Utica prospects graduation to big club?

[canuckleheads fan]

Well, Utica did give us Travis Green and there are a few kids in Utica that show promise who are unexpected like the previously mentioned Dmen, Jasek, Dahlen, and of course McEwan, but I agree with the OP why have Lind and Gadgovich not been better? These two were considered minor steals when JB drafted them and they don't seem to be doing much. I know Lind was hurt for awhile and I'm not following Utica closely but it seems nuts not playing the young guys every chance you get. I remember how many great players were developed by the Manotoba Moose, like Kessler and long shots like Burrows, Bieksa and Rypien. The Moose even gave us AV and Nolan Baumgartner. I'm not seeing that kind of success out of Utica, even though their cupboard is more full that Manitoba's was. Seems like other teams call up ready to thrive prospects from their AHL affiliates, where are ours?

[Glug Datt]

shinkaruk & corrado say hi.. 

 

oh wait.. 

[spook007]

56 minutes ago, mll said:

Fiala, Ellis, Forsberg were high 1st rounders.  

Arvidsson was a 4 draft overager out of the SHL (eligible in 2011 already but drafted in 2014) - i.e. when drafted he had 3 years of pro-experience more than players from his draft class.  

 

The others have spent more time in the AHL.  Salamoki missed most of the 2014/15 season with an injury.  He only played 38 games that season.  That's why he only has 121 games in the AHL over 3 seasons.  He got promoted in his draft+5.  Nashville have mostly promoted players taken past the 1st round once they became waiver eligible.  GM Poile always says the road to Nashville goes through Milwaukee.

 

This is when players got promoted definitely by Nashville.

1st rounders (top-15)

Ellis  draft+5          

Fiala draft+4

Forsberg draft+3

Virtanen made the NHL in his draft+4.  Goldobin spent part of last season in the AHL - this is his draft+5.  Boeser made the team in his draft+3.  Pettersson is in his draft+2.

 

Watson was an 18th overall.  He made the NHL in his draft+6 and was initially sent down through waivers in his draft+7 but got recalled a few weeks later.

 

2nd rounders and later

Salomaki draft+5

Sissons draft+5

Arvidsson draft+3 but it was his draft eligibility +6 as he was already eligible in 2011

 

This is where the Canucks are vs their draft year

Dahlen (2nd round) draft+3

Lind, Gadjovich (2nd round) draft+2

Palmu draft+2 but he was a 3 draft overager so for his draft class it's draft+4.  He's a 6th round pick.  

Brisebois (3rd round) draft+4

Juolevi draft+3 but will lose this season to injury.  Benning was hoping for him to play some games in the NHL this season.

 

They wouldn't be promoted any quicker in Nashville.  Sissons and Salomaki made Nashville in their draft+5 as 2nd rounders. 

 

Good post...thank you.

 

Good to see apples compared with apples...

[NexusRift]

48 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

.......but I agree with the OP why have Lind and Gadgovich not been better? These two were considered minor steals when JB drafted them and they don't seem to be doing much. I know Lind was hurt for awhile and I'm not following Utica closely but it seems nuts not playing the young guys every chance you get. I remember how many great players were developed by the Manotoba Moose, like Kessler and long shots like Burrows, Bieksa and Rypien............

Manitoba Moose seems so long ago. Best to forget that era and move on........

After seeing the Comet/Marlies game on TV the other day, I must say that Gads 'n' Lind were a disappointment. Lind performed better than Gads, but both looked weak.

Where's Will Lockwood?!?!?!?? Isn't he with Utica?

[canuckleheads fan]

22 minutes ago, NexusRift said:

Manitoba Moose seems so long ago. Best to forget that era and move on........

After seeing the Comet/Marlies game on TV the other day, I must say that Gads 'n' Lind were a disappointment. Lind performed better than Gads, but both looked weak.

Where's Will Lockwood?!?!?!?? Isn't he with Utica?

Lockwood is still at Michigan, under performing 16 points in 21 games and concussion prone.

 

The Manitoba Moose did what a farm team is SUPPOSED TO DO, develop your prospects. I don't think we're seeing that from Utica. We need a new coach/management team there.

[mll]

37 minutes ago, Glug Datt said:

shinkaruk & corrado say hi.. 

 

oh wait.. 

Jensen too.  

