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Utica prospects graduation to big club?

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14 hours ago, 6string said:

Utica Roster 2014/15. Benning's first year...

https://theahl.com/stats/roster/390/48

I'd love to hear your perspective, my perspective is that Benning has overhauled the entire team so nobody from this point on can say things like "Mike Gillis didn't give him anything" because it's ALL Benning from here on out. 

 

What's yours?

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wouldn't the fact that hardly any of those players are with the team anymore give more weight to that statement though?

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9 hours ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

I'd love to hear your perspective, my perspective is that Benning has overhauled the entire team so nobody from this point on can say things like "Mike Gillis didn't give him anything" because it's ALL Benning from here on out. 

 

What's yours?

Exactly, all Benning. I'm a big supporter of Jim.

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16 hours ago, 6string said:

Exactly, all Benning. I'm a big supporter of Jim.

I think there is a disconnect here but hey im all for JB too, no more MG blaming from here on out. 

Edited by Where'd Luongo?
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There needs to be a critical analysis of Utica. The goal, the staff, the approach, the success or lack of, a comparison with other organizations, the degree of attention from Vancouver. I could be wrong but to me it seems like it's drifting along, mediocrity which surely the worse option. Petrus Palmu may have done this organization a favour. Players who have spent thei development years in the NCAA have been the best success. Boeser, Gaudette, Hutton and Stecher, all enjoyed 3 or 4  years in the NCAA honing thier skills and it shows

Edited by Fred65
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Never mind.

Edited by gurn

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3 hours ago, Fred65 said:

There needs to be a critical analysis of Utica. The goal, the staff, the approach, the success or lack of, a comparison with other organizations, the degree of attention from Vancouver. I could be wrong but to me it seems like it's drifting along, mediocrity which surely the worse option. Petrus Palmu may have done this organization a favour. Players who have spent thei development years in the NCAA have been the best success. Boeser, Gaudette, Hutton and Stecher, all enjoyed 3 or 4  years in the NCAA honing thier skills and it shows

Very good point, if players are developing better in college then something needs to change. 

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On 1/10/2019 at 1:18 PM, canuckleheads fan said:

Lockwood is still at Michigan, under performing 16 points in 21 games and concussion prone.

 

The Manitoba Moose did what a farm team is SUPPOSED TO DO, develop your prospects. I don't think we're seeing that from Utica. We need a new coach/management team there.

Thanks for the Lockwood update. Cheers.

I think they're doing fine in Utica. I'm guessing since JB took over as 'Nucks GM, the talent pool has gotten better in Utica. There's always hits and misses and our prospects are aren't all in Utica.

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JB has been manager of Orca Bay for 4 years, leave it for a further 3-4 years before assessing  is a lot of wasted time

 

Assuming with the future Pettersson and the addition of Hughes is going to make Vcr a middle of the pack team ie they're not going to be drafting top 5 players any longer so development become even more important IMO. By the way I don't see Virtanen as a Utica model development player. He did poorly in Utica and then joined the Canucks full time and to be honest never did well in fact many suggested he should be sent back down. It's only this year he's started showing some improvement. Both Baertschi and Goldobin spent most of their development years in other organizations. The best development the Canucks has done is the players left in the NCAA ( Boeser, Hutton, Gaudette and Stecher) and that's fact. Archibald they got close but couldn't get him over the hump. Goalies different category, and different attention. Tryamkin came from the KHL, Pettersson from the SEL Gaunce is the player that has spent the most of his years under the Utica tutelage and we can all see how that's doing. Certainly we can dream about our prospects but none are certainties. The  best way to judge what can be done with development is to compare with other systems. This is not about drafting, it's entirely sperate. Personally I think Brackett has done very well since he took over. I have the best feeling the prospects we have will likely to succeed will be Madden, Rathbone or Hughes. I don't know how many have witnessed the intensity of the training NCAA programs offer, but I can assure you it's intense AND unlike the pros there's no limitation ( or very little ) to the amount of work these kids do daily, they're not unionized. I don't see any down side to making a critical analyses of thr Utica team, staff, success.Funny enough I was watching some Premiership soccer today and the comments were how many young players want to attend a team that is known  for poor development.  I suspect that's true  

Edited by Fred65
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1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

JB has been manager of Orca Bay for 4 years, leave it for a further 3-4 years before assessing  is a lot of wasted time

 

