Utica prospects graduation to big club?

[EP Phone Home]

Alright first of all I never make topics because I feel like most of the threads are over saturated with similar topics. However that said, after hearing the interview on Palmu on 650 yesterday on my commute to work and I heard how disappointing it was that he really didn’t get any direction or leadership from Ryan Johnson or Trent Cull. “Nobody talked to me” was one of the quotes he said. Then hours later Ryan Johnson was on the same station doing a bit of lip service on the whole development of the AHL and kids they have down there. So it dawned on me and really made me think, who besides Thatcher Demko have the Utica Comets developed from our drafting? 

 

When we got Markstrom he was pretty much NHL ready (so you could say he was developed by Florida) 

 

 

Bartschi was down for the Utica playoff push after we acquired him so not much time after he joined the big club.

 

You could say Gaunce has somewhat developed but then again he’s back in Utica trying to get himself back up here.

 

Cole Cassels unfortunately didn’t work out even though he had high promise out of junior.

 

Jordan Subban had good years in the A but never got the chance up here.

 

Jake Virtanen had one year in Utica but he had one year in the NHL before and he had the tools to play in the NHL just needed a moral kick in the a$$ to wake his attitude up. So again short track was needed.

 

Goldy had about a season and a half in Utica before waivers forced the Canucks to keep him up or lose him for nothing.

 

 

Bo, Boeser, Petterson all didn’t need to go to Utica (Bo had one conditioning stint with Utica after an injury) but they all jumped to the NHL. You could say that Gaudette played mostly in College with his development and had a cup of coffee in Utica and is back with the big club. The same can be said about Hutton who had 4 games in Utica before he became a mainstay on our blueline.

 

Some could argue that OJ was about to get a callup for his point production and play in Utica before he got hurt for the rest of the year. 

 

The only players that I see so far from his development down in Utica that will graduate to the big club would be Guillaume Brisebois and Zack MacEwen. 

 

I love our scouting and our drafting record the last 4-5 years and I think that we have some good potential with kids like Dahlen, Lind, Gadget and Palmu but how can Utica be renowned for its development when it’s so hard to find players who have made the next step up to the NHL? So if I’m being out there with my assessment of our farm team development let me know if I’m forgetting any prospects that have graduated to the big club from the farm. 

 

Also I know it’s Trent Culls job to win games in Utica but for Ryan Johnson to preach development on the radio and then when I look at the box scores of Utica games I am confused by the words the Utica GM is speaking when the kids aren’t playing over AHL contract vets who don’t have NHL aspirations like our draft picks do. I wonder if Benning and Ryan Johnson are on the same page when it comes to what’s best for our prospects in the “development league” AHL. Or will we see our other players go to different teams/leagues like Dahlin and Palmu did last year before they came to Utica.Because it sounds like they don’t get a fair shake down on the farm compared to how they are utilized on other clubs in other leagues. Look at the numbers that Palmu has put up since he left Utica! The kid isn’t a write off he’s a diamond in the rough for a 6th round pick and Cull isn’t developing him! Thanks for reading and please fill me with your thoughts and opinions because this topic really got me thinking.

 

[Western Red]

I'd like to mention Jasek, who looked good in Toronto tonight and seems like a guy who knows how to be successful, he's been through quite a bit already. Would love to see him get a call up this year.

 

It's fair to question what going on in Utica, but unfair to assume we truly know.

[6string]

Nice job, I would have Chatfield though injured as a strong candidate to take the next step.

 

A RH shot, skating fits today's NHL and elevates with hard nosed hockey. He's a gamer!

 

We need one or two of these guys ( Brisebois, McEneney, Chatfield or Sautner ) to fill the big club's roster in the near future.

[fanfor42]

The point of your post is that Utica has not performed well developing prospects for Vancouver.  Correct?

2013 the Canucks drafted Horvat.  At that time current Canuck management was not in charge and the Utica club did not yet exist. Utica became a team for the 13/14

So we are taking about what 5 years?

That's a very short time frame to assess development partner. Especially since it's their first 5 years. Let's give it some time.  

 

 

[EP Phone Home]

9 minutes ago, fanfor42 said:

The point of your post is that Utica has not performed well developing prospects for Vancouver.  Correct?

