen had a quiet week this past week, statistically speaking. Hard to have a solid opinion on him as I haven't been watching any Comets coverage lately. I think it's poor planning to expect him in the starting line-up next year. For me I'd like to gauge another season in the A, see if he's made an improvement to his current 0.5 p/g progression. Really gunning for Gadjovich. He's still only 20, it's his rookie season in the A. I'm really hoping he doesn't Cole Cassel his way to Europe, post-ELC. Based on the potential line-ups at practice, I wouldn't be surprised to see Eriksson scratched to have a closer look at Leivo. Schaller's already in the pressbox. Roussel is great on the 3rd or 4th line, but a bit over his head in the top 6. Granny could see a another 19 goal season lined up with EP, which could be encouraging. Unfortunately, I think I'd rather see 25 goals/ 50 points coming from EP's linemates, and Granny has yet to crack 20 goals or 40 points. Here's to a little more certainty in the next year or two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboose Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 This guy is some player. Really sad to see him leave Toronto but wish him the best in Vancouver! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryberg Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said: I don't think you have to assume Benning, or anyone (except CDC LOL) is writing off Baer. Or any of our LW's. Maybe Leipsic? Gaunce... Just maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortorella's Rant Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Only on this forum does a minor league trade generate a 21+ page thread.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 38 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: Yeah, don't get me wrong fellas, I am quite happy to add Leivo and hope he is a hidden gem, and time will tell, if he is a good addition or not, but the addition was initiated by Benning as per the media stories...to me that speaks volumes, and shouldn't be ignored. It should also be noted that Leivo was basically not worth keeping on a top end, Toronto team, which says a lot about where we are, and not so much about Leivo. "IF" he turns in a late developer, and fits in well with Horvat or Pettersson, that would be fantastic, and I commend Benning for making the trade (IMO an upgrade in assets). The comments out of Toronto is that he has some game, and if he ever turned into a late developing top 2 LW, I would be elated. But again, as I look at who responded to my last comment, you guys above most others, should know that there has been a big void at LW, as all that have had auditions in that spot have in one way or another come up short in one aspect or another. Not trying to be half empty here, just pointing out what I feel is the obvious statement by Benning adding Leivo……..not that he would or would not be a good addition. There's no doubt that Benning is trying to address the whole currently left by Baertschi, but I don't think it's as extreme as suggesting we have a major LW problem that runs through our entire system. We could have gone for a waiver option, but IMO Leivo is likely better than the waiver options that had been available and move a piece to ensure he gets the guy versus another team that could use the help as well if he hit waivers. LA is swiping everyone they can and St Louis is running into injury problems. Leivo is on a very cheap contract that would attract teams. So to me Benning made the first move because he saw the chance at getting good value and could help a current need as well. It's just Benning doing his job rather than any statement IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said: I think this trade say volumes about our LW situation...…..long term what it means to me is...………………... 1. Baertschi's concussions are becoming a real concern to Benning 2. Benning isn't sold on Goldobin 3. Dahlen is not showing any adjustment in Utica 4. Gadjovich is years away, if ever...……... 5. None of the veteran incumbent's are being considered I don't think that is news or anything, but just think it is a state of the union address Watch for the Canucks to draft a LW/C or a LW with their first pick, someone that can play the boards well, has hockey IQ, and the speed to play with Pettersson. That or they go after a UFA in Panarin or Stone. Or both the pick and the UFA, because honestly...…..I am not sure there is either a 1st line LW or a honest 2nd line LW on that list.... Time will tell! I think you're getting way ahead of yourself. This says absolutely nothing about Benning's perspective regarding Goldobin. Teams need 4 LW - this team is missing Baertschi and waived Leipsic, simple as that - while Pettersson is proving ready to play center at the NHL level (and moving him to wing is not an option in any event as the team lacks to veteran centers). You're also way off on Dahlen - don't appear to be tracking him: "Johnson : Dahlen is doing well. We have given him every resource possible and he is taking full advantage of that. Improving his game and understanding the little things is what he is going through right now. " Folks have this tendency to pretend to be able to write-off prospects at the quarter-pole of rookie AHL seasons. Gadjovich is a 19/20 yr old. Rinse and repeat. The veteran 'incumbents' were brought in to play shutdown, period. Roussel, Schaller - are prototypical 'bottom 6' forwards, period. Beagle is a center - a hard-minutes, shutdown center. Again, the Leivo acquisiton has literally nothing to do with these players. The team needed a winger capable of playing a solid two way game, going to the hard areas, forechecking - and this was a low cost option - that makes perfect transition sense, and who could thrive - you just don't know until you try/see him here. He's an option to play dual duty on a Horvat line, or he's an option to play middle six enabling them to elevate a player like Granlund. The entirety of your post is an over-projection of the meaning of a single, relatively minor deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 15 minutes ago, coryberg said: Just maybe Reading comprehension huh? Too bad a I read here first Leipsic got claimed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Any player deserves a shot if he can prove to the coach he deserves it with appropriate work rate and performance. But I also agree with Pav below. Just because we have a new shiny toy. May not automatically mean he is top 6 material? Bo, like when Kesler played more minutes than Hank (every year) is hands down our 2C. And the most important player ATM. Because he lets Pettersson be deployed favorably. And handles defensive deployments while Sutter & Beagle are out. I like this cautionary not. Lets let the coach decide if he's a top 6 forward. What I can say with a similar cautionary certainty? If he was not a top 6 forward at age 25 in Toronto. He probably wont be a lock down top 6 here. But we are not as strong a team. And there is a good probability he can play some top 6 minutes here! I like the pick up! I think he will play top six minutes for us, and might come out strong out of the gate but long term as our team improves and injured bodies come back he is not a top 6 player on a playoff team. If he could become a solid third liner that can pot in 10-15 goals a season, i still think this deal has to be considered a steal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 2 hours ago, janisahockeynut said: I think this trade say volumes about our LW situation...…..long term what it means to me is...………………... 1. Baertschi's concussions are becoming a real concern to Benning 2. Benning isn't sold on Goldobin 3. Dahlen is not showing any adjustment in Utica 4. Gadjovich is years away, if ever...……... 5. None of the veteran incumbent's are being considered I don't think that is news or anything, but just think it is a state of the union address Watch for the Canucks to draft a LW/C or a LW with their first pick, someone that can play the boards well, has hockey IQ, and the speed to play with Pettersson. That or they go after a UFA in Panarin or Stone. Or both the pick and the UFA, because honestly...…..I am not sure there is either a 1st line LW or a honest 2nd line LW on that list.... Time will tell! I dont think this trade is the result of the issues listed above nor addresses those issues. I'm sure the organization is aware of the need for a top line LW to play with either Bo or Petey as well as top pairing RD. Trading Carcone will not generate the return to solve those problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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