PrinceGeorgeGoon Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 There have been a few players who either hit the deep pro water in Utica or your onto something here. Willie D put in 3 years in so if that's in anyway relatable, despite significant results after the first year easy to say there was little after. I imagine there is much attention to the Farm and a change is likely managed on a larger timeline. Even if Culls job was on the line 1) he gets a chance to prove his vision 2) when you fire someone, you need someone else to get the job done 3) tough to attract good talent into your system if your too fickle and reactionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Barzal Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 How do you expect players who are not even AHL calibre to find a home in the NHL. Yeesh, there's a reason they're called prospects. EDIT: Also, the AHL is not a development league. That myth needs to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 43 minutes ago, Mathew Barzal said: How do you expect players who are not even AHL calibre to find a home in the NHL. Yeesh, there's a reason they're called prospects. EDIT: Also, the AHL is not a development league. That myth needs to die. Not a development league huh? Let's look at Nashville. Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee Sissons 3 season Milwaukee Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee Even players they've traded for have lots of time in the minors. Some who have years playing in Europe getting ice time before they come to the NHL. But it's a myth..... It's just a pro league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 hours ago, EP Phone Home said: Alright first of all I never make topics because I feel like most of the threads are over saturated with similar topics. However that said, after hearing the interview on Palmu on 650 yesterday on my commute to work and I heard how disappointing it was that he really didn’t get any direction or leadership from Ryan Johnson or Trent Cull. “Nobody talked to me” was one of the quotes he said. Then hours later Ryan Johnson was on the same station doing a bit of lip service on the whole development of the AHL and kids they have down there. So it dawned on me and really made me think, who besides Thatcher Demko have the Utica Comets developed from our drafting? When we got Markstrom he was pretty much NHL ready (so you could say he was developed by Florida) Bartschi was down for the Utica playoff push after we acquired him so not much time after he joined the big club. You could say Gaunce has somewhat developed but then again he’s back in Utica trying to get himself back up here. Cole Cassels unfortunately didn’t work out even though he had high promise out of junior. Jordan Subban had good years in the A but never got the chance up here. Jake Virtanen had one year in Utica but he had one year in the NHL before and he had the tools to play in the NHL just needed a moral kick in the a$$ to wake his attitude up. So again short track was needed. Goldy had about a season and a half in Utica before waivers forced the Canucks to keep him up or lose him for nothing. Bo, Boeser, Petterson all didn’t need to go to Utica (Bo had one conditioning stint with Utica after an injury) but they all jumped to the NHL. You could say that Gaudette played mostly in College with his development and had a cup of coffee in Utica and is back with the big club. The same can be said about Hutton who had 4 games in Utica before he became a mainstay on our blueline. Some could argue that OJ was about to get a callup for his point production and play in Utica before he got hurt for the rest of the year. The only players that I see so far from his development down in Utica that will graduate to the big club would be Guillaume Brisebois and Zack MacEwen. I love our scouting and our drafting record the last 4-5 years and I think that we have some good potential with kids like Dahlen, Lind, Gadget and Palmu but how can Utica be renowned for its development when it’s so hard to find players who have made the next step up to the NHL? So if I’m being out there with my assessment of our farm team development let me know if I’m forgetting any prospects that have graduated to the big club from the farm. Also I know it’s Trent Culls job to win games in Utica but for Ryan Johnson to preach development on the radio and then when I look at the box scores of Utica games I am confused by the words the Utica GM is speaking when the kids aren’t playing over AHL contract vets who don’t have NHL aspirations like our draft picks do. I wonder if Benning and Ryan Johnson are on the same page when it comes to what’s best for our prospects in the “development league” AHL. Or will we see our other players go to different teams/leagues like Dahlin and Palmu did last year before they came to Utica.Because it sounds like they don’t get a fair shake down on the farm compared to how they are utilized on other clubs in other leagues. Look at the numbers that Palmu has put up since he left Utica! The kid isn’t a write off he’s a diamond in the rough for a 6th round pick and Cull isn’t developing him! Thanks for reading and please fill me with your thoughts and opinions because this topic really got me thinking. I like what you're attempting here but before I read your dissertation, not all of your facts are correct. Google is your friend. Markstrom was acquired in Mar 4, 2014 as part of the Luongo trade. He played 4 games with the Canucks that year and did not fare well. The next season, Marky went to Utica and Lack was back up to Miller. Markstrom played 32 