Buyers Or Sellers? Should Not Even Be A Question.

[RogersTowell]

9 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

The Plan. A Plan. Do they have one?

 

The team is rebuilding, it is the first year without two hall of fame players, the team still only has maybe 3 NHL quality top six players under 25, the team has two to three older defencemen that can have a huge impact on a rebuild as tradeable assets. EP is a huge surprise, I think they expected him to be very good but no one expected him to be "Gretzky II".

 

Judging how good this team is by how bad other teams are is misleading, this team needs star players in the NHL, those are most likely through the draft and while there are always players that can be shown as stars in later picks they are a very low percentage picked in those ranges. Players on this team in the top six, some of them, do not belong as top six by most playoff teams. This team has been the worst over 3 1/2 years now so if a player is that good, why has the team been so bad?

 

It might be fun to imagine this team winning the Stanley Cup or even making a dash in the playoffs but accomplishing that may come at a huge expense for one blip of one season delaying true rebuilding for another 2 to 3 years. That is right, one dash, this year and the rebuild is delayed twice the amount of time. Instead of picking a top 7 player this year that can step into the NHL Immediately or the next year, they select a 15th that is an NHL player, just not a top six player for most NHL teams.  

 

Hopefully management has a plan for rebuilding that doesn't include demented hopes of stardom from 30th - to 145th overall picks as sure things or cornerstone players, hopefully they can see that this team is artificially being bumped up in the standings because other teams decided to rebuild and are doing what they have to get star players, go for the top 7 picks at the draft.

 

One bit of a plan can be guessed at by the type of FA's signed, defensive specialists. Over paid with term to take them to 2021, three years and they may be done as they age out.

 

I could hope they stick to a plan that saw them get younger with depth and used the assets they have accumulated and veterans to get top level selections/prospects, like Montreal used to do, trade vets for better picks and players.

 

The question of buyers or sellers should have been answered before the puck was dropped.

 

 

I agree with the main thesis - don't be buyers at the deadline no matter what this year - with a caveat.  If the right deal comes along where we can trade a bunch of spare parts for a star, then go for it.  This team has an incredible number of spare parts and seems to be still collecting them.  Goldobin, Leivo, Pouliot, and a few more are not really the players we want long term and likely not even mid term unless they make some amazing changes to their games soon.  

 

"The Plan" as it stands isn't a bad one.  It has us contending for a playoff spot although likely just missing it.  You certainly don't trade any 1st or 2nd round picks at this stage, but we do have a number of previous 2nd rounders that might have some value for a team who is needing some depth.  But who would you accept back on the trade?  Not an ageing star with questionable future.  Likely the only thing we'd really be willing to accept is a player that nobody in their right mind would be willing to part with.

 

In the end, I guess what I'm really saying is "No trades" unless someone loses their mind out there.  It's happened before.  Or maybe we trade up on draft day for a higher first rounder.

[RogersTowell]

deleted

[oldnews]

 

11 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Hopefully management has a plan for rebuilding that doesn't include demented hopes of stardom from 30th - to 145th overall picks as sure things or cornerstone players, hopefully they can see that this

 

[TheGuardian_]

14 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

Re: the Gretzky II comment ... contrary to popular belief, there are people who saw the potential of just how good Pettersson could be.

 

Of course there's no guarantee, but the evidence was Pettersson breaking SHL records and topping names like Nilsson, Forsberg, Sundin, Naslund, the Sedins, Gradin, Sandstrom, etc. And he was doing it against older players in that league. A lot of people just chose not to see what was right in front of them the entire time. I don't think in some circles it's as much of a surprise as it is confirmation of what we saw in him that others overlooked.

I don't think most pundits expected this kind of play out of him in his draft year, that year he was playing down a league. Maybe Gradin did though.

[TheGuardian_]

20 hours ago, HerrDrFunk said:

It isn't but I'm pretty familiar with where these discussion go and it's always something along the line of "if we don't have a first overall, we'll never be contenders. So if we're not a contender this year, aim for 1st overall". Repeat for the next 3 years and soon you're wasting prime years. 

 

Why write off the season when they're still in the hunt for a wildcard spot? By Bo's own words, having something to play for at this time of the year has given the team a much different attitude than previous years. 

The new draft rules make getting the 1rst overall a less sure thing but being in that position guarantee's a top 4 pick and that is the way the standings have to be looked at, the guaranteed positions, like the Nucks finished 2nd worst and fell to #5, but they were guaranteed a top 5 pick, usually impact players in the top 7 to 10 spots sometimes even star players.

Three years of top 7 picks and the team should have three years of the 2nd best in each position of 900 prospects eligible to be drafted world wide, solid players to star level players.

The alternative is to try to finding players at 13 to 20+ that can kick the door down and those are much rarer over the last 15 years.

Years of fighting for a wild card spot isn't a goal.