[spook007]

51 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

Well, Utica did give us Travis Green and there are a few kids in Utica that show promise who are unexpected like the previously mentioned Dmen, Jasek, Dahlen, and of course McEwan, but I agree with the OP why have Lind and Gadgovich not been better? These two were considered minor steals when JB drafted them and they don't seem to be doing much. I know Lind was hurt for awhile and I'm not following Utica closely but it seems nuts not playing the young guys every chance you get. I remember how many great players were developed by the Manotoba Moose, like Kessler and long shots like Burrows, Bieksa and Rypien. The Moose even gave us AV and Nolan Baumgartner. I'm not seeing that kind of success out of Utica, even though their cupboard is more full that Manitoba's was. Seems like other teams call up ready to thrive prospects from their AHL affiliates, where are ours?

Hmmmm...

Kessler - split his first pro season aged 19 in 2003 split between Moose and Canucks so he was developed as much with the Canucks. 2nd season he spent with Moose but it was due to the NHL lockout. 

 

Burrows - played 2 games for Moose in 2003 aged 22, spent 2004 at Moose and Got called up to January 2006...

 

Bieksa - played 4 games with moose aged 22 in 2003, spent 2004 and half of 2005 at Moose before being called up to the Canucks. Bieksa returned to Moose at the end of the season as Jovocop returned to the line up, only to return to Canucks for good start of following season.

 

Rypien - started at Moose age 20, and played 8 games his first season there. Next 3 season his split between Canucks and Moose before playing permanently with Canucks.

 

It actually looks very much like the way players are being developed today at UTICA and elsewhere (Bieksa a graduate).... Don't think Moose developed players better than they do now.

 

 

[canuckleheads fan]

2 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Hmmmm...

Kessler - split his first pro season aged 19 in 2003 split between Moose and Canucks so he was developed as much with the Canucks. 2nd season he spent with Moose but it was due to the NHL lockout.

 

Devellopment hopefully doesn't stop after the first year.

 

Burrows - played 2 games for Moose in 2003 aged 22, spent 2004 at Moose and Got called up to January 2006... So developed in Manatoba.

 

Bieksa - played 4 games with moose aged 22 in 2003, spent 2004 and half of 2005 at Moose before being called up to the Canucks. Bieksa returned to Moose at the end of the season as Jovocop returned to the line up, only to return to Canucks for good start of following season...so developed in Manatoba

 

Rypien - started at Moose age 20, and played 8 games his first season there. Next 3 season his split between Canucks and Moose before playing permanently with Canucks...so developed in Manitoba.

 

It actually looks very much like the way players are being developed today at UTICA and elsewhere (Bieksa a graduate).... Don't think Moose developed players better than they do now.

 

Thanks for making my point, they were all developed by the Moose into regular NHLers. Kessler was a first rounder with speed and tenacity, so he was probably always going to make the show, but Gaunce was similarly a first rounder and for some reason can't turn the corner. Juice, Burr and Rypien were either low drafts or undrafted. What player meeting that description has Utica developed? Waiting on McEwan, but otherwise nothing. In fact other than Jake, and now Demko, what Canuck has spent significant time on the farm? They can't even develop the second and third rounders into regulars. I stand by my comment, we need new management in Utica.

[spook007]

41 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

Thanks for making my point, they were all developed by the Moose into regular NHLers. Kessler was a first rounder with speed and tenacity, so he was probably always going to make the show, but Gaunce was similarly a first rounder and for some reason can't turn the corner. Juice, Burr and Rypien were either low drafts or undrafted. What player meeting that description has Utica developed? Waiting on McEwan, but otherwise nothing. In fact other than Jake, and now Demko, what Canuck has spent significant time on the farm? They can't even develop the second and third rounders into regulars. I stand by my comment, we need new management in Utica.

I'm not so sure about that.

Both Bieksa and Burrows were 22 when they started at UTICA... and both about 24 when they started playing for Canucks.

Demko has progressed

Jake had good use of UTICA in his development

Chatfield is 22 and a good prospect

Sautner is 24 hand has had his first games for the Canucks

Godjovic and Lind are both only 20 and has lots of time to develop yet

Brisebois age 21 has a good shot at playing for Canucks..

McEwan age 22 has a good shot at playing for canucks

Jasek age 21 is a decent prospect

McEneny age 24 is probably not going to make it

Juolivi age 20 would have a year had it not been for injury.

Goldy age 23 playing for Canucks.

 

If a few more than Demko, Jake and Goldy progresses, I'd argue they have done an ok job. 

