Chris12345 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 hour ago, canucksnihilist said: I really think that franchise players are overpaid. Generational is over-used. IMHO there are only a few generational players in recent memory: Gretzky and Mario. they scored close to double what anyone else was scoring - and that is what I would call generational. Crosby is a franchise elite player - but he is no Mario. imho he isn't generational. This generation doesn't have an obvious player who takes over the game like those 2 did. not all the time. Maybe it was the concussions that hindered Crosby, I don't know. but in any case Crosby isn't in the same league as Gretz or Mario. McDavid isn't generational either. In the middle of a pack of really awesome players - but these players aren't scoring 50 points more than the next group. If Mario was playing now it would be obvious. EP deserves a good contract, as a solid franchise elite player. but he isn't generational. Maybe he will turn into a player like that, but I am doubtful. I guess that paying players at the top of their class is expected, so whatever - I assume he will get a ton of $. I just hope it is reasonable and that he doesn't hurt the franchise by wanting too much. You are hired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beni Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 4 hours ago, canucksnihilist said: I really think that franchise players are overpaid. Generational is over-used. IMHO there are only a few generational players in recent memory: Gretzky and Mario. they scored close to double what anyone else was scoring - and that is what I would call generational. Crosby is a franchise elite player - but he is no Mario. imho he isn't generational. This generation doesn't have an obvious player who takes over the game like those 2 did. not all the time. Maybe it was the concussions that hindered Crosby, I don't know. but in any case Crosby isn't in the same league as Gretz or Mario. McDavid isn't generational either. In the middle of a pack of really awesome players - but these players aren't scoring 50 points more than the next group. If Mario was playing now it would be obvious. EP deserves a good contract, as a solid franchise elite player. but he isn't generational. Maybe he will turn into a player like that, but I am doubtful. I guess that paying players at the top of their class is expected, so whatever - I assume he will get a ton of $. I just hope it is reasonable and that he doesn't hurt the franchise by wanting too much. The problem with this thinking is that guys like Crosby, Ovi, McDavid would have been putting up points like Gretzky and Mario were. The game is totally different, an average NHL'r now would look above average back then. Mario and Gretzky would not put up numbers like they did in today's game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBackup Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, beni said: The problem with this thinking is that guys like Crosby, Ovi, McDavid would have been putting up points like Gretzky and Mario were. The game is totally different, an average NHL'r now would look above average back then. Mario and Gretzky would not put up numbers like they did in today's game. That's not fair either. Yeah if you plucked them out of their respective eras and took them through a time machine in today's game their numbers wouldn't be as high, but they also wouldn't have the benefit of training/development for the modern game like the modern players either. It simply isn't fair to compare players whose careers are decades apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman64 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 On 12/16/2018 at 11:00 PM, Deets said: 18 mil a season? Put the bottle down. Or crack pipe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman64 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 On 12/16/2018 at 10:55 PM, Ryzen said: It's possible when in 3 years Elias Petterson is do for his contract it could be worth anywhere from $100Million-$150Million over 8 Years! I personally believe he is the next Gretzky of the NHL... Give him a couple more years and beef up another 10pds and experience with more skilled players. I'm calling it now... What do you think? No pressure hey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 29 minutes ago, beni said: The problem with this thinking is that guys like Crosby, Ovi, McDavid would have been putting up points like Gretzky and Mario were. The game is totally different, an average NHL'r now would look above average back then. Mario and Gretzky would not put up numbers like they did in today's game. The point the poster was making is that Gretzky and Mario were miles ahead of their competition when they played. Gretzky was winning scoring titles by over 70 points more than the next guy. That is not happening today or at any other time in recent memory. If McDavid is so good why is he not leading the league by 20 points right now? He's not even leading the league, there are several players ahead of him. Same with Crosby. He never won a scoring title by 50 points like Gretzky or Mario. That's the point. It would be very hard to take a 1985 Gretzky and plop him into 2018 to see how he would do. But then again Gretzky won the scoring title at 33 years old in 1994, beating out Jagr, Fedorov and Bure when they were only in their early 20"s. Can you explain how that would occur unless Gretzky was the greatest ever? And he did it playing in LA not Edmonton with all of their star players surrounding him. I'd really like to see if McDavid can win the scoring title when he's 33. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 37 minutes ago, Bitter Melon said: That's not fair either. Yeah if you plucked them out of their respective eras and took them through a time machine in today's game their numbers wouldn't be as high, but they also wouldn't have the benefit of training/development for the modern game like the modern players either. It simply isn't fair to compare players whose careers are decades apart. You also need to consider the equipment in today's game, specifically the stick. Imagine if Gretzky and Mario were able to use today's sticks back in 1987? Gretzky could have broken 300 points... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: The point the poster was making is that Gretzky and Mario were miles ahead of their competition when they played. Gretzky was winning scoring titles by over 70 points more than the next guy. That is not happening today or at any other time in recent memory. If McDavid is so good why is he not leading the league by 20 points right now? He's not even leading the league, there are several players ahead of him. Same with Crosby. He never won a scoring title by 50 points like Gretzky or Mario. That's the point. It would be very hard to take a 1985 Gretzky and plop him into 2018 to see how he would do. But then again Gretzky won the scoring title at 33 years old in 1994, beating out Jagr, Fedorov and Bure when they were only in their early 20"s. Can you explain how that would occur unless Gretzky was the greatest ever? And he did it playing in LA not Edmonton with all of their star players surrounding him. I'd really like to see if McDavid can win the scoring title when he's 33. Beat me to it. Also he played in the clutch and grab era and with a red line (with the trap for a few years at the end). Go back and watch the type of goals Mario was scoring with guys draped over him, hooking him etc...he’d score a lot more now IMO then he was then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 8 hours ago, beni said: The problem with this thinking is that guys like Crosby, Ovi, McDavid would have been putting up points like Gretzky and Mario were. The game is totally different, an average NHL'r now would look above average back then. Mario and Gretzky would not put up numbers like they did in today's game. The only thing that’s different now is more guys skate faster, they still had fast players then too though, no red line and favourable reffing (no clutch and grab allowed), and bigger butterfly goalies. The way Gartner was timed has still not been beaten (McDavid is faster though), and a lot of guys could skate 14 second laps back then too... The average NHLer would put up around the same points as an average NHLer back then. There were only 21 teams, the talent level was pretty good then aside from goaltending, which was good too, it’s a lot easier to stop pucks dropping to your knees and covering the posts anytime a player shoots and hoping it hits you instead of actually moving a leg or arm and stopping the puck. The butterfly just plays the percentages and 9 out of 10 goals used to be scored along the ice back then.. I agree the wouldn’t put up as many points, but they would still lap the competition as in score 170-180 in their best seasons instead 199-200plus. Because they did it then too. Only Yzerman and Nicols had seasons of 150 points in the 80’s, and one of them was Gretzkys wing man for his. The rest of the pack were scoring 115-120 points or less for the most part. Not much different than what we can expect with this year or last year with McDavid etc. The 80’s had 21 teams too, now we have 31 soon to be 32. A lot less jobs. And look at the crop of players that played back then, it’s pretty sick. Watching the summit series again is a painful process...because it’s so slow. Watching the 87 series holds up as the best hockey ever played to this day though. Just brilliant, the talent level was at an all time high which also had something to do with sp being lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VancouverIteinSanDiego Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Like they say pay your stars and the best make $1mil players play like$6mil. Trouble is when you pay 3rd.and 4th liners to much or like Blackhawks paying older players with large cap hits and NTC So I'd rather pay Petey when he is 20-30 then when he is 33-40 and put us in cap hell on his declining numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 51 minutes ago, VancouverIteinSanDiego said: Like they say pay your stars and the best make $1mil players play like$6mil. Trouble is when you pay 3rd.and 4th liners to much or like Blackhawks paying older players with large cap hits and NTC So I'd rather pay Petey when he is 20-30 then when he is 33-40 and put us in cap hell on his declining numbers If it were only that simple. GMs are ok with paying players their money contracts when they have proved their worth (third contract), the problem with giving them top dollar right out of their ELCs is who really knows yet what will happen. Maybe they excel, maybe they don’t, that’s why bridge contracts are important. Pre-paying for possible production will ruin the cap system, it simply can’t afford it (both because of the whiplash for paying one or two year wonders that don’t work out and becuase it would further escalate salaries). Burke has been beating this bush since he got an offer sheet on Penner for 5 million from Lowe in EDM. His response was accurate, Penner was never worth it and received UFA blue chip money at the time for 35-40 points (it’s like throwing a hand grenade into negotiations for every other GM out there)..not saying EP is going to do that, but he should not as responsible managers, be paid third contract money. He will be richer then his wildest dreams anyways, he doesn’t have the pedigree to deserve more than 10 million, and even that might escalate salaries depending on his production over the next couple years (he has yet to prove he can play 80 games in this league) Yes blue chip players often get their best value for the team on their second contracts (Karlsson, Tavares, Kucherov, Toews, Kane etc.) but that’s how it’s supposed to be. Vets have earned their pay-cheque (which is why I never really quibbled over then Sedins last contract), you pay a premium for blue chippers it’s been that way for decades...if second contracts start looking like third contracts, the cap system will fail miserably, total vanilla all around, who knows who will win a cup on a given year, and any sort of rivalry’s will dissolve and pampered players will get