[NexusRift]

If we end up in the wildcard race, I believe we do so with little to no tweaks to our lineup. In other words, we'll be sellers either way.

The MDZ to Ducks for Schen and a late pick is pretty much the course we should stay on. And I'm sure that's what's going on.

[canuktravella]

On 1/16/2019 at 12:42 PM, TheGuardian_ said:

Don't need to be like this team is now for 3 more years, just one more season, add the two players (minimum) from this draft and the next and then the team is pretty much done if they pan out.

This is not a bubble team and the top six "core" how many points do they have? Most of the vets are all near or in their 30's and other than Gaudette who was called up only because of injury, none of the other prospects have had a cup of coffee in Vancouver. That is at least 9 more positions needed to be replaced with superior players than the team has now.

At this time they are a hope only, neither has stepped into an NHL games so putting so much faith in them is like saying the 2022 draft pick is going to take the team to the cup, that player hasn't played in the NHL either.

Impatient with OJ, how many years ago was he drafted? How many of his peers have not made the NHL, say top 15 selections? How many have had two major surgeries? How many more years before he is a bust? Or What is a bust? If he is bottom pairing is that a bust?  What position is OJ going to play? Who does he beat out?

As much as Hughes offence looks really good, can he defend against an NHL forward? College is good but it is not even the AHL where players will play "dirty" and only a few college players make a big difference, look at Vesey, for all the hype he is a mid 6 forward and some don't even do that good.

While I don't attribute these players the "gifted" status it is probable they will play in the NHL but until they are they are no more than a fantasy desire. A nice hope though.

 

hughesis is a top 5 prospect not in nhl in the world at moment. as for juolevi injuries happen his nhl debut is delayed i have faith he will be a top 4 dman for us 

 

[Jetliner]

The "plan" should be to trade both edler and tanev. I think we can all agree making the playoffs this year it's pretty farfetched, and even if we do make it there's no point finishing with 1st or 2nd round exit. Keeping Tanev and Edlee to mentor oulevi or Hughes is BS. Same can be done by signing some character and skilled Dman in free agency 

 

Tanev to TO for 1st rounder

Edler to some team for prospect Dman and 3rd rounder

 

Sign a legit Dman July 1st to play with Huges

 

[Rob_Zepp]

23 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

It is for this very reason that more teams tank than ever before, not for sure things but the chance at a sure thing, a fluke where a decent team like Chicago lands another #1 overall.

 

Colorado was just like Vancouver, rebuilding, they got a couple (3) good forwards and one decent but young dman and made the playoffs, they looked great after rebuilding for 4 years. Then the playoffs followed by another rebuild of 3+ ongoing yet for a total of 8 + years and counting just for the sake of one playoff round. Edmonton ditto. Is this the plan to follow? A playoff game at any expense? At the cost of the future?

 

On the back of a single rookie that would be targeted, in playoff games, not like these nice regular season games. So many forget what playoff games are like, 100 hits in one game, 100. Do you think they didn't go after the best players on the other team? Why did Wilson get a big raise in pay? Why are a lot of teams rumoured to want Ferland you know the kid that ran the Canucks out of the rink all by himself, in the last one and done.

 

Playoffs are not regular season games, the only regular season in the playoffs is "open" season and the Canucks just don't have enough to stop Ovechkin from running over Pettersson. Is that what posters want? Have the kid get destroyed, the target, the kid that the offence counts on, that every team knows, without him the Nucks are XX

 

Lot to agree with here.

[KKnight]

This team is at a stage where they can buy and sell. Without giving up a mass quantity of picks.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

Realistically, we are probably going to stand pat at the deadline.  We aren't in a position to buy, and don't have much to sell.

Moving MDZ wasn't a big thing in itself, but it means that we only have 3 left D remaining on the big club, with Juolevi and Sautner injured long term on the farm, so no credible call-ups.  The gap between the trade deadline and when we could sign and activate Hughes means that we aren't moving any of Pouliot, Hutton or Edler without getting another NHL-capable LD back.  Edler is the only one who would be a significant upgrade for a contending team, but he won't waive as long as there is talk of re-signing him.  Our depth on the right side isn't much better.  Bottom line:  we can't move a D without getting another one back, which cuts into the value of any futures we might get for Edler, Tanev or Gudbranson, our only D who other teams might view as upgrades.

Forwards are a different story, but even then, the chances of a big move are slim.  Goldy and Schaller aren't worth much at this point, Green likes Granlund too much, and Baer is too valuable.  Sutter is the one replaceable guy who could bring a decent return, but he still has some term and so can't be just a rental for a cup run, which is what would make the most sense to a buyer. 

Maybe JB gets creative and maybe there's a hockey deal out there, so never say never.  But we aren't set up very well for a classic deadline deal. 

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

Sellers unless you can deal spare parts for young immediate help ala players of the ilk like Andre Burakovsky, Brett Ritchie, Jack Roslovic, Nathan Beaulieu.  Or those kind of players.  Or even players like Tyler Motte we got from the Vanek deal.