2013 the Canucks drafted Horvat.  At that time current Canuck management was not in charge and the Utica club did not yet exist. Utica became a team for the 13/14

So we are taking about what 5 years?

That's a very short time frame to assess development partner. Especially since it's their first 5 years. Let's give it some time.  

 

 

Perhaps I do need to preach more patience on the team, I just don’t like seeing how our two former 2nd rounders (Lind and Manchild) are being treated. But again they are in their first year of pros and you are correct to give them time for further development. I just recently saw that the Canucks have extended a deal to keep the team in Utica for the next 2-6 years. So I will keep my eyes on the farm for the next while and see if there are improvements.

I don’t want to knock RJ or TC on their job on the farm it’s just something I’ve recently noticed that outside of our surefire 1st rounders and aside from Demko that there hasn’t been a progression of players that make the jump up to the parent club. You are correct that everything takes a little bit of time. 

[6string]

12 minutes ago, fanfor42 said:

The point of your post is that Utica has not performed well developing prospects for Vancouver.  Correct?

2013 the Canucks drafted Horvat.  At that time current Canuck management was not in charge and the Utica club did not yet exist. Utica became a team for the 13/14

So we are taking about what 5 years?

That's a very short time frame to assess development partner. Especially since it's their first 5 years. Let's give it some time.  

 

 

I agree and don't forget Mike Gillis had no interest in the bigger picture leaving the farm with scraps, what a mess Benning and Linden had to begin with.

[Coconuts]

I dunno, imma play the patience card when it comes to the farm. We really haven't owned our own affiliate very long and we've been in an organizational rebuild the last few years. Not only that but our drafting has only really seemed to have improved the last few years as well with JB and co in charge, as we continue to acquire more quality prospects and deepen our pool we're likely to see more dividends. It's also important to remember that in we refer to these young players as prospects for a reason, every club has it's misses with higher round picks and every club is looking to develop young players well.

 

Vancouver and Utica are both a work in progress and of course Vancouver is going to take priority. Hell, we just called up Gaudette (who was playing very well after being sent down) from a Comets team that could definitely use him. I'd like to think that as our team improves at the NHL level it'll leave more talent down in the minors to push for the bigs. We've got some talented prospects in Utica but we seem to lack top end guys who can rip things up in the AHL. Having a guy or two who can rip it up down there but not quite make it as an NHL regular could be good for our prospects, gotta have talent for our talent to play with after all. Ideally we'd have an old pro around to show guys what it takes too, kinda like Mike Keane did with the Moose back in the day. I think a lot of people underestimate the AHL, realistically most junior and other minor league players aren't gonna step in and set the world on fire.

[RogersTowell]

I'd argue that Virtanen and Goldobin both benefited from time in Utica.  Demko has now earned his way up.  Gaudette, while capable of playing in the NHL benefits by having somewhere to pick up big minutes when sent down.  I agree that I'd like to see more from guys like Palmu and Gadjovich, but we just don't know what's happening well enough to gauge the situation.  Jasek seems to be adapting well and will hopefully get some NHL time.  Sautner is close.  Juolevi was benefiting from his time on the farm and seemed to be a matter of months away from moving up when he blew his knee.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

12 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 We've got some talented prospects in Utica but we seem to lack top end guys who can rip things up in the AHL. Having a guy or two who can rip it up down there but not quite make it as an NHL regular could be good for our prospects, gotta have talent for our talent to play with after all. Ideally we'd have an old pro around to show guys what it takes too, kinda like Mike Keane did with the Moose back in the day. I think a lot of people underestimate the AHL, realistically most junior and other minor league players aren't gonna step in and set the world on fire.

I think the last high profile “gun for hire” the team has signed was about a decade ago.  Jason Krog was a legit AHL allstar.  Too bad we only signed him for a season.  Course the Comets could’ve used the services of Gagner badly but that issue has been discussed to death...

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I think the last high profile “gun for hire” the team has signed was about a decade ago.  Jason Krog was a legit AHL allstar.  Too bad we only signed him for a season.  Course the Comets could’ve used the services of Gagner badly but that issue has been discussed to death...

Oh man, forgot all about Krog. But yeah, I'd have to agree.

 

I'd be happy if the Canucks used up a contract spot or two for the Comets, I'd love to see guys paving the way offensively for our prospects. I'd love to see our prospects do it themselves eventually but then we'd just graduate em. Ideally the farm is competitive too and not just a feeder source for when injuries hit.