 

Lets not forget that with us being as poor as we have been, its the perfect time for Graduates to sign up for Canucks. with a slightly better roster, Players like Gaudette would have been playing in UTICA now, and so would Stecher most likely as well, and a Player like Ben Hutton would also have been in UTICA for more development last year, had we not been in so dire straights, as we have been.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, what I'm saying is, a lot of the players we expect to be developed, are still not at the same age as the players that came through at Moose Jaw.

[IBatch]

20 hours ago, EP Phone Home said:

Alright first of all I never make topics because I feel like most of the threads are over saturated with similar topics. However that said, after hearing the interview on Palmu on 650 yesterday on my commute to work and I heard how disappointing it was that he really didn’t get any direction or leadership from Ryan Johnson or Trent Cull. “Nobody talked to me” was one of the quotes he said. Then hours later Ryan Johnson was on the same station doing a bit of lip service on the whole development of the AHL and kids they have down there. So it dawned on me and really made me think, who besides Thatcher Demko have the Utica Comets developed from our drafting? 

 

When we got Markstrom he was pretty much NHL ready (so you could say he was developed by Florida) 

 

 

Bartschi was down for the Utica playoff push after we acquired him so not much time after he joined the big club.

 

You could say Gaunce has somewhat developed but then again he’s back in Utica trying to get himself back up here.

 

Cole Cassels unfortunately didn’t work out even though he had high promise out of junior.

 

Jordan Subban had good years in the A but never got the chance up here.

 

Jake Virtanen had one year in Utica but he had one year in the NHL before and he had the tools to play in the NHL just needed a moral kick in the a$$ to wake his attitude up. So again short track was needed.

 

Goldy had about a season and a half in Utica before waivers forced the Canucks to keep him up or lose him for nothing.

 

 

Bo, Boeser, Petterson all didn’t need to go to Utica (Bo had one conditioning stint with Utica after an injury) but they all jumped to the NHL. You could say that Gaudette played mostly in College with his development and had a cup of coffee in Utica and is back with the big club. The same can be said about Hutton who had 4 games in Utica before he became a mainstay on our blueline.

 

Some could argue that OJ was about to get a callup for his point production and play in Utica before he got hurt for the rest of the year. 

 

The only players that I see so far from his development down in Utica that will graduate to the big club would be Guillaume Brisebois and Zack MacEwen. 

 

I love our scouting and our drafting record the last 4-5 years and I think that we have some good potential with kids like Dahlen, Lind, Gadget and Palmu but how can Utica be renowned for its development when it’s so hard to find players who have made the next step up to the NHL? So if I’m being out there with my assessment of our farm team development let me know if I’m forgetting any prospects that have graduated to the big club from the farm. 

 

Also I know it’s Trent Culls job to win games in Utica but for Ryan Johnson to preach development on the radio and then when I look at the box scores of Utica games I am confused by the words the Utica GM is speaking when the kids aren’t playing over AHL contract vets who don’t have NHL aspirations like our draft picks do. I wonder if Benning and Ryan Johnson are on the same page when it comes to what’s best for our prospects in the “development league” AHL. Or will we see our other players go to different teams/leagues like Dahlin and Palmu did last year before they came to Utica.Because it sounds like they don’t get a fair shake down on the farm compared to how they are utilized on other clubs in other leagues. Look at the numbers that Palmu has put up since he left Utica! The kid isn’t a write off he’s a diamond in the rough for a 6th round pick and Cull isn’t developing him! Thanks for reading and please fill me with your thoughts and opinions because this topic really got me thinking.

 

I think there is more to this than a few interviews on the radio but it does raise some alarm bells.  From what I saw in Laval they were definitely giving OJ the primo minutes, but I’m sure that’s what their directive is from up top given his draft position.  I also noticed the coach had no problems benching him for the rest of a period after a bad shift where he missed his man (he tried to check him and play the puck but he blew right by him, if he took the body end of play) which resulted in a goal in a tight game (GW).   The coaches want to succeed so they get promoted, the team wants to win their cup too, and with call-ups it can’t be easy.  

 

As far as Palmu goes he played too, but wasn’t getting the same treatment from what I could see, wasn’t used much, he was good when he had his shifts and played a little like Theo Fluery, that is very aggressively, at least for those games he seemed fine if not good.  Hopefully he will get another shot and make the most of it, this is hockey at a level where a mistake or two can mean the difference between getting benched at your ice time cut even more,  OJ didn’t look much or any better than other defenseman out their (Brisbois wad better in Laval) but was getting the first unit PP time and the juicy assignments, Palmu, Lind (who wasn’t even dressed) and JG (who didn’t look out of place at all those games) probably have a harder time getting minutes just because there isn’t nearly as much internal pressure as a fifth overall pick to succeed.

