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Utica prospects graduation to big club?

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There have been a few players who either hit the deep pro water in Utica or your onto something here.

Willie D put in 3 years in so if that's in anyway relatable,  despite significant results after the first year easy to say there was little after.

I imagine there is much attention to the Farm and a change is likely managed on a larger timeline.

 

Even if Culls job was on the line

1) he gets a chance to prove his vision

2) when you fire someone, you need someone else to get the job done

3) tough to attract good talent into your system if your too fickle and reactionary

 

 

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How do you expect players who are not even AHL calibre to find a home in the NHL. 

 

Yeesh, there's a reason they're called prospects.

 

EDIT: Also, the AHL is not a development league. That myth needs to die. 

Edited by Mathew Barzal
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43 minutes ago, Mathew Barzal said:

How do you expect players who are not even AHL calibre to find a home in the NHL. 

 

Yeesh, there's a reason they're called prospects.

 

EDIT: Also, the AHL is not a development league. That myth needs to die. 

Not a development league huh?

Let's look at Nashville.

Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee

Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee

Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee

Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee

Sissons 3 season Milwaukee

Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee

 

Even players they've traded for have lots of time in the minors. 

Some who have years playing in Europe getting ice time before they come to the NHL. 

But it's a myth..... It's just a pro league. 

 

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Utica prospects are being developed.

 

Thatcher Demko just got called up to the big leagues... probably for good... after two seasons with Utica.

 

Dahlen is coming along quite nicely as a rookie, putting up some points while he learns to backcheck.

 

Zack MacEwen is also developing over last year showing better scoring and defense.

 

Adam Gaudette is learning to score against professional goalies after he couldn't get over that hump in Vancouver.

 

Ashton Sautner is a solid AHL D who could be called up if necessary.

 

Brendan Gaunce is Brendan Gaunce... he is an capable defensive minded NHL 4th liner who can play on the Canucks if injuries require it.

 

Petrus Palmu was loaned to a Liiga team because he will likely develop better closer to home.  He'll be back in Utica next year or at the end of the Liiga season.

 

The two disappointments for me are Jonah Gadjovich and Kole Lind so far... but they are rookies and it does take time for a OHL player to jump to pro.  The fact they are not playing a lot of games tells me the coaches down there are working on their conditioning and skating... and if that can be improved, then they will do better.

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Florida did not develop Marky. We had to rebuild Marky. And you criminally underrate how important that season in Utica was for Jake Virtanen.

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7 hours ago, Mathew Barzal said:

How do you expect players who are not even AHL calibre to find a home in the NHL. 

 

Yeesh, there's a reason they're called prospects.

 

EDIT: Also, the AHL is not a development league. That myth needs to die. 

 

The AHL calls themselves a developmental league.  That's why they've implemented the veteran rule.  Teams have to dress at least 12 players with less than 260 pro games.

 

Today Virtanen has 262 pro-games.  Goldobin has 310.  They count at the start of the season though - Goldobin would have been considered a veteran this season but not Virtanen.

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10 hours ago, 6string said:

I agree and don't forget Mike Gillis had no interest in the bigger picture leaving the farm with scraps, what a mess Benning and Linden had to begin with.

How long are you gonna play this card? How long has Benning been here?

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Neither Hutton or Stecher had more than a cup of coffee in the AHL. IMHO this is a high risk option for the long term development of these players. It nearly finished Hutton. He seems to have recovered. Stecher is learning his game at the NHL level. I wince some nights but it is what it is. Both of them were NCAA developed which is different from CHL prospects playing in Utica.  

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Interestingly there is a draft data analysis article from the athletic this a.m with Judd brackett where he touches on some of the issues discussed here.

Screenshot_20190110-073908_The Athletic.jpg

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The Canucks really need to purchase an AHL team to oversee the development process in the minors. The problem with Utica is they want to win, so they give more chances to veteran AHL players over developing younger players. This is why you often see some of our young prospects riding the pine.

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10 hours ago, HerrDrFunk said:

One factor to consider as well is that the Canucks’ prospects who’ve become regulars (or project to) have developed elsewhere than the AHL. The NCAA for Hughes, Hutton, Stetcher, Gaudette and Boeser, the SHL for Pettersson.

Yeah this is a good point. This is the first time Utica has had multiple prospects that actually have potentially a strong NHL future.

