[PGT] Vancouver Canucks at Toronto Maple Leafs | Jan. 05, 2019

[Toyotasfan]

My biggest disagreement with Coach Green in his tenure is I still think that without EP in the line up our best chance as a team is to have the killer B’s together. Let Sutter earn his pay check as the shutdown centre and let Bo play offence.

[189lb enforcers?]

Burning out Horvat. 

[TFerguson]

3 hours ago, Pickly said:

This team takes too many nights off. I don’t care how tough a schedule can get during the season, you grind it out and show up to play. Green can’t seem to get the entire team motivated for any one game. If the Pettersson line isn’t firing, the team is doomed from puck drop. Between that and the lack of emotion, I agree with you 1000%. This team is becoming frustrating to watch. 

Sounds like we've been watching different teams. 

 

All year I've impressed with the work ethic of this team. They don't have all the talent in the world, hence TG calling them a "blue collar group" but 9 nights out of ten they show up to work. Sure we've seen a drop off in a few off the games recently but its not hard for me to remember teams since 2012 who would take weeks off at a time. 

 

I like what I'm seeing. The team is learning how to play, handle an NHL schedule, and it's all happening while our blue chip prospects are still developing. The level of frustration expressed here, IMO, can most likely be chalked up to unreasonable expectations considering where the team is in its lifecycle. 

[PistolPete13]

23 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

@PistolPete13 so do you agree it’s a trend with the Canucks only? Sure pettersson is injured but we are getting shutout by supposively a bad defensive team and a backup goalie yet again. Every shutout except price this year have been against the other teams #2 or 3 goalie. Edmonton and Calgary technically is their #1 goalie if u want to go there

Correct Wai_lai16. This guy would have shutout the Canucks tonight.

 

[EdgarM]

42 minutes ago, AllWeatherFan said:

Sounds like we've been watching different teams. 

 

All year I've impressed with the work ethic of this team. They don't have all the talent in the world, hence TG calling them a "blue collar group" but 9 nights out of ten they show up to work. Sure we've seen a drop off in a few off the games recently but its not hard for me to remember teams since 2012 who would take weeks off at a time. 

 

I like what I'm seeing. The team is learning how to play, handle an NHL schedule, and it's all happening while our blue chip prospects are still developing. The level of frustration expressed here, IMO, can most likely be chalked up to unreasonable expectations considering where the team is in its lifecycle. 

I agree with Pickly in that I am seeing this inconsistency as well. I have not seen Virt lay out a bone wrenching body check for many games now as with Gudbranson or Edler. I have not seen any kind of consistent "get up and go" every shift with the exception of maybe EP and Motte and Biega when he is in the line up.

Maybe some are not as bad as Goldy trying to lay a body check or Pouliot trying to stop a guy entering the D zone but it has widdled down since the beginning of the season.

I am seeing "Sedin like" forechecking and back checking and I am not liking it. I seen Bo let his check go(AM) which resulting in a goal and that is not like him.

Actually it seems to have changed around  when Baertchi and Sutter returned , coincidence? or not?

[bigbadcanucks]

1 hour ago, AllWeatherFan said:

Sounds like we've been watching different teams. 

 

All year I've impressed with the work ethic of this team. They don't have all the talent in the world, hence TG calling them a "blue collar group" but 9 nights out of ten they show up to work. Sure we've seen a drop off in a few off the games recently but its not hard for me to remember teams since 2012 who would take weeks off at a time. 

 

I like what I'm seeing. The team is learning how to play, handle an NHL schedule, and it's all happening while our blue chip prospects are still developing. The level of frustration expressed here, IMO, can most likely be chalked up to unreasonable expectations considering where the team is in its lifecycle. 

Couldn't agree with you more.  These guys are pros, but Saturday night was three games in five nights and the last game of a long road trip.  And Sutter was playing his second game after a long lay off.  Call it excuses or a rationalization for the team's weak performance, but I believe the boys are deserving of a pass.  And this is all part of the learning process.

 

It should also be noted that the Canucks are a bottom five team in the Western Conference standings from a winning pct. perspective.  So, a young, tired team on a long road trip ranked 11th in the Western Conference laying an egg against arguably a top five team in the league shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone. 

 

Good thing is, this is a talented and hard-working team on most nights with a bright future.  It's a good time to be a Canucks fan.

[mll]

2 hours ago, EdgarM said:

I agree with Pickly in that I am seeing this inconsistency as well. I have not seen Virt lay out a bone wrenching body check for many games now as with Gudbranson or Edler. I have not seen any kind of consistent "get up and go" every shift with the exception of maybe EP and Motte and Biega when he is in the line up.