 

As a side note Dahlen was great, first star one game and several break aways out of nowhere, he’s got speed and moves and doesn’t seem to be affected by the physical stuff at all.

[Provost]

Our development sure hasn’t been a strength yet, that is for sure.

 

The rubber really hits the road with the big crop of guys that turned pro just this season.  They are solid prospects and a couple of them have to outperform expectations to rate Utica as doing well.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

Well, Utica did give us Travis Green and there are a few kids in Utica that show promise who are unexpected like the previously mentioned Dmen, Jasek, Dahlen, and of course McEwan, but I agree with the OP why have Lind and Gadgovich not been better? These two were considered minor steals when JB drafted them and they don't seem to be doing much. I know Lind was hurt for awhile and I'm not following Utica closely but it seems nuts not playing the young guys every chance you get. I remember how many great players were developed by the Manotoba Moose, like Kessler and long shots like Burrows, Bieksa and Rypien. The Moose even gave us AV and Nolan Baumgartner. I'm not seeing that kind of success out of Utica, even though their cupboard is more full that Manitoba's was. Seems like other teams call up ready to thrive prospects from their AHL affiliates, where are ours?

I think we have to be patient with them, those guys your are referring to are just getting their feet wet in the AHL.  Burrows took a long road to the NHL, Bieksa took some time too.  I think Brisbois could be called up now and do ok, and hope he gets a shot.  Dahlen will get a turn next year I’m predicting, maybe even sooner if injuries become an issue.   Palmu said some things and is obviously disappointed, he’s a long shot and might make his way back later.  If things still look the same in two more years with these guys then it’s time to be concerned, for now just making the jump from junior to the A is a big accomplishment.

[6string]

9 hours ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

How long are you gonna play this card? How long has Benning been here?

Utica Roster 2014/15. Benning's first year...

https://theahl.com/stats/roster/390/48

[Crabcakes]

10 hours ago, Deets said:

The Canucks really need to purchase an AHL team to oversee the development process in the minors. The problem with Utica is they want to win, so they give more chances to veteran AHL players over developing younger players. This is why you often see some of our young prospects riding the pine.

Canucks Sports and Entertainment does own the Utica Comets.  Ryan Johnson, GM and Trent Cull, Head Coach are employees of CS&E. The Canucks have total control over roster decisions. 

[Alflives]

Just now, Crabcakes said:

Canucks Sports and Entertainment does own the Utica Comets.  Ryan Johnson, GM and Trent Cull, Head Coach are employees of CS&E. The Canucks have total control over roster decisions. 

Then play the kids, especially the ones who are physically mature.  Is this a reason why the Canucks want their farm team so far away - out of sight, out of mind?  

[WeneedLumme]

6 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Canucks Sports and Entertainment does own the Utica Comets.  Ryan Johnson, GM and Trent Cull, Head Coach are employees of CS&E. The Canucks have total control over roster decisions. 

It's almost as if the Canucks don't want to follow the proven successful Edmonton formula of playing all kids all the time.

[Where'd Luongo?]

3 hours ago, 6string said:

Utica Roster 2014/15. Benning's first year...

https://theahl.com/stats/roster/390/48

Exactly my point, totally different roster except Gaunce who is good.

[cyoung]

If they'd been playing palmu, dahlen, gadj and Lind over people that are playing better hockey then Utica would be a basement dwelling ahl team. 

 

Not good for their development at all. They need to play better hockey to see the ice, they won't be gifted anything.

[GreyHatnDart]

On 1/9/2019 at 10:33 PM, Mathew Barzal said:

How do you expect players who are not even AHL calibre to find a home in the NHL. 

 

Yeesh, there's a reason they're called prospects.

 

EDIT: Also, the AHL is not a development league. That myth needs to die. 

Pardon? That screenshot is taken directly from the AHL.com website. There’s literally rules in place to ensure starting lineups are dedicated to developing prospects.  

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, Alflives said:

Then play the kids, especially the ones who are physically mature.  Is this a reason why the Canucks want their farm team so far away - out of sight, out of mind?  

It’s where most of the teams are, lots of buildings within a reasonable bus ride.  Given how often guys get called up there is less travel involved.  Was like this in Syracuse before too.  Otherwise it definitely makes more sense to put them closer to Vancouver.