 

Virtanen, Saunter , McEneny, breezer, demko, MacEwan are all guys that stand out to me. Aside from Virtanen and demko though there hasn't been any high quality prospects.

 

Virtanen (1st rounder)

Gaunce (1st rounder)

Demko (2nd rounder)

Breezer (3rd rounder)

Sautner (undrafted)

MacEwan (undrafted)

McEneny (undrafted)

Chatfield (undrafted)

Eliot (undrafted)

 

I have to say our scouting staff + Jim Benning has done well finding these free agents.

 

Right now we got

 

Juolevi (1st)

Lind (2nd)

Dahlen (2nd)

Gadjovich (2nd)

Gaudette (5th)

Jasek (6th)

Palmu (6th)

 

Please tell me if I'm missing anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if I am. My point being we have more prospects in the AHL now then we've had in the past. Most of whom have come in late last year or at the start of this year.

 

In terms of prospect management now that maybe a good talking point. But what do I know about Utica and how to properly develop players. I got no idea personally. Maybe some of you have a better idea.

 

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I didn't include markstrom, baercheese, or Goldie because their tenures are short. Gaudette is on a call up but we don't know if he will stick. Likely not, unless Sutter gets moved 

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21 minutes ago, Deets said:

The Canucks really need to purchase an AHL team to oversee the development process in the minors. The problem with Utica is they want to win, so they give more chances to veteran AHL players over developing younger players. This is why you often see some of our young prospects riding the pine.

Development doesn't just mean lots of playing time; it means they have to learn how to earn playing time, and one way they can learn how to earn it is from veteran players, as well as learning how to win games, learning how to play your role, play as a team, etc. 

Edited by Jester13
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13 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

The point of your post is that Utica has not performed well developing prospects for Vancouver.  Correct?

2013 the Canucks drafted Horvat.  At that time current Canuck management was not in charge and the Utica club did not yet exist. Utica became a team for the 13/14

So we are taking about what 5 years?

That's a very short time frame to assess development partner. Especially since it's their first 5 years. Let's give it some time.  

 

 

The average hockey career is 5 years, so give a career length to see if they can make it?

13 hours ago, 6string said:

I agree and don't forget Mike Gillis had no interest in the bigger picture leaving the farm with scraps, what a mess Benning and Linden had to begin with.

Under Gillis the team had winning season's and went to the playoffs just about every year losing the championship twice.

10 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Not a development league huh?

Let's look at Nashville.

Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee

Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee

Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee

Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee

Sissons 3 season Milwaukee

Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee

 

Even players they've traded for have lots of time in the minors. 

Some who have years playing in Europe getting ice time before they come to the NHL. 

But it's a myth..... It's just a pro league. 

 

Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee - 61 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee - 87 games - 4th rnd - #112

Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee - 121 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee - 47 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Sissons 3 season Milwaukee - 176 games - 2 nd rdn - #50

Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee - 2 season's only 121 games - 2nd rnd - #52

 

Most look like they were taken from there draft and directly into the farm, the Canucks leave the players on the teams for a year.

Under Gillis numerous AHL players came up and some stuck.

 

And yeah, blaming anything on Gillis now is such a stretch, hockey careers have started and ended since he was around.

 

But under this administration Utica has become a graveyard for players. I see other players left because nobody talked to them, maybe they were homesick eh?

 

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2 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

 

 

 

The average hockey career is 5 years, so give a career length to see if they can make it?

Under Gillis the team had winning season's and went to the playoffs just about every year losing the championship twice.

Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee - 61 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee - 87 games - 4th rnd - #112

Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee - 121 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee - 47 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Sissons 3 season Milwaukee - 176 games - 2 nd rdn - #50

Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee - 2 season's only 121 games - 2nd rnd - #52

 

Most look like they were taken from there draft and directly into the farm, the Canucks leave the players on the teams for a year.

Under Gillis numerous AHL players came up and some stuck.

 

And yeah, blaming anything on Gillis now is such a stretch, hockey careers have started and ended since he was around.

 

But under this administration Utica has become a graveyard for players. I see other players left because nobody talked to them, maybe they were homesick eh?

 

I agree.  We need our farm team to be our farm team.  Get our young guys enough minutes to show whether they project to be NHL players or not.  If not, then trade them and move on.  