Maybe some are not as bad as Goldy trying to lay a body check or Pouliot trying to stop a guy entering the D zone but it has widdled down since the beginning of the season.

I am seeing "Sedin like" forechecking and back checking and I am not liking it. I seen Bo let his check go(AM) which resulting in a goal and that is not like him.

Actually it seems to have changed around  when Baertchi and Sutter returned , coincidence? or not?

 

Horvat played 24 minutes in back to back Ottowa and Montreal - he has played really a lot of minutes and it's probably catching up to him.  

 

The other difficulty for Horvat is that his linemates are a revolving door.  Even after  winning games he gets new linemates.  They win 5-1 vs Philadelphia and he is playing with Goldobin-Virtanen but the next game against Edmonton he gets Roussel-Eriksson.  There's no consistency.  It's not only just game by game but shift by shift.  He's double-shifting and playing one shift with Goldobin and the next with Roussel is not the same.  

 

Pettersson at least has been playing with Boeser although on their other wing it changes quite a bit.  Goldobin had been taken off that line for Leivo and was getting back on it. Leivo had been removed after he stopped producing.  Roussel, Eriksson, Virtanen were getting shifts.  Goldobin's ice time dropped to 9-12 minutes before the Christmas break. Same for Gaudette who had a few games at 6-7min.  

 

In December a few guys weren't bring it consistently and against weaker teams it's less of an issue.  Now the top players are more tired and, after games the different teams are now talking about how things are tightening up - it's the final run to get into the playoffs.  Beagle was talking about how it's only going to make them stronger - they certainly prefer them in the lineup than not.  Green wouldn't be playing them if he thought otherwise.

Canucks faced several weak/injured teams in December.   Edmonton, StLouis, Philadelphia are not playoff teams and seem to be in free fall.  Nashville lost most of their games in December with all their injuries - including 7 in a row.  Same for Minnesota who lost 11 and 7 in a row.  Calgary, Toronto and Montreal are playoff teams.  Montreal media is hopeful because Price is looking to be his old self since the return of Weber.  Toronto is one of the fastest teams in the league - not just skating but the speed at which they process the game.  It's not quite the same competition as the ones they faced in December and the schedule is really doing them no favours - a day to go cross-continent for a morning game and 3 in 4 days.

 

[Samgagner'sface]

Out scored 9-0 since petey went down. Wonder how many hart votes he gets?

[*Buzzsaw*]

15 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

Exactly, me too.  Wish him well...just don't know that there's a fit for him as we shift toward others.  He's served us well and I thank him for that, but when he was injured it gave us a chance to start moving in other directions.  I'm a big Gaudette supporter and like his hustle.

Except that Gaudette is not scoring... 2 goals and 4 assists in 31 games... and showed no signs that would change.

 

Considering how well he was scoring in the NCAA, that tells you he needs his confidence built up by getting more offensive opportunities and PP time.  So it makes sense for him to be in the AHL right now... and he is starting well there, with 3 points in his last game.

 

On the other hand Sutter has shown he is a reliable goal and point producer when he is not injured.  Of course, it likely will take him some time to get the rust off, but considering the team does need secondary scoring, it makes sense to keep him playing now.  Maybe if the right deal is available at the deadline, he can be dealt.  By that time, Gaudette may have tuned up his scoring prowess and raring to go.

 

No question Gaudette is the future.

[*Buzzsaw*]

From the comments on this thread you'd have to conclude if a psychiatrist was assigned to monitor the CDC forums, he'd label half the posters as Bipolar.

 

Relax people, its a rebuild year.

 

And lets remember the team is just finishing up the worst schedule of any team in the league... to add to the fact we have the longest travel times, they give us the most games and the most road games in the first half of the year.  Conspiracy theorists... you don't have to be paranoid to understand this team is getting the shaft.

 

So we are just finishing up this schedule from hell, and on top of that, half the key players have been injured at one time or another... to the point we haven't have full 'elite' roster for any more than 1/3 of the season. 

 

Which has meant it all has fallen on Bo's shoulders... and while we all know he is a Bull/Ox, its still gonna burn him out.

 

Plus we have been hit with the downer of having our best player go out for the second time... the team's quarterback.

 

What this team needs is sleep and recuperation... and what this board needs is to take a walk on the beach or the park and just forget about hockey for a little while.

 

The good news is the lines on the graph are trending up and the team is getting better.

[Wolfgang Durst]

On 1/6/2019 at 9:40 AM, JamesB said:

 

 

Coming in with some late comments, phrased as "things to remember".

 

1. As Roger reminds us, this is just one bad game. Obviously this game is one of the low points of the season but there will be high points as well. And one game is a small sample.