Assuming with the future Pettersson and the addition of Hughes is going to make Vcr a middle of the pack team ie they're not going to be drafting top 5 players any longer so development become even more important IMO. By the way I don't see Virtanen as a Utica model development player. He did poorly in Utica and then joined the Canucks full time and to be honest never did well in fact many suggested he should be sent back down. It's only this year he's started showing some improvement. Both Baertschi and Goldobin spent most of their development years in other organizations. The best development the Canucks has done is the players left in the NCAA ( Boeser, Hutton, Gaudette and Stecher) and that's fact. Archibald they got close but couldn't get him over the hump. Goalies different category, and different attention. Tryamkin came from the KHL, Pettersson from the SEL Gaunce is the player that has spent the most of his years under the Utica tutelage and we can all see how that's doing. Certainly we can dream about our prospects but none are certainties. The  best way to judge what can be done with development is to compare with other systems. This is not about drafting, it's entirely sperate. Personally I think Brackett has done very well since he took over. I have the best feeling the prospects we have will likely to succeed will be Madden, Rathbone or Hughes. I don't know how many have witnessed the intensity of the training NCAA programs offer, but I can assure you it's intense AND unlike the pros there's no limitation ( or very little ) to the amount of work these kids do daily, they're not unionized. I don't see any down side to making a critical analyses of thr Utica team, staff, success.Funny enough I was watching some Premiership soccer today and the comments were how many young players want to attend a team that is known  for poor development.  I suspect that's true  

 

Fred65 I guess I don't really get your post. Do you think there's a problem and if you do what's your reasoning for it and who do you thinks to blame?

 

Utica as whole has only been a team in the AHL for 6 years now (this being their 6th) all being with the Canucks. It Does matter what players the Canucks had In Their System prior to making Utica their AHL affiliate team. That's where the previous management team comes in. Unless you feel the Canucks haven't been able to develop players through any of their AHL affiliates and that there's a deeper problem with the Canuck organizations development team as a whole. 


But if the Canucks farm system had next to no NHL caliber players before Utica, then Utica shouldn't be blamed for not having a strong development system as of right now.

 

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Good question in my mind. Frankly I'm not sure who to blame, but that doesn't deflect from saying there is a problem. JB has been "in charge" of the club for 4 years and it's hard to believe that there hasn't been a time in those 4 years when a rational mind would question what and how much success Utica has had. I'd have thought the success of Utica would be a high priority and under constant review, but the Palmu statement suggests this is not the case. To me the idea of owning your own farm system was a good idea by the Gillis regime. From what I can see is the follow up is in question. You say Utica has been around for ONLY six years that's a career for many players and prospects, as the old saying states "Time and tide waits for no man" Utica needs a review yesterday I don't see any resounding success stories coming out of Utica. We some how conflate drafting and development and that's not the case at all. Certainly the Comets success cannot be compared for development with the job the NCAA does, not even close. Think of this the University of Maine took a modest 5th round pick and made him into a second pairing NHL D. Think of Tanev who was an FA, attended RIT and has done well. When has Utica done any thing similar. In fact if I recall right Hutton when he first arrived in Utica was sent packing after 4 games and returned the next season to be a instant success story ( He did fall down in his sophomore season )  He's a guy that spent 5 years in tier 2 hockey and then 3 years at the U of Maine and followed that up with and NHL career. The motto for Utica might best be described as "Abandon hope all you who enter here"  :lol::lol:  If the organization thinks Utica is a great model I'd sure like to know what yard stick they're using. I think fans get confused with dreams of how well the prospects are doing because it feels good. But as we all know that's not how business is done if we wish for success. I'm disappointed with Utica, I'm not disappointed with the drafting. Prospects shouldn't be a throw away commodity …. IMHO

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1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

Good question in my mind. Frankly I'm not sure who to blame, but that doesn't deflect from saying there is a problem. JB has been "in charge" of the club for 4 years and it's hard to believe that there hasn't been a time in those 4 years when a rational mind would question what and how much success Utica has had. I'd have thought the success of Utica would be a high priority and under constant review, but the Palmu statement suggests this is not the case. To me the idea of owning your own farm system was a good idea by the Gillis regime. From what I can see is the follow up is in question. You say Utica has been around for ONLY six years that's a career for many players and prospects, as the old saying states "Time and tide waits for no man" Utica needs a review yesterday I don't see any resounding success stories coming out of Utica. We some how conflate drafting and development and that's not the case at all. Certainly the Comets success cannot be compared for development with the job the NCAA does, not even close. Think of this the University of Maine took a modest 5th round pick and made him into a second pairing NHL D. Think of Tanev who was an FA, attended RIT and has done well. When has Utica done any thing similar. In fact if I recall right Hutton when he first arrived in Utica was sent packing after 4 games and returned the next season to be a instant success story ( He did fall down in his sophomore season )  He's a guy that spent 5 years in tier 2 hockey and then 3 years at the U of Maine and followed that up with and NHL career. The motto for Utica might best be described as "Abandon hope all you who enter here"  :lol::lol:  If the organization thinks Utica is a great model I'd sure like to know what yard stick they're using. I think fans get confused with dreams of how well the prospects are doing because it feels good. But as we all know that's not how business is done if we wish for success. I'm disappointed with Utica, I'm not disappointed with the drafting. Prospects shouldn't be a throw away commodity …. IMHO