[HerrDrFunk]

One factor to consider as well is that the Canucks’ prospects who’ve become regulars (or project to) have developed elsewhere than the AHL. The NCAA for Hughes, Hutton, Stetcher, Gaudette and Boeser, the SHL for Pettersson.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

Oh man, forgot all about Krog. But yeah, I'd have to agree.

 

I'd be happy if the Canucks used up a contract spot or two for the Comets, I'd love to see guys paving the way offensively for our prospects. I'd love to see our prospects do it themselves eventually but then we'd just graduate em. Ideally the farm is competitive too and not just a feeder source for when injuries hit.

Yeah obviously we don’t want too many roster spots taken up by these AHL vets but why not take advantage of our ownerships willingness to spend money and offer these guys just under a million (so they’ll have minimal cap implications) which is a lot more than you typical AHL salary.  Heck offer them a two way deal as an incentive (still no/little cap effects unless they get called up).  These guys can act like the guys Benning signed this past offseason for the parent club (vet mentors) like Roussel and Beagle.

[Coconuts]

5 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Yeah obviously we don’t want too many roster spots taken up by these AHL vets but why not take advantage of our ownerships willingness to spend money and offer these guys just under a million (so they’ll have minimal cap implications) which is a lot more than you typical AHL salary.  Heck offer them a two way deal as an incentive (still no/little cap effects unless they get called up).  These guys can act like the guys Benning signed this past offseason for the parent club (vet mentors) like Roussel and Beagle.

For sure, gotta take in the AHL's vet rules too. Can only dress so many per game if I remember correctly. But yeah, may as well take advantage of the Aqua's willingness to spend, I'd love to have competitive AHL and NHL rosters like Tampa does.

[Hairy Kneel]

I want to see more Utica games offered for Vancouver fans to see. 

Could the big club organize viewings so we can see the product?

Feels like next to no coverage of our cubs here.

[ilduce39]

12 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

One factor to consider as well is that the Canucks’ top prospects have been developing elsewhere other than the AHL. The NCAA for Hughes and Boeser, the SHL for Pettersson.

Yeah.. and in the AHL Juolevi, before injury, was getting the spotlight and putting up a good amount of points.

 

2nd round picks are no sure thing.. (let alone 6th rounders like Palmu).  They take time.  As much as incompetence in Utica would be a nice excuse for some of our newly minted pros taking their lumps... it’s just as likely that the company line is bang on and they just need time to adjust.

[HerrDrFunk]

4 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Yeah.. and in the AHL Juolevi, before injury, was getting the spotlight and putting up a good amount of points.

 

2nd round picks are no sure thing.. (let alone 6th rounders like Palmu).  They take time.  As much as incompetence in Utica would be a nice excuse for some of our newly minted pros taking their lumps... it’s just as likely that the company line is bang on and they just need time to adjust.

Excellent point. As much as it sucks to say, the simple reality is a lot of the guys who were drafted just simply won’t be regular NHL players. Or some will be, but not for the Canucks. 

[luckylager]

Utica seems to be okay at developing a player's 200ft game.

 

Other than that, I don't think we've really seen enough prospects go through the paces there to say much more.

 

As far as the rookies deployment in Utica goes, it's just like any other team. You gotta earn your minutes. JB wants internal competition, Lind and Manchild probably aren't getting the cherry minutes because they haven't earned them by scoring or checking effectively.

 

 

[JamesB]

2 hours ago, EP Phone Home said:

... So it dawned on me and really made me think, who besides Thatcher Demko have the Utica Comets developed from our drafting? 

...

...Also I know it’s Trent Culls job to win games in Utica but for Ryan Johnson to preach development on the radio and then when I look at the box scores of Utica games I am confused ...Look at the numbers that Palmu has put up since he left Utica! The kid isn’t a write off he’s a diamond in the rough for a 6th round pick and Cull isn’t developing him! ...

 

30 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I dunno, imma play the patience card  ...

 

26 minutes ago, RogersTowell said:

I'd argue that Virtanen and Goldobin both benefited from time in Utica.  Demko has now earned his way up.  Gaudette, while capable of playing in the NHL benefits by having somewhere to pick up big minutes when sent down.  I agree that I'd like to see more from guys like Palmu and Gadjovich, but we just don't know what's happening well enough to gauge the situation.  Jasek seems to be adapting well and will hopefully get some NHL time.  Sautner is close.  Juolevi was benefiting from his time on the farm and seemed to be a matter of months away from moving up when he blew his knee.