 

2. Coming at the end of another long road trip, including 3 games in 4 nights, it is not a big surprise that the team was flat.

 

3. Despite points 1 and 2, however, this game did remind us of some harsh realities. Most obviously, as Kassian says, the talent level on the team is a ways from being able to contend against the top teams in the league. With EP out, the Canucks have nowhere near the firepower Toronto has. And even with EP in, it is not close. (Toronto may have cap problems soon.but I have been impressed with Dubas and Gilman, who the Canucks never should have fired)

 

4. As bad alice says, one player makes a big difference. Take EP out of the Canuck line-up it it has a completely different look. With EP we have a good first line, without him we don't have a legitimate first line. Even if we put Bo, Baer, and Boeser together, that is still well below average for an NHL first line. And not much is left over for a second line. But with EP between Baer and Boeser, we have a good first line and Horvat can be the basis of a good second line. And the bottom 6 is pretty good as a bottom 6.

 

5. The same is true on defence: one elite player makes a big difference.. Add a number 1 guy to the depth chart on D and, instead of being overmatched at pretty much every spot, the team would be good at every spot. Hutton and Guddy are overmatched as a second pairing, but would be fine as a third pairing. Obviously we hope Hughes is that #1 guy and that maybe Woo can slot into the top 4 on the right side.

 

6. Elite players are the key. Looking at most of the moves Benning has made  reflected in tonight's lineup -- trading for Sutter, Guddy, Granlund, Baertschi and Pouliot, drafting Virtanen, getting Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel, and Shaller as UFAs, getting Stecher as an undrafted FA  -- none of those moves actually move the dial very much. I am not saying they were all bad moves. In fact, some were good moves, like getting Stecher and Roussel. But, after all the pages of argument on CDC about each of those moves, they don't make all that much difference. Is Sutter materially better than Bonino? I doubt it, but he isn't materially worse either. 

 

The only two moves that really moved the dial are drafting  Boeser and Pettersson. And I would put re-signing Horvat at a very good value on the list as well. Those are the three guys who have moved the team from being a bottom feeder to being at least in the conversation for a playoff spot.. If Hughes becomes another elite player, that would make a huge difference.And Gaudette and/or Woo could still turn out to be very valuable.

 

And Gaudette did have a great night tonight in Utica.. 

 

 

That's exacly why the Canucks mission is to build through the draft.

Besides that, congrats for one of the best posts I have ever read on CDC, because it makes it very clear to everbody where the Canucks are at in the rebuild.

On the positives I would like to add the drafting of Demko.

[-DLC-]

6 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Except that Gaudette is not scoring... 2 goals and 4 assists in 31 games... and showed no signs that would change.

 

Considering how well he was scoring in the NCAA, that tells you he needs his confidence built up by getting more offensive opportunities and PP time.  So it makes sense for him to be in the AHL right now... and he is starting well there, with 3 points in his last game.

 

On the other hand Sutter has shown he is a reliable goal and point producer when he is not injured.  Of course, it likely will take him some time to get the rust off, but considering the team does need secondary scoring, it makes sense to keep him playing now.  Maybe if the right deal is available at the deadline, he can be dealt.  By that time, Gaudette may have tuned up his scoring prowess and raring to go.

 

No question Gaudette is the future.

The thing is....both "need time" and I'd rather invest that time on Gaudette,  who is part of the future plan and allow him to continue to familiarize himself with this team/game rather than shelter him from it.  But you do make good points.

['NucK™]

17 hours ago, oldnews said:

No, it is the prototypical noob stat.

 

And this game the perfect exanple of how misleading it can be, particularly out of context (shutdown players almost always have unflattering +/-) - and in small samples.

Take Gudbranson for example - on a regular night for Markstrom, three of those goals are somewhat routine saves.  On one of them Hutton with a pretty bad turnover down low.  On another, Pouliot is cautious/hesitant against the rush, gets beaten wide = literally nothing to do with Gudbranson.   But ermagerd, Gud was -5 =  is he ever awfulzzz!   It's an on-ice / team statistic that is worthless out of context and in small samples, period.

Right I guess it's just a coincidence then that all the league's top players have a good +/-

[EdgarM]

13 hours ago, bigbadcanucks said:

Couldn't agree with you more.  These guys are pros, but Saturday night was three games in five nights and the last game of a long road trip.  And Sutter was playing his second game after a long lay off.  Call it excuses or a rationalization for the team's weak performance, but I believe the boys are deserving of a pass.  And this is all part of the learning process.

 

It should also be noted that the Canucks are a bottom five team in the Western Conference standings from a winning pct. perspective.  So, a young, tired team on a long road trip ranked 11th in the Western Conference laying an egg against arguably a top five team in the league shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone. 