I think you’re grossly overestimating what you’re going to get out of your AHL team.  The top players will simply bypass the AHL or use it for a cup of coffee at best.  That’s not a knock on Utica.

 

That JB drafted and signed some stronger players out of college or European leagues also isn’t a knock on Utica. If that’s the case you may as well crap on major junior’s ability to develop a prospect as well.

 

What you’re going to get out of Utica are the guys who take longer to develop.  Demko and Juolevi are the blue chippers out of that group.  

 

TRO gave the breakdown of our prospects.. Utica actually looks good in where they’ve gotten guys like Archibald, Biega and Gaunce.  They’re depth guys but serviceable.

 

For upside theres Demko and Juolevi. Those two could be big impact guys in the future who will have developed in Utica.

 

Currently with Utica theres Dahlen and MacEwen who should get chances in the NHL.

 

On D: McEneny, Sautner and Brisebois seem like they have a chance to be depth NHL’ers.  With the way our contracts break down, JB can spend on depth.  When Boeser and Pettersson get paid, these cheaper home grown depth guys will get more of a chance. 

 

I also don't think you can dismiss what Utica did for Virtanen... but also the times Bo, Goldy and Baertschi were able to go and find their feet in a club controlled environment.  That’s huge.

 

Overall I’m not sure it’s fair to point fingers at Utica based on two very young and one long shot prospect struggling this year.

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18 hours ago, Fred65 said:

Good question in my mind. Frankly I'm not sure who to blame, but that doesn't deflect from saying there is a problem. JB has been "in charge" of the club for 4 years and it's hard to believe that there hasn't been a time in those 4 years when a rational mind would question what and how much success Utica has had. I'd have thought the success of Utica would be a high priority and under constant review, but the Palmu statement suggests this is not the case. To me the idea of owning your own farm system was a good idea by the Gillis regime. From what I can see is the follow up is in question. You say Utica has been around for ONLY six years that's a career for many players and prospects, as the old saying states "Time and tide waits for no man" Utica needs a review yesterday I don't see any resounding success stories coming out of Utica. We some how conflate drafting and development and that's not the case at all. Certainly the Comets success cannot be compared for development with the job the NCAA does, not even close. Think of this the University of Maine took a modest 5th round pick and made him into a second pairing NHL D. Think of Tanev who was an FA, attended RIT and has done well. When has Utica done any thing similar. In fact if I recall right Hutton when he first arrived in Utica was sent packing after 4 games and returned the next season to be a instant success story ( He did fall down in his sophomore season )  He's a guy that spent 5 years in tier 2 hockey and then 3 years at the U of Maine and followed that up with and NHL career. The motto for Utica might best be described as "Abandon hope all you who enter here"  :lol::lol:  If the organization thinks Utica is a great model I'd sure like to know what yard stick they're using. I think fans get confused with dreams of how well the prospects are doing because it feels good. But as we all know that's not how business is done if we wish for success. I'm disappointed with Utica, I'm not disappointed with the drafting. Prospects shouldn't be a throw away commodity …. IMHO

Fred65 well said. I don't 100% agree but you make some good points. 

I find it difficult to analyze Utica. Firstly, because I don't know what the coaches and development team are telling each player individually and secondly, I don't watch Utica games (unless their on tv). 

 

One last thing I will point out and I think it's pretty important. Your AHL team and development always seems better once your NHL team is good. When your team is good fans focus more on the NHL team and if their going to win the Cup. Therefore there is less scrutiny on your prospects and you are usually just bringing players up from the AHL to fill holes lower in the lineup. For instance Tampa Bay...Tampa Bay is the hot team right now and lots of people point them out as the new model franchise.

 

While since 2014 the same year Jim Benning took over the Canucks, the Lightning have only had 3 of their draft picks play at least 10 games for their NHL team - B. Point (2014 - 3rd Round), A. Cirelli (2015 - 3rd Round), M. Joseph (2015 - 4th Round), they traded away 2 others who have since played 10+ games for their new team - T. DeAngelo (2014 - 1st Round) and B. Howden (2016 - 1st Round). 

