theo5789 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 1 minute ago, gurn said: maybe, but my dyslexia makes charts and lists an incredibly aggravating exercise. I just find it hard to believe that Delorme was so bad,as he lasted as chief scout for over a decade., and still remains on the payroll. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Delorme "Delorme was born in North Battleford, but grew up in Cochin, Saskatchewan. Though Delorme retired from the NHL in 1985, he has remained on the Vancouver Canucks staff for over 20 years as a scout and was appointed chief amateur scout in 2000.[1] It happens when the team's budget doesn't and goals don't reflect the importance of scouting and development. Delorme has made some good picks, but it's clear that when the goal posts shifted towards drafting being extremely important, the results changed including Delorme's position. I apologize for my comment, but it's just a demonstration that people do need to rely on others and given a top position that requires more duties, it's tougher to do the nitty gritty work without recommendation to deem it worthy. The information you're requesting is likely impossible to find unless you work for the Canuck organization in a high management role and even then I doubt they keep decades of records of draft lists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 55 minutes ago, gurn said: Perhaps, but Gillis didn't strike me as a guy that would take much input from others. As I said without the lists who knows for sure. I'd like to see someone compare the Central Scouting lists of bpa when the Canucks drafted, and compare to who the Canucks actually picked. I think Gillis said in an interview that his scouts did most of the work on the draft, which I assume to be the case with every GM. There was a Montreal draft video and I don't even think Bergevin was in it until the draft day portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, gurn said: Perhaps, but Gillis didn't strike me as a guy that would take much input from others. As I said without the lists who knows for sure. I'd like to see someone compare the Central Scouting lists of bpa when the Canucks drafted, and compare to who the Canucks actually picked. Gillis says only in the 1st round. Btw Gillis had already demoted Delorme in summer 2012 and appointed Eric Crawford to oversea scouting. Delorme retained his title and the change was only noticed several months after it occurred. Crawford left after the 2015 draft - he was on stage at the Boeser draft and is now working for Montreal as director of pro scouting. A couple of years back ici-radio Canada did that for Montreal where they just followed the NHL Central Scouting final draft rankings but using hindsight to select the best player between the NA list and the Euro list. Over 10 years they would have had over 600 NHL games more and over 450pts just following the central scouting lists. All rounds. This is just 1st round picks: Best NA Best Euro 2008 10th Hodgson Kyle Beach (4th) Kirill Petrov (2nd) 2009 22nd Schroeder Schroeder (5th) Tim Erixon (5th) 2010 --- 2011 29th Jensen Ty Rattie (17th) Dmitri Jaskin (5th) 2012 26th Gaunce Gaunce (13th) Sebastian Collberg (3rd) 2013 9th Horvat Shinkaruk (6th) Nichushkin (2nd) 24th Shinkaruk Shinkaruk (6th) Jacob de la Rose (7th) --------- 2014 6th Virtanen Virtanen (6th) Kapanen (1st) 23rd McCann McCann (10th) Pastrnak (5th) Edited August 24, 2019 by mll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, theo5789 said: Maybe because Delorme is a d*ck and didn't give anyone else any credit as he was trying to impress his new boss lol. I don't know, maybe he was the one, but hard to imagine he just knew to go to some small tournament to see a 14 year old Pettersson without some influence. I don't agree a lot with Timrafan, but I can see some truth here. If Delorme had such foresight, maybe he would've still been head scout rather than demoted and Brackett promoted. It's like how Brackett gets a lot of credit now for our drafting but he has a team of scouts and no one knows which ones have pointed things out to Brackett. So I could see a scout telling Delorme about Pettersson and Delorme taking a look and relaying it to Benning because Delorme maybe did think there was something there. This is all speculation, but there's a reason why there's a team of scouts. Benning is the one who said Delorme was really pushing for him. How does that translate to Delorme was a dick that wanted to hog the credit? I'm not the biggest Delorme fan. And again I fail to see why Benning would credit him with the find if it was untrue... There is literally zero benefit to ignore credit to other staff and give it to Delorme... If it was at the advise of another staff member he would have said as much... Edited August 24, 2019 by canuck73_3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 10 hours ago, Timråfan said: Please, enlighten me wich tournament... It's you that provided two different years Delorme(or anyone close to Benning) thought he was interesting. Was it at 14 or 17? IIRC it was the Ivan Hlinka or a similar type tournament to scout other players, he wasn't there on a hunch that Pettersson was the guy to see. Just that he stood out from the pack... I’ve provided an article and quotes but of course neither suit your anti Canuck bias so they're