 

Good thing is, this is a talented and hard-working team on most nights with a bright future.  It's a good time to be a Canucks fan.

 

11 hours ago, mll said:

 

Horvat played 24 minutes in back to back Ottowa and Montreal - he has played really a lot of minutes and it's probably catching up to him.  

 

The other difficulty for Horvat is that his linemates are a revolving door.  Even after  winning games he gets new linemates.  They win 5-1 vs Philadelphia and he is playing with Goldobin-Virtanen but the next game against Edmonton he gets Roussel-Eriksson.  There's no consistency.  It's not only just game by game but shift by shift.  He's double-shifting and playing one shift with Goldobin and the next with Roussel is not the same.  

 

Pettersson at least has been playing with Boeser although on their other wing it changes quite a bit.  Goldobin had been taken off that line for Leivo and was getting back on it. Leivo had been removed after he stopped producing.  Roussel, Eriksson, Virtanen were getting shifts.  Goldobin's ice time dropped to 9-12 minutes before the Christmas break. Same for Gaudette who had a few games at 6-7min.  

 

In December a few guys weren't bring it consistently and against weaker teams it's less of an issue.  Now the top players are more tired and, after games the different teams are now talking about how things are tightening up - it's the final run to get into the playoffs.  Beagle was talking about how it's only going to make them stronger - they certainly prefer them in the lineup than not.  Green wouldn't be playing them if he thought otherwise.

Canucks faced several weak/injured teams in December.   Edmonton, StLouis, Philadelphia are not playoff teams and seem to be in free fall.  Nashville lost most of their games in December with all their injuries - including 7 in a row.  Same for Minnesota who lost 11 and 7 in a row.  Calgary, Toronto and Montreal are playoff teams.  Montreal media is hopeful because Price is looking to be his old self since the return of Weber.  Toronto is one of the fastest teams in the league - not just skating but the speed at which they process the game.  It's not quite the same competition as the ones they faced in December and the schedule is really doing them no favours - a day to go cross-continent for a morning game and 3 in 4 days.

 

 

11 hours ago, Samgagner'sface said:

Out scored 9-0 since petey went down. Wonder how many hart votes he gets?

 

8 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

From the comments on this thread you'd have to conclude if a psychiatrist was assigned to monitor the CDC forums, he'd label half the posters as Bipolar.

 

Relax people, its a rebuild year.

 

And lets remember the team is just finishing up the worst schedule of any team in the league... to add to the fact we have the longest travel times, they give us the most games and the most road games in the first half of the year.  Conspiracy theorists... you don't have to be paranoid to understand this team is getting the shaft.

 

So we are just finishing up this schedule from hell, and on top of that, half the key players have been injured at one time or another... to the point we haven't have full 'elite' roster for any more than 1/3 of the season. 

 

Which has meant it all has fallen on Bo's shoulders... and while we all know he is a Bull/Ox, its still gonna burn him out.

 

Plus we have been hit with the downer of having our best player go out for the second time... the team's quarterback.

 

What this team needs is sleep and recuperation... and what this board needs is to take a walk on the beach or the park and just forget about hockey for a little while.

 

The good news is the lines on the graph are trending up and the team is getting better.

The funny thing is, even though numerous CDCer's are providing EXCUSES for all the reasons some of the players have "taken their foot off the gas", Petey continues on doing his business and is LEADING this team to victory most nights, inspiring them to play hard no matter what. 

Ok so the team does not play a full 60 minutes every game, I get that, but to go a whole game with out any push back from pretty much the whole team is a bit inexcusable.

This boils down to character and this is something that needs to be worked on still. Not expecting miracles but I just want us to be progressing past what we have been watching for so many years regarding the effort on the ice "game in and game out". 

I would much rather see a Biega,Motte, Gaudette effort every night then watch an uninspired Goldobin, Pouliot, Schaller effort any day of the week.

[shad0w4life]

11 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

 

 

 

The funny thing is, even though numerous CDCer's are providing EXCUSES for all the reasons some of the players have "taken their foot off the gas", Petey continues on doing his business and is LEADING this team to victory most nights, inspiring them to play hard no matter what. 

Ok so the team does not play a full 60 minutes every game, I get that, but to go a whole game with out any push back from pretty much the whole team is a bit inexcusable.

This boils down to character and this is something that needs to be worked on still. Not expecting miracles but I just want us to be progressing past what we have been watching for so many years regarding the effort on the ice "game in and game out". 

I would much rather see a Biega,Motte, Gaudette effort every night then watch an uninspired Goldobin, Pouliot, Schaller effort any day of the week.