paid just because they might work out. Burke is right, GMs could ruin it if they aren’t careful as much as I Hope Pettersson and Boeser are worth what they get paid, Benning needs to be firm in what he hands out, just like he was with Horvat it we are to have any chance at contending with this core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro17 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 14 minutes ago, IBatch said: If it were only that simple. GMs are ok with paying players their money contracts when they have proved their worth (third contract), the problem with giving them top dollar right out of their ELCs is who really knows yet what will happen. Maybe they excel, maybe they don’t, that’s why bridge contracts are important. Pre-paying for possible production will ruin the cap system, it simply can’t afford it (both because of the whiplash for paying one or two year wonders that don’t work out and becuase it would further escalate salaries). Burke has been beating this bush since he got an offer sheet on Penner for 5 million from Lowe in EDM. His response was accurate, Penner was never worth it and received UFA blue chip money at the time for 35-40 points (it’s like throwing a hand grenade into negotiations for every other GM out there)..not saying EP is going to do that, but he should not as responsible managers, be paid third contract money. He will be richer then his wildest dreams anyways, he doesn’t have the pedigree to deserve more than 10 million, and even that might escalate salaries depending on his production over the next couple years (he has yet to prove he can play 80 games in this league) Yes blue chip players often get their best value for the team on their second contracts (Karlsson, Tavares, Kucherov, Toews, Kane etc.) but that’s how it’s supposed to be. Vets have earned their pay-cheque (which is why I never really quibbled over then Sedins last contract), you pay a premium for blue chippers it’s been that way for decades...if second contracts start looking like third contracts, the cap system will fail miserably, total vanilla all around, who knows who will win a cup on a given year, and any sort of rivalry’s will dissolve and pampered players will get paid just because they might work out. Burke is right, GMs could ruin it if they aren’t careful as much as I Hope Pettersson and Boeser are worth what they get paid, Benning needs to be firm in what he hands out, just like he was with Horvat it we are to have any chance at contending with this core. Might actually add excitement to the league as there would be more "Cinderella runs". Not sure about rivalries dissolving though. Hate will always be a thing in the play-offs. Anyways, I hope that Boeser and Pettersson take the hometown discount and create a winning atmosphere for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Sandro17 said: Might actually add excitement to the league as there would be more "Cinderella runs". Not sure about rivalries dissolving though. Hate will always be a thing in the play-offs. Anyways, I hope that Boeser and Pettersson take the hometown discount and create a winning atmosphere for the team. Kind of rambled on a bit, the rivalries have dissipated since the cap, some, including myself, think that has to do with the fact it’s much harder to have two or three great teams in one division duking it out like EDM and CAL, DET and COL, MTL and Boston etc...the hate has gone for the most part,when the Alberta teams went to the final last time they actual rooted for each other, no way you’d see that in the 80-90s. Maybe Boston and MTL still has a bit of a sting given Lucic kept it going, and PHI PIT games too. Vancouver was the third wheel for a while in the late 80s early 90s and CAL/VAN were always hard fought games. Sure we slayed the dragon and had a nice thing going with COL too (again the third wheel with DET, well because we were pretty good too). Point is the best rivalries are when two powerhouses go hammer and tong regularly against each other - you need two contenders in the same division for it to really heat up. Hard to do under the cap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Have a drink bud.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldoescobar Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 We don’t want to go too far with term though just in case... Maybe a 3x$50M bridge/show me what you got deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Not enough. Give him billions! BILLYUNZZZZ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samgagner'sface Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 On December 19, 2018 at 9:24 PM, beni said: The problem with this thinking is that guys like Crosby, Ovi, McDavid would have been putting up points like Gretzky and Mario were. The game is totally different, an average NHL'r now would look above average back then. Mario and Gretzky would not put up numbers like they did in today's game. I think the point was how much better than the rest of the league they both were and I have to agree. The separation between them and the rest was astounding. There isn't a player today who is that much better than everyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cory40 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 On 12/16/2018 at 10:55 PM, Ryzen said: It's possible when in 3 years Elias Petterson is do for his contract it could be worth anywhere from $100Million-$150Million over 8 Years! I personally believe he is the next Gretzky of the NHL... Give him a couple more years and beef up another 10pds and experience with more skilled players. I'm calling it now... What do you think? its been called many times. Only people who get confused are Oiler fans, Elias could be 170 point player! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Could happen if US currency follows the same path as Zimbabwe's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 At this rate, the owners just might as well just sign the ownership of the team to him, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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