 

Compare that to the Canucks who have had 7 players meet the same criteria, 2 of which have also been traded away and 1 has gone back to Europe - J. Virtanen (2014 - 1st Round), B. Boeser (2015 - 1st Round), A. Gaudette (2015 - 5th Round), E. Pettersson (2017 - 1st Round). The one who went back to Europe is - N. Tryamkin (2014 - 3rd Round) and the 2 who have been traded away are - J. McCann - (2014 - 1st Round) and G. Forsling (2014 - 5th Round).

 

Obviously the biggest difference is that we fans are hoping and praying all our picks turn into star players to make up for the deficiancies currently present in our lineup. Whereas Tampa Bay can be patient and wait until their prospects are ready and even if they don't pan out, it's not so bad, because their NHL team is really good and because they are located in Florida and hockey isn't as heavily scrutinized there. 

Edited by TheRealistOptimist

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sort of a catch 22 with any development team in the AHL....when prospects get called up, they need to have players replace them. Therefore, to have a successful team, the team needs a veteran group of players who are going nowhere but the AHL...good pros is what they call them to help push the prospects, but also to play when the call ups are made.

 

Next year we shall see Gadjovich, Lind, MacEwen, Joulevi, Dahlen, etc. make steady progress in the AHL (if they have the talent that they are perceived to have) and possibly split time in the NHL...need those good pros to hold down the fort when those prospects get their chance in the bigs.

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On 1/12/2019 at 7:24 PM, TheRealistOptimist said:

Which players that Jim Benning has drafted or signed since he took over should have been already developed and graduated from Utica to the Canucks?

2014

1st - J. Virtanen - Spent a year developing in Utica under Travis Green.

1st - J. McCann - Traded away.

2nd - T. Demko - Spent a couple years in NCAA then developed in Utica. Now with the Canucks. 

3rd - N. Tryamkin - Refused to go to Utica for any length of time. Now in Russia. 

5th - G. Forsling - Traded away.

6th - K. Petit - Didn't get signed by the Canucks.

7th - M. Stewart - Was signed by the Canucks only played 6 games in Utica, was/is mostly a ECHL player, no longer with the organization.

 

2015

1st - B. Boeser - Developed in the NCAA, never played in Utica.

3rd - G. Brisebois - Organization seemingly is happy with his development in Utica. Is only 21 and in his 2nd full season in Utica. 

4th - D. Zhukenov - Not yet signed by the Canucks. Currently playing in Europe. 

5th - C. Neil - Didn't get signed by the Canucks. 

5th - A. Gaudette - Developed in the NCAA, has only played 7 games in Utica, most of his time spent with the Canucks. 

6th - L. Jasek - Developing well in Utica. Is only in his first full season in Utica. 

7th - T. Olson - Didn't get signed by the Canucks. 

 

2016

1st - O. Juolevi - Has developed in the OHL and Liiga the last 2 years as he wasn't eligible for Utica. Has been hampered by injuries (out for the year), but was developing well in Utica. 

3rd - W. Lockwood - Is still playing in the NCAA.

5th - C. Candella - Didn't get signed by the Canucks. 

6th - J. Stukel - Didn't get signed by the Canucks.

7th - R. Abols - Didn't get signed by the Canucks. 

7th - B. McKenzie - Didn't get signed by the Canucks.

 

2017

1st - E. Pettersson - Developed in the SHL, Never played in Utica.

2nd - K. Lind - Is in his first full season in Utica. Just turned 20 in October.

2nd - J. Gadjovich - Is in his first season in Utica. Just turned 20 in October.

3rd - M. DiPietro - Is still playing in the OHL.

4th - J. Rathbone - Is playing in the NCAA.

5th - K. Gunnarsson - Is playing in the SHL. 

6th - P. Palmu - Spent first half of this season developing in Utica, now playing the last half of the season in Liiga, where he played all of last season. 

7th - M. Brassard - Is still playing in the OHL.

 

2018 

1st - Q. Hughes - Is playing in the NCAA.

2nd - J. Woo - Is still playing in the WHL.

3rd - T. Madden - Is playing in the NCAA. 

5th - T. Utunen - Is playing in Liiga. 

6th - A. Manukyan - Is playing in the KHL.

7th - M. Thiessen - Is playing in the USHL. 