You left out JV, he's been a terrible panic mess as of late, getting PP, 6 on 5 opportunities and just making bone headed play after bone headed play, every single shot he's taken from the blue line has hit a shin pad and bounced out, then only a few of the golden chances he's had actually made it to the net.

 

No idea why he's getting a free pass for playing so bad, he hasn't done anything he's supposed to be one of our most talented forwards yet as I've pointed out, he only does well when his teammates prop him up.

[EdgarM]

6 minutes ago, shad0w4life said:

You left out JV, he's been a terrible panic mess as of late, getting PP, 6 on 5 opportunities and just making bone headed play after bone headed play, every single shot he's taken from the blue line has hit a shin pad and bounced out, then only a few of the golden chances he's had actually made it to the net.

 

No idea why he's getting a free pass for playing so bad, he hasn't done anything he's supposed to be one of our most talented forwards yet as I've pointed out, he only does well when his teammates prop him up.

What I have noticed with him is that he is learning the positional play and it appears the team is developing him similar to what they did with Bo. It looks like he is working on different aspects of his game and he started out with his defense and now I think they are transitioning now to his offense. It may look like he is not trying but I think its more he is learning new things which makes him look a little behind on the play. When he first started to play in the NHL, he looked totally lost out there. He somewhat appears to know where he is supposed to be most nights now and I think it will look better once he knows this part of his game better.

The main thing is that he is showing improvement and has not grown stagnant like a Pouliot or a Goldobin.

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

19 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Now that this ugly loss is behind the team, I'm very interested to see how they respond next game against Arizona. There are a few players who will probably be wanting to put out a better showing than the dreck on display in Toronto. 

 

Gudbranson and Hutton will hopefully put in some work to shore up their deficiencies. 

 

As well, the game after should be interesting as it'll be the first game against Florida. Will Matheson be made to retroactively pay for the assault on Petterson? I certainly hope so. 

The long break between last game and the next should give the team much needed rest, and the team will respond with a better effort.  Maybe we even get to see Demko vs Arizona or Florida.

[189lb enforcers?]

27 minutes ago, shad0w4life said:

You left out JV, he's been a terrible panic mess as of late, getting PP, 6 on 5 opportunities and just making bone headed play after bone headed play, every single shot he's taken from the blue line has hit a shin pad and bounced out, then only a few of the golden chances he's had actually made it to the net.

 

No idea why he's getting a free pass for playing so bad, he hasn't done anything he's supposed to be one of our most talented forwards yet as I've pointed out, he only does well when his teammates prop him up.

I know it’s unpopular to say here, but JV is not a heady/cerebral player, never was. 

 

Also, I think he’s close to reaching his ceiling, a decent 2b forward, but without either the defensive acumen to be a dominant role player as a checker, or the desire to impose his will and separate/obliterate Dmen from the puck. 

 

I don’t mind giving all the kids a free pass this year so they can develop without being forced into ill-suited roles, as we’ve seen in the past. They paid Mr Balls et al very well to insulate the kids. I hope it continues to be so and that the kids get the gravy, not the vets who are playing out the back-9’s of their careers here. 

 

I agree with you concerning JV making bonehead plays as a norm. I watched him do it in Junior and the WJHC, now here. I see Goldy do the same. I don’t mind, let them. It helps the kids find their game and helps the Accidental Tank Plan. Win-win, for the future. 

[PhillipBlunt]

20 hours ago, Pickly said:

Personally, I’m not holding my breath. 

 

20 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

Me either.  And I don't even know that I like going back in time to "settle things".  It goes sideways quickly.

 

I wish we'd just play teams really hard to send a message.  I know it's physically exhausting to do so, but when Edler stands someone up at the blueline, it has an impact.  When Jake smashes someone into the boards...

 

In real time, I'm all for swarming a player who's taken out one of your best.  Going at him all night so he doesn't get to just slither away.  When the game ends, it's kind of done for me.  That was the window of opportunity.

 

I'm not thinking that Matheson should be fought, merely given a few solid (and painful) hits that might somewhat alter his skeletal structure, ever so slightly.

 

Goading him into a fight would be pretty counterproductive at this point.

[EdgarM]

38 minutes ago, AlwaysACanuckFan said:

The long break between last game and the next should give the team much needed rest, and the team will respond with a better effort.  Maybe we even get to see Demko vs Arizona or Florida.

I see these next 2 games as a tell tale sign of where we are in development. Have they just been playing tired lately and that's the reasoning for the lack luster play lately? AND will there be a "response" to Matheson's Body Slam on Petey in the Florida game? Can't wait to see what kind of character and heart this team really has.