regular season games with the Comets in 2015-16 with a 0.934 save % but his 3 games with the Canucks were again poor. He went on to play 23 playoff games with the Comets in their Calder run. This led to Benning choosing Markstrom over Lack as Millers back up for the 2016-17 season. So, Markstrom was developed in Utica under Travis Green. Virtanen, Travis Green spent hours with Jake showing him film of his play and brought him along slowly for most of a season (65 games) in Utica. So he was developed largely in the AHL Goldobin was acquired in Mar 1, 2017 from the Sharks and finished the season with 3 games in Utica and 12 games with the Canucks to mixed results. In 2017-18 he started with the Comets, playing 30 games and put up 31 points. He also played 38 games with the Canucks again, with mixed results. This season, he has been subject to waivers and has not been sent down to Utica so further development has been made with the Canucks and he could still be viewed as a work in progress. How players are treated in Utica is supposed to be the same as they are treated in Vancouver. That is, players have to earn their ice time. There is also a fair bit of internal competition for the ice time. It appears as though players like Lind, Gadjovich and Plamu have a lot to learn and development to be done. I think that if they aren't getting the time that they require, maybe they should be in a lesser league. Palmu has gone back to Finland. Lind, I think has been injured a lot. Gadjovich could go back to junior as a 20 year old if there is space for him but as Ferraro said today, sometimes big power forwards can bully their way past their deficiencies in junior just because they are big and strong (6'2" 209) so you have to wonder how beneficial a move like that would be anyways. His skating is the issue and you could argue that he has to get used to the speed of the pro game. This deficiency is probably why he fell to 55th pick in the '17 draft when he scored 46 goals. Maybe the ECHL is the place for him but the Canucks would have less control over his development there. So, on closer examination, I'm not sure there really are a lot of differences between how players are being developed with the Canucks v Comets and I don't see any indication that their methods are unsuccessful. Dahlen is reportedly progressing well as was Juolevi until his injury. Jasek, MacEwen, Briesbois, Chatfield and Sautner are all coming along fine. I'm not worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Buzzsaw* Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Utica prospects are being developed. Thatcher Demko just got called up to the big leagues... probably for good... after two seasons with Utica. Dahlen is coming along quite nicely as a rookie, putting up some points while he learns to backcheck. Zack MacEwen is also developing over last year showing better scoring and defense. Adam Gaudette is learning to score against professional goalies after he couldn't get over that hump in Vancouver. Ashton Sautner is a solid AHL D who could be called up if necessary. Brendan Gaunce is Brendan Gaunce... he is an capable defensive minded NHL 4th liner who can play on the Canucks if injuries require it. Petrus Palmu was loaned to a Liiga team because he will likely develop better closer to home. He'll be back in Utica next year or at the end of the Liiga season. The two disappointments for me are Jonah Gadjovich and Kole Lind so far... but they are rookies and it does take time for a OHL player to jump to pro. The fact they are not playing a lot of games tells me the coaches down there are working on their conditioning and skating... and if that can be improved, then they will do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Florida did not develop Marky. We had to rebuild Marky. And you criminally underrate how important that season in Utica was for Jake Virtanen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 7 hours ago, Mathew Barzal said: How do you expect players who are not even AHL calibre to find a home in the NHL. Yeesh, there's a reason they're called prospects. EDIT: Also, the AHL is not a development league. That myth needs to die. The AHL calls themselves a developmental league. That's why they've implemented the veteran rule. Teams have to dress at least 12 players with less than 260 pro games. Today Virtanen has 262 pro-games. Goldobin has 310. They count at the start of the season though - Goldobin would have been considered a veteran this season but not Virtanen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where'd Luongo? Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 10 hours ago, 6string said: I agree and don't forget Mike Gillis had no interest in the bigger picture leaving the farm with scraps, what a mess Benning and Linden had to begin with. How long are you gonna play this card? How long has Benning been here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Neither Hutton or Stecher had more than a cup of coffee in the AHL. IMHO this is a high risk option for the long term development of these players. It nearly finished Hutton. He seems to have recovered. Stecher is learning his game at the NHL level. I wince some nights but it is what it is. Both of them were NCAA developed which is different from CHL prospects playing in Utica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceGeorgeGoon Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Interestingly there is a draft data analysis article from the athletic this a.m with Judd brackett where he touches on some of the issues discussed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceGeorgeGoon Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Furthermore