1. First, thanks to the OP for going through the Utica record on player development. Daniel Wagner had good (albeit critical) article on this point in PITB. (See https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/petrus-palmu-explains-reasons-why-he-left-utica-comets-nobody-really-talked-to-me-1.23585683)

 

2. Yes, I agree with Coconuts and others that five years is not a long time. But I would not call it "very short" either. At any given time a team has prospects of varying ages and we can legitimately ask the question -- even for just one year -- did the guy improve in Utica. Certainly after two or three years most prospects in their early 20s develop quite a lot and it is fair to ask the development is going.

 

3. So I think that RogersTowell is taking a reasonable approach. Let's assess that actual development of individual players. To do it carefully we could compare the Canuck/Utica record with that of other NHL teams and their AHL affiliates, but that would take a lot of work.

 

4. I think the Palmu situation is weird. Given standard league translation factors, after his performance in Finland last year and his performance after going back this year, he should have been a good AHL player. So why was he a healthy scratch so often and relegated to a few minutes game (on the 4th line) when he did play. And the claimed lack of communication is strange. I have been positive about Ryan Johnson as GM in Utica but my respect for him fell when his response was pretty much entirely content-free -- just a few conventional platitudes.

 

5. In addition to asking how much progress individual players have made in Utica, we can also ask if it has mattered in the sense of developing players who actually help the Canucks. I think it is worth looking at the current Canuck team to see who has benefited from time in Utica, even though it is still quite early.

 

i.) The three young stars: EP, Boeser, and Horvat have spent almost no time time Utica and certainly own none of their development to Utica. That is normal because a lot of A prospects go straight to the NHL from junior or from Europe. So it is not a criticism of Utica but obviously  it does not count as a plus either.

 

ii) The two goalies currently on the team both spent significant time in Utica, and I think Marky did improve his game while he was there, although Utica has had only a modest role in his development overall. As for Demko, he has played only one NHL game so far (last year) but we are about to get a lot more information about him when he plays a few games.

 

iii) The current top 7 Ds do not owe any of their development to Utica, Only Biega spent significant time there and, while he is a great guy to have as 8th man, he is only a replacement level player.

 

iv) As for "bottom nine" forwards currently on the team, Virtanen spent quite a bit of time in Utica and Goldy, Baertschi, and Gaudette spent some time but not much. That is about it.

 

 

6. I agree that it is too early at this stage to say that there is problem with Utica, But there aren't a lot of positives yet. And I think a lot of the output of development depends on the talent and character of the players themselves. Guys like Horvat, EP and Boeser were going to do well in any reasonable environment. Guys like Cassels and Subban were probably never going to be NHL players nomatter how good the development program was.

 

7. I think that by next year we should be able to make a much better assessment. This year the Canucks have a lot of pretty good prospects in Utica to add to the sample size of previous years:MacEwan, Lind, Gadjovich, Jasek, Dahlen, etc.  So I think that by next year Utica needs to show significant development progress for some of these guys or maybe Johson and Cull won't be so secure in their jobs.

 

 

 

[Pickly]

12 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Yeah.. and in the AHL Juolevi, before injury, was getting the spotlight and putting up a good amount of points.

 

2nd round picks are no sure thing.. (let alone 6th rounders like Palmu).  They take time.  As much as incompetence in Utica would be a nice excuse for some of our newly minted pros taking their lumps... it’s just as likely that the company line is bang on and they just need time to adjust.

I find Gadjovich and Lind’s lack of offensive production thus far concerning. 4 and 6 points respectively in 21 and 23 games is not what you’d expect for decently touted 2nd round picks. I know I could be jumping the gun here because they are only 20, first year pros, and aren’t getting ample opportunity down in Utica, but none the less it’s still extremely underwhelming. 

[luckylager]

23 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

I want to see more Utica games offered for Vancouver fans to see. 

Could the big club organize viewings so we can see the product?

Feels like next to no coverage of our cubs here.

Too bad SNet doesn't air them on some of their random pop-up channels. 

I guess Rogers would need to own the rink or pay for rights though...