 

Accumulate the picks and assets hoping some of them pan out as we continue to assemble our core team.

[TheGuardian_]

31 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Realistically, we are probably going to stand pat at the deadline.  We aren't in a position to buy, and don't have much to sell.

Moving MDZ wasn't a big thing in itself, but it means that we only have 3 left D remaining on the big club, with Juolevi and Sautner injured long term on the farm, so no credible call-ups.  The gap between the trade deadline and when we could sign and activate Hughes means that we aren't moving any of Pouliot, Hutton or Edler without getting another NHL-capable LD back.  Edler is the only one who would be a significant upgrade for a contending team, but he won't waive as long as there is talk of re-signing him.  Our depth on the right side isn't much better.  Bottom line:  we can't move a D without getting another one back, which cuts into the value of any futures we might get for Edler, Tanev or Gudbranson, our only D who other teams might view as upgrades.

Forwards are a different story, but even then, the chances of a big move are slim.  Goldy and Schaller aren't worth much at this point, Green likes Granlund too much, and Baer is too valuable.  Sutter is the one replaceable guy who could bring a decent return, but he still has some term and so can't be just a rental for a cup run, which is what would make the most sense to a buyer. 

Maybe JB gets creative and maybe there's a hockey deal out there, so never say never.  But we aren't set up very well for a classic deadline deal. 

Assets to sell, I have heard that Utica has many prospects sitting out, not enough roster spots for all of them so they aren't getting a ton of icetime. That is at best 2nd hand information but if so then the team would have at least 7 prospects they could dangle and teams looking for a quick rebuild/re-tool might be willing to trade picks for "time", the time it may take to sort out a prospect.

 

I thought about the MDZ move and I guess there is two aspects to the trade, one for MDZ and the other is negative, they never planned on prospects making the team and have too many over paid vets. You now they retained money on this deal, this retention could handcuff them AGAIN at the TDL, that ability to retain could have improved a pick considerably.

 

Teams trading for any of the above mentioned dmen might not just be looking for an upgrade, maybe just depth. Guddy has had his best showing once the whistles are in the  pockets but his salary makes him unlikely to be traded without retention or taking a bad contract back.

 

Sounds like Edmonton wants JV and either Edler or Tanev, that could be interesting, adding two of the three would put them in the show. The return, JP and 2020 1rst.

 

As far as the Canucks defense would go, next year bring back Tryamkin, even in a bottom six role he has an impact, he did more "standing up" for teammates than any others and EP could use a little of that., Wasn't any of those other great prospects drafted supposed to be winners? Maybe even OJ skates with the big team.

 

The next month, up to the TDL is a time for leadership from management, strong leadership, rebuild for the future or buy bandaids for the present.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

5 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Teams trading for any of the above mentioned dmen might not just be looking for an upgrade, maybe just depth. Guddy has had his best showing once the whistles are in the  pockets but his salary makes him unlikely to be traded without retention or taking a bad contract back.

For sure many teams just look for depth at the trade deadline.  But my point was that we can't easily give up a depth D for futures and still field an NHL lineup ourselves.  Maybe on the right side, though, if we were willing to call up Schenn. 

[TheGuardian_]

1 minute ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

For sure many teams just look for depth at the trade deadline.  But my point was that we can't easily give up a depth D for futures and still field an NHL lineup ourselves.  Maybe on the right side, though, if we were willing to call up Schenn. 

There are at least 30 FA dmen that are right handed this year. Some may be re-signed but that is the number of contracts expiring.

 

As far as depth on defence, I know things look better but this team has/is not that good, there will be many dmen that could be an upgrade, I know a lot of folks didn't like MDZ for some reason, but he wasn't all that bad, he could put out over 20 minutes a game, if Pouliot does that it isn't working out so good.

 

Lose Tanev, bring back Groot, lose Edler and over pay Trouba or Meyers, trade and re-sign Edler AND over pay Trouba or Meyers and bring back Groot and still trade Tanev, with the players playing D on this team right now, they are replaceable, it isn't like they would be losing Doughty or Karlsson or Burns or …..

 

I am really concerned that JB is more interested in keeping his job by making it to the playoffs than winning the cup, making the playoffs is easy, half the teams do it every year. With only one more year on his contract that has to be a concern.

 

The media would love a playoff series, they get paid more money for the shows and then they have mountains of criticism for the team failing the next 5+ years. Who finishes ahead, LV, Seattle or Vancouver? Follow some of other teams recent rebuild histories and successes, cup champs etc, the last 18 years, draft a player, make the show, hope for another appearance for 3 years, tear down and rebuild again once fan support starts lagging, middle of the road acceptance. TO for ever. Hell Vancouver for ever, make the show every 12 years or so and spend 10 years rebuilding.