the guys doing "development" get a say in who they draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deets Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 The Canucks really need to purchase an AHL team to oversee the development process in the minors. The problem with Utica is they want to win, so they give more chances to veteran AHL players over developing younger players. This is why you often see some of our young prospects riding the pine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 10 hours ago, HerrDrFunk said: One factor to consider as well is that the Canucks’ prospects who’ve become regulars (or project to) have developed elsewhere than the AHL. The NCAA for Hughes, Hutton, Stetcher, Gaudette and Boeser, the SHL for Pettersson. Yeah this is a good point. This is the first time Utica has had multiple prospects that actually have potentially a strong NHL future. Virtanen, Saunter , McEneny, breezer, demko, MacEwan are all guys that stand out to me. Aside from Virtanen and demko though there hasn't been any high quality prospects. Virtanen (1st rounder) Gaunce (1st rounder) Demko (2nd rounder) Breezer (3rd rounder) Sautner (undrafted) MacEwan (undrafted) McEneny (undrafted) Chatfield (undrafted) Eliot (undrafted) I have to say our scouting staff + Jim Benning has done well finding these free agents. Right now we got Juolevi (1st) Lind (2nd) Dahlen (2nd) Gadjovich (2nd) Gaudette (5th) Jasek (6th) Palmu (6th) Please tell me if I'm missing anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if I am. My point being we have more prospects in the AHL now then we've had in the past. Most of whom have come in late last year or at the start of this year. In terms of prospect management now that maybe a good talking point. But what do I know about Utica and how to properly develop players. I got no idea personally. Maybe some of you have a better idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I didn't include markstrom, baercheese, or Goldie because their tenures are short. Gaudette is on a call up but we don't know if he will stick. Likely not, unless Sutter gets moved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, Deets said: The Canucks really need to purchase an AHL team to oversee the development process in the minors. The problem with Utica is they want to win, so they give more chances to veteran AHL players over developing younger players. This is why you often see some of our young prospects riding the pine. Development doesn't just mean lots of playing time; it means they have to learn how to earn playing time, and one way they can learn how to earn it is from veteran players, as well as learning how to win games, learning how to play your role, play as a team, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian_ Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 13 hours ago, fanfor42 said: The point of your post is that Utica has not performed well developing prospects for Vancouver. Correct? 2013 the Canucks drafted Horvat. At that time current Canuck management was not in charge and the Utica club did not yet exist. Utica became a team for the 13/14 So we are taking about what 5 years? That's a very short time frame to assess development partner. Especially since it's their first 5 years. Let's give it some time. The average hockey career is 5 years, so give a career length to see if they can make it? 13 hours ago, 6string said: I agree and don't forget Mike Gillis had no interest in the bigger picture leaving the farm with scraps, what a mess Benning and Linden had to begin with. Under Gillis the team had winning season's and went to the playoffs just about every year losing the championship twice. 10 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Not a development league huh? Let's look at Nashville. Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee Sissons 3 season Milwaukee Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee Even players they've traded for have lots of time in the minors. Some who have years playing in Europe getting ice time before they come to the NHL. But it's a myth..... It's just a pro league. Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee - 61 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee - 87 games - 4th rnd - #112 Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee - 121 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee - 47 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Sissons 3 season Milwaukee - 176 games - 2 nd rdn - #50 Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee - 2 season's only 121 games - 2nd rnd - #52 Most look like they were taken from there draft and directly into the farm, the Canucks leave the players on the teams for a year. Under Gillis numerous AHL players came up and some stuck. And yeah, blaming anything on Gillis now is such a stretch, hockey careers have started and ended since he was around. But under this administration Utica has become a graveyard for players. I see other players left because nobody talked to them, maybe they were homesick eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said: The average hockey career is 5 years, so give a career length to see if they can make it? Under Gillis the team had winning season's and went to the playoffs just about every year losing the championship twice. Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee - 61 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee - 87 games - 4th rnd - #112 Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee - 121 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee - 47 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Sissons 3 season Milwaukee - 176 games - 2 nd rdn - #50 Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee - 2 season's only 121 games - 2nd rnd - #52 Most look like they were taken from there draft and directly into the farm, the Canucks leave the players on the teams for a year. Under Gillis numerous AHL players came up and some stuck. And yeah, blaming anything on Gillis now is such a stretch, hockey careers have started and ended since he was around. But under this administration Utica has become a graveyard for players. I see other players left because nobody talked to them, maybe they were homesick eh? I agree. We need our farm team to be our farm team. Get our young guys enough minutes to show whether they project to be NHL players or not. If not, then trade them and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 14 hours ago, 6string said: I agree and don't forget Mike Gillis had no interest in the bigger picture leaving the farm with scraps, what a mess Benning and Linden had to begin with. Just to point out... Gillis' record with the Moose: 133-86-7 Gillis' record with the Wolves: 79-57-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 It appears the Comets have a similar approach as the big club in terms of balancing new prospects with more experienced players/vets, and not wanting to have a line-up of all super young guys and putting them over their heads. With such a rabid fanbase in Utica, they're also balancing wins-losses and icing a compeititive team. Also similar to the dynamics of the big club. I get it from a standpoint of replicating environments and creating a culture of earning your time. But I'm not sure how prepared the organization was to have such a backlog of prospects with specific development plans for individual players. We've got a good-bad problem with more prospects. I really think it's a major challenge to give all of our prospects exactly what they need to succeed. Especially with so many players vying for limited opportunities. We need to get better so prospects are getting fair shakes and guys aren't slipping through the cracks. Obviously some guys will learn and adjust to the systems quicker than others. And like others have pointed out, development isn't just about ice time. You've got to learn systems, roles, and make the most of your time. I was really rooting for Palmu. This kid could be a real gem despite his size. To a certain degree, I think Jasek's success limited Palmu's opportunity on the right side. I hope we get him back and give him a legitimate shot. Interestingly, Carcone and Archie are gone, leaving two more open spots on the right side. Too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said: The average hockey career is 5 years, so give a career length to see if they can make it? Under Gillis the team had winning season's and went to the playoffs just about every year losing the championship twice. Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee - 61 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee - 87 games - 4th rnd - #112 Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee - 121 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee - 47 games - 1rst rnd - #11 Sissons 3 season Milwaukee - 176 games - 2 nd rdn - #50 Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee - 2 season's only 121 games - 2nd rnd - #52 Most look like they were taken from there draft and directly into the farm, the Canucks leave the players on the teams for a year. Under Gillis numerous AHL players came up and some stuck. And yeah, blaming anything on Gillis now is such a stretch, hockey careers have started and ended since he was around. But under this administration Utica has become a graveyard for players. I see other players left because nobody talked to them, maybe they were homesick eh? Fiala, Ellis, Forsberg were high 1st rounders. Arvidsson was a 4 draft overager out of the SHL (eligible in 2011 already but drafted in 2014) - i.e. when drafted he had 3 years of pro-experience more than players from his draft class. The others have spent more time in the AHL. Salamoki missed most of the 2014/15 season with an injury. He only played 38 games that season. That's why he only has 121 games in the AHL over 3 seasons. He got promoted in his draft+5. Nashville have mostly promoted players taken past the 1st round once they became waiver eligible. GM Poile always says the road to Nashville goes through Milwaukee. This is when players got promoted definitely by Nashville. 1st rounders (top-15) Ellis draft+5 Fiala draft+4 Forsberg draft+3 Virtanen made the NHL in his draft+4. Goldobin spent part of last season in the AHL - this is his draft+5. Boeser made the team in his draft+3. Pettersson is in his draft+2. Watson was an 18th overall. He made the NHL in his draft+6 and was initially sent down through waivers in his draft+7 but got recalled a few weeks later. 2nd rounders and later Salomaki draft+5 Sissons draft+5 Arvidsson draft+3 but it was his draft eligibility +6 as he was already eligible in 2011 This is where the Canucks are vs their draft year Dahlen (2nd round) draft+3 Lind, Gadjovich (2nd round) draft+2 Palmu draft+2 but he was a 3 draft overager so for his draft class it's draft+4. He's a 6th round pick. Brisebois (3rd round) draft+4 Juolevi draft+3 but will lose this season to injury. Benning was hoping for him to play some games in the NHL this season. They wouldn't be promoted any quicker in Nashville. Sissons and Salomaki made Nashville in their draft+5 as 2nd rounders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.