-Vintage Canuck- Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I'm sure this week off is perfectly timed for EP. Rest then reassess. I'd rather see him out for a practice than in prematurely. Hard lesson to find out after the fact that he wasn't ready. Precautionary is good...no need to push it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said: The forward line shuffle looks good. I was hoping that Green would shuffle the defense though. Might be time to put Edler with Gudbranson and Tanev with Hutton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: The forward line shuffle looks good. I was hoping that Green would shuffle the defense though. Might be time to put Edler with Gudbranson and Tanev with Hutton. Yeah I don't see the Guddy/Hutton tandem doing very well lately. I don't like splitting up Tanev and Edler but I also don't like what our defense looks like when they are both on the bench either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 19 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said: Stretch and EP have great plus minus stats while those around them don’t. Can you explain that as it relates to the Canucks? My take on that would be: Let's start with EP......First of all, 67.2% ozone starts. Period. He's utilized as a specialized ozone start player - like the Sedins were - in order to maximize his production, as clearly the most lethal/dangerous scoring threat this team has. Additionally there's the counterpoint - to avoid having him face inopportune/tough matchups whereever possible - as both a young and undersized center - to 'shelter him' to some extent, particularly from a lot of down low battling in his own zone whereever avoidable. Other factors though - asided from tailoring his minutes - he's actually a very intelligent defensive forward - his ability to read and anticipate plays, particularly in open ice, will serve his ability to counterpunching /score in transition - we've already seen some prominent events in this respect this year (ie that game-winning assist off the stick of Dion Phaneuf). Pettersson also tends to draw the more productive two-way D pairing(s) to complement him - and the team has literally been built to enable him and his wingers - from Sutter and Beagle to Horvat, there are three capable defensive centers in the lineup - a build designed to provide young players like EP, Boeser (Goldobin) conditions that enable/maximize their ability to produce. A third factor - he finishes at an astonishing rate. Period again. His corsi (with those 67.2% ozone starts) is just over 50% at 50.9 - so despite the tilted ice, his line is relatively giving up territory and shots - but EP crushes it with a 27.8% shooting percentage (!) - and Brock is no slouch either at 14%. They convert at an 'elite' level - and, tending to face opposition shutdown units, their opponents tend not to. Stecher - likewise in addition to being a solid, hard working, intelligent young defenseman - comes in behind a pair of shutdown RHD like Tanev and Gudbranson. While his ozone starts aren't quite as high (at 52.8% - would likely be higher had it not been for absences of, injuries to Tanev/Edler), he generally does not have to face the quality of competition those other two pairings do (and conversely, +/- of guys like Gud and Hutton are inflated and misleading, particularly when they had to step up to principal shutdown unit). Stecher is under-rated imo - mobile and quick-minded, you can see how adept he is both with his first pass, and his defensive reads - makes consistent, solid decisions and gets into the heart of plays quickly. Like with EP, his situational use helps enable good goal (metrics) results, but he also takes advantage of those minutes imo (worth noting that an undersized defenseman has a +10 turnover differential - 19 takeaways, 9 giveaways - Virtanen +15, Motte +12 and Granlund +14 are the only players on the team who exceed Stecher, and they're all defensive/two-way forwards). I also think that despite the "Pooalot" whipping boy obsession on these boards, DP (despite his puck-moving mistakes under pressure, principally down low behind his own net) actually moves and drives play subtley, as does Stecher, and despite their being undersized as a pair, they are both mobile, reasonably aggressive in general, they are both capable in coverage, they can both move the puck....maybe an unconventional 'third pairing', but not exactly ineffective, particularly when they're coming in behind what are essentially a couple shutdown pairings (with Edler, and sometimes Hutton, drawing 'two-way' duty). EP and Stecher - both solid players - and in situations to succeed. A more nutshell answer would be - you don't judge players like Manny Malhotra negatively on plus/minus. And conversely, you don't judge the Sedins positively on their corsi or their +/-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rychicken Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 22 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said: I think Virtanen would play well with those linemates - I think he does a bit better when he is the most offensively gifted person on his line - makes the game simpler for him. When he plays with more talented players the game get's too complicated for him to process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bree2 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 why Pouliot? does Green want us to lose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, rychicken said: I think Virtanen would play well with those linemates - I think he does a bit better when he is the most offensively gifted person on his line - makes the game simpler for him. When he plays with more talented players the game get's too complicated for him to process. Ferraro has used a few times Baer vs Virtanen to illustrate high IQ vs lower IQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 hours ago, 'NucK™ said: Right I guess it's just a coincidence then that all the league's top players have a good +/- No, it's not a coincidence - and it's no 'coincidence' that the league's shutdown players have misleadingly high minuses. What you refer to as the league's 'top players' are scorers - who are utilized in situations to score (with coaches that jump at every opportunity to match them up against the oppositions weakest lines/pairings) - and when that's not the case, they generally outscore the opposition shutdown lines they face (who may be adept defensively but not expected to convert on their chances at a rate like the league's top scorers do). That's not a mystery - and it is to be expected. What is does not mean is that a minus player is necessarily a bad/poor/or weak player. To make that assumption is to not understand roles, situational use, and how statistics that are cherry-picked can be extremely misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannydog Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Green should park Pouliot for Biega. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Does anyone know what the Canucks records is without Pettersson in the lineup? He missed 7.5 games (let's round it up to 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 19 minutes ago, EdgarM said: Yeah I don't see the Guddy/Hutton tandem doing very well lately. I don't like splitting up Tanev and Edler but I also don't like what our defense looks like when they are both on the bench either. Putting Edler with Gudbranson, and Tanev with Hutton will help to shore up some of the second pairing's more glaring gaffes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'NucK™ Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 16 minutes ago, oldnews said: No, it's not a coincidence - and it's no 'coincidence' that the league's shutdown players have misleadingly high minuses. What you refer to as the league's 'top players' are scorers - who are utilized in situations to score (with coaches that jump at every opportunity to match them up against the oppositions weakest lines/pairings) - and when that's not the case, they generally outscore the opposition shutdown lines they face (who may be adept defensively but not expected to convert on their chances at a rate like the league's top scorers do). That's not a mystery - and it is to be expected. What is does not mean is that a minus player is necessarily a bad/poor/or weak player. To make that assumption is to not understand roles, situational use, and how statistics that are cherry-picked can be extremely misleading. Can't argue with you there but I'm not trying to say that +/- is a tell-all stat, while you are saying it's completely useless. And I was talking only about D men. If you look at the +/- list a lot of guys at the bottom are fringe NHL d-men. Yes there are some good d-men there but they play on teams that have -29 (Kings - Doughty), -36 (Sens - Ceci), -32 (Flyers - Ghost) goal differentials. Canucks are -15. You can argue all you want about the feasibility of the +/- stat, but the bottom line is that Guddy and Hutton fall into the fringe NHL d-men category, not the top-4 d-men who are playing shutdown minutes on teams being majorly outscored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFerguson Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 18 hours ago, EdgarM said: I agree with Pickly in that I am seeing this inconsistency as well. I have not seen Virt lay out a bone wrenching body check for many games now as with Gudbranson or Edler. I have not seen any kind of consistent "get up and go" every shift with the exception of maybe EP and Motte and Biega when he is in the line up. Maybe some are not as bad as Goldy trying to lay a body check or Pouliot trying to stop a guy entering the D zone but it has widdled down since the beginning of the season. I am seeing "Sedin like" forechecking and back checking and I am not liking it. I seen Bo let his check go(AM) which resulting in a goal and that is not like him. Actually it seems to have changed around when Baertchi and Sutter returned , coincidence? or not? Fair points. To the Baertschi/Sutter return comment: To me, it appears the boys let off the gas a bit once everyone got back healthy. Before that they were all (basically) working at or near capacity almost every shift because they knew they'd be blown out otherwise. I think they've let off the gas thinking the other guys would carry some of that load. But this team just isn't built for anyone to take nights off and still win. My assumption is that they realize it now or will after a couple more losses and will then get back to working their asses off the rest of the season. Let's be real, even with Beagle, Sutter, Baertschi in the lineup, that's really the only hope they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, AllWeatherFan said: Fair points. To the Baertschi/Sutter return comment: To me, it appears the boys let off the gas a bit once everyone got back healthy. Before that they were all (basically) working at or near capacity almost every shift because they knew they'd be blown out otherwise. I think they've let off the gas thinking the other guys would carry some of that load. But this team just isn't built for anyone to take nights off and still win. My assumption is that they realize it now or will after a couple more losses and will then get back to working their asses off the rest of the season. Let's be real, even with Beagle, Sutter, Baertschi in the lineup, that's really the only hope they have. Its this kind of thinking that I am hoping is going to change with this new core. Same with the not getting with the "wolf pack" mentality which is another characteristic from years past that I am hoping would disappear. Bo has been a "beast" for a long time now but I am seeing even him appear to be taking the foot off the gas. As I said before, I am hoping its just them being a little tired and we should see the level bump back up after this bit of a break they are getting. We shall see. If not, I am afraid its something the "old core" has rubbed off on guys like Bo and I am glad Petey had no part of that and he has shown that in his very short time in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFerguson Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 5 hours ago, 'NucK™ said: Right I guess it's just a coincidence then that all the league's top players have a good +/- If by "top" players you mean point producers, it's worth noting that the elite offensive talents in the league also get ice time that's HEAVILY weighted toward playing in the offensive zone (faceoffs). There are plenty of good players in the league whose play cannot be assessed by +/- because they are utilized in shut down roles. That said Guddy deserves his current +/- IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 So, Goldy has only scored once in the last 18 games or something. That's averaging around 5-6 goals a year. Well, I hope he makes it to 10 this year, anyway. Maybe he's a late bloomer? Got to say, even though Demko hasn't played a minute of NHL hockey this year, I still feel more confident with the goalie situation now. It's a step in the right direction. Really hoping Dahlen can take another step and possibly join the team in a couple of months for some games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 PRACTICE | Travis Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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