 

Players Acquired but not through the Draft

Traded for - J. Dahlen - Playing in first season in Utica and North America. Seemingly developing fine in Utica. 

Undrafted - Z. MacEwen - Playing his 2nd full season in Utica. Developing really well.

Undrafted - J. Chatfield - Playing his 2nd season in Utica. Unfortunately been hurt for a large portion of the season. All reports seem to be that he's been developing nicely. 

Undrafted - E. McEneny - Played 1 year in the ECHL, was injured pretty much all of last year, So is in his 2nd full season in Utica. Probably not in the Canucks future plans.  E. McEneny was actually signed by the previous management team.

Undrafted - A. Sautner - Is in his 4th full season in Utica. May get called up to the Canucks at some point but probably an afterthought in their future plans. 

Traded for - T. Kero - Good AHL'er, fringe NHL'er. 1st season in Utica. 

Waivers - R. Boucher - Good AHL'er, fringe NHL'er. 2nd season in Utica.

**Late addition (I orginally left him out)

Traded for - N. Goldobin - Played under half a season in Utica. Most of his AHL time was spent in San Jose.

 

So again tell me which players that Jim Benning has acquired, should have already been developed by Utica and graduated to the NHL?

 

I think, if in 2-3 years Utica hasn't started creating a pipeline from Utica to the Canucks, then it might be time to start asking more questions. I don't believe there's anything to be concerned with at the moment.

 

What a bunch of busts

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On 1/9/2019 at 8:09 PM, 6string said:

I agree and don't forget Mike Gillis had no interest in the bigger picture leaving the farm with scraps, what a mess Benning and Linden had to begin with.

Of course he didn't, vancouver has always had the 'win it NOW" thing going on and Gillis almost did it for us IF not for the cap.. people forget that, he tied up up a pretty good line of players and was about to go after more and then it hit... i remember that day when they announced the cap and F was i livid! We were a cpl of players away from a serious cup run. Still pissed about it to this day but when Gillis was handed the reigns it, and it could have been anyone it would have been and that same win it now would have been laid on and the same old "screw the future" for NOW routine..

 Glad someone had the balls to tear it down and start over, was getting tired of watching the same old $&!#e year in and year out... entertaining to watch during the season but then witness a slaughter against tougher faster teams, at least we're getting there.. 

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23 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Of course he didn't, vancouver has always had the 'win it NOW" thing going on and Gillis almost did it for us IF not for the cap.. people forget that, he tied up up a pretty good line of players and was about to go after more and then it hit... i remember that day when they announced the cap and F was i livid! We were a cpl of players away from a serious cup run. Still pissed about it to this day but when Gillis was handed the reigns it, and it could have been anyone it would have been and that same win it now would have been laid on and the same old "screw the future" for NOW routine..

 Glad someone had the balls to tear it down and start over, was getting tired of watching the same old $&!#e year in and year out... entertaining to watch during the season but then witness a slaughter against tougher faster teams, at least we're getting there.. 

That team with a better person in charge should have made at least two cup appearances. We were as good as Chicago and Boston and with a better staff we would have had one cup today. I really believe that!

 

Gillis has never been interviewed for another posting - enough said!

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Amazing analysis TRO! 

 

Two reasons why I think there's alot of unwarranted criticism with how prospects are being developed in the AHL:

 

- When the comets were first acquired by the Canucks, we had prospects like Shinkaruk, Cassels, Subban, Jensen, Grenier, Cederholm,  and Corrado, all drafted by previous management. Undrafted signings including Valk, Archibald, Zalewski, and Lain. Not a particularly strong pool of prospects as evidenced by their progression at being moved (Shinkaruk, Jensen, Subban, and Lain) or after they left for FA (Cassels, Grenier, Valk). Of the list, only Archibald contributed to some decent time in the NHL, and one could speculate how Corrado would've developed if went unclaimed when sent back on waivers.

 

- Utica hasn't had a such a big influx of rookies arriving simultaneously. This year, Utica added Juolevi, Jasek, Dahlen, Lind, Gadjovich, Gaudette, and Palmu. That's 1/3 of your roster, not to mention you still have a few 2nd year players like Brisebois, MacEwen, Chatfield, and Demko who are all still developing. I mean, maybe Lind ends up like a Vey or a Grenier, or perhaps he turns out to be a Nyquist. 

 

Clearly there is a communication issue if Palmu says one thing and Cull said another, but I'm not going to cry wolf over the overall handling of Utica until we garner subpar results in 3 years or so. I would presume they wouldn't have extended their partnership if they were unsatisfied. 

Edited by therodigy
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