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14 hours ago, 6string said:

I agree and don't forget Mike Gillis had no interest in the bigger picture leaving the farm with scraps, what a mess Benning and Linden had to begin with.

Just to point out...  

 

Gillis' record with the Moose:  133-86-7

 

Gillis' record with the Wolves:  79-57-9

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It appears the Comets have a similar approach as the big club in terms of balancing new prospects with more experienced players/vets, and not wanting to have a line-up of all super young guys and putting them over their heads.

 

With such a rabid fanbase in Utica, they're also balancing wins-losses and icing a compeititive team. Also similar to the dynamics of the big club.

 

I get it from a standpoint of replicating environments and creating a culture of earning your time. 

 

But I'm not sure how prepared the organization was to have such a backlog of prospects with specific development plans for individual players. 

 

We've got a good-bad problem with more prospects. I really think it's a major challenge to give all of our prospects exactly what they need to succeed. Especially with so many players vying for limited opportunities. We need to get better so prospects are getting fair shakes and guys aren't slipping through the cracks. 

 

Obviously some guys will learn and adjust to the systems quicker than others. And like others have pointed out, development isn't just about ice time. You've got to learn systems, roles, and make the most of your time.

 

I was really rooting for Palmu. This kid could be a real gem despite his size. To a certain degree, I think Jasek's success limited Palmu's opportunity on the right side. I hope we get him back and give him a legitimate shot. Interestingly, Carcone and Archie are gone, leaving two more open spots on the right side. Too bad. 

 

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1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said:

 

 

 

The average hockey career is 5 years, so give a career length to see if they can make it?

Under Gillis the team had winning season's and went to the playoffs just about every year losing the championship twice.

Ryan Ellis parts of two seasons at Milwaukee - 61 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Arvidsson 1.5 seasons in Milwaukee - 87 games - 4th rnd - #112

Fiala 3 seasons Milwaukee - 121 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Forsberg 1 season Milwaukee - 47 games - 1rst rnd - #11

Sissons 3 season Milwaukee - 176 games - 2 nd rdn - #50

Salomaki 3 seasons Milwaukee - 2 season's only 121 games - 2nd rnd - #52

 

Most look like they were taken from there draft and directly into the farm, the Canucks leave the players on the teams for a year.

Under Gillis numerous AHL players came up and some stuck.

 

And yeah, blaming anything on Gillis now is such a stretch, hockey careers have started and ended since he was around.

 

But under this administration Utica has become a graveyard for players. I see other players left because nobody talked to them, maybe they were homesick eh?

 

Fiala, Ellis, Forsberg were high 1st rounders.  

Arvidsson was a 4 draft overager out of the SHL (eligible in 2011 already but drafted in 2014) - i.e. when drafted he had 3 years of pro-experience more than players from his draft class.  

 

The others have spent more time in the AHL.  Salamoki missed most of the 2014/15 season with an injury.  He only played 38 games that season.  That's why he only has 121 games in the AHL over 3 seasons.  He got promoted in his draft+5.  Nashville have mostly promoted players taken past the 1st round once they became waiver eligible.  GM Poile always says the road to Nashville goes through Milwaukee.

 

This is when players got promoted definitely by Nashville.

1st rounders (top-15)

Ellis  draft+5          

Fiala draft+4

Forsberg draft+3

Virtanen made the NHL in his draft+4.  Goldobin spent part of last season in the AHL - this is his draft+5.  Boeser made the team in his draft+3.  Pettersson is in his draft+2.

 

Watson was an 18th overall.  He made the NHL in his draft+6 and was initially sent down through waivers in his draft+7 but got recalled a few weeks later.

 

2nd rounders and later

Salomaki draft+5

Sissons draft+5

Arvidsson draft+3 but it was his draft eligibility +6 as he was already eligible in 2011

 

This is where the Canucks are vs their draft year

Dahlen (2nd round) draft+3

Lind, Gadjovich (2nd round) draft+2

Palmu draft+2 but he was a 3 draft overager so for his draft class it's draft+4.  He's a 6th round pick.  

Brisebois (3rd round) draft+4

Juolevi draft+3 but will lose this season to injury.  Benning was hoping for him to play some games in the NHL this season.

 

They wouldn't be promoted any quicker in Nashville.  Sissons and Salomaki made Nashville in their draft+5 as 2nd rounders. 

 

Edited by mll
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