not good enough keep trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: Benning is the one who said Delorme was really pushing for him. How does that translate to Delorme was a dick that wanted to hog the credit? I'm not the biggest Delorme fan. And again I fail to see why Benning would credit him with the find if it was untrue... I think you're missing the point, Delorme was the head scout and likely brought it up to Benning. The point here is that there were likely other scouts in play that brought it to Delorme's attention in the first place to pass on the message to Benning. We praise Benning for his drafting, but just as much credit would go towards the entire scouting team to give Benning an effective resource to pick the best possible player. The comment about him being a dick was simply a joke, but Benning may simply be giving Delorme and those involved the credit and isn't going to name every person involved. Benning could've easily just took in all the praise for finding a gem in Pettersson. I'm sure if this was asked of Delorme, he would credit the Swedish scouts, if not then he's a dick. I highly doubt that Delorme was exploring the world for talent on his own from just gut feeling and if he did, then you'd think his track record would be much better from all the work he would've put in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: IIRC it was the Ivan Hlinka or a similar type tournament to scout other players, he wasn't there on a hunch that Pettersson was the guy to see. Just that he stood out from the pack... I’ve provided an article and quotes but of course neither suit your anti Canuck bias so they're not good enough keep trolling. Isn't the Hlinka tournament for 17-18 year olds? How did Delorme discover him as a 14 year old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 1 minute ago, theo5789 said: I think you're missing the point, Delorme was the head scout and likely brought it up to Benning. The point here is that there were likely other scouts in play that brought it to Delorme's attention in the first place to pass on the message to Benning. We praise Benning for his drafting, but just as much credit would go towards the entire scouting team to give Benning an effective resource to pick the best possible player. The comment about him being a dick was simply a joke, but Benning may simply be giving Delorme and those involved the credit and isn't going to name every person involved. Benning could've easily just took in all the praise for finding a gem in Pettersson. I'm sure if this was asked of Delorme, he would credit the Swedish scouts, if not then he's a dick. I highly doubt that Delorme was exploring the world for talent on his own from just gut feeling and if he did, then you'd think his track record would be much better from all the work he would've put in. It might be, it might not be but Benning credits and singles out Delorme. And seriously I'm not even the biggest fan of Delorme’s scouting. But again if it was at the guidance of European scouts he would have added as much to that credit, it was Delorme and our European scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, theo5789 said: Isn't the Hlinka tournament for 17-18 year olds? How did Delorme discover him as a 14 year old? Because they watched him at more than one tournament note I said similar in there. The strong push for him started as he got to around 17 but they noticed him earlier. The article I posted noted that. Edited August 24, 2019 by canuck73_3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said: It might be, it might not be but Benning credits and singles out Delorme. And seriously I'm not even the biggest fan of Delorme’s scouting. But again if it was at the guidance of European scouts he would have added as much to that credit, it was Delorme and our European scouts. I'm not discrediting Delorme in this case (other than his track record), but Timrafan is just trying to credit the Swedish scout that likely pointed out that EP is someone that Delorme should have a closer look at. I don't agree with alot he says, but I think it's fair to suggest that there likely was some influence here beyond Delorme simply going on a whim to see this kid as a 14 year old. Curious to hear what Delorme would say if he was asked though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: Because they watched him at more than one tournament note I said similar in there. The strong push for him started as he got to around 17 but they noticed him earlier. The article I posted noted that. It's very possible that they were there for another reason and wanted to check out some other games in the area and happened to spot him. But again, Delorme likely had a team with him and some guys that knew the local tournaments. Delorme was simply the man in charge at the time. Brackett gets a lot of the credit now as well, but his team is also just as important. Maybe there isn't one person that singlehandedly scouted EP his entire career to this point, so it's easier to just give credit to the top guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, theo5789 said: I'm not discrediting Delorme in this case (other than his track record), but Timrafan is just trying to credit the Swedish scout that likely pointed out that EP is someone that Delorme should have a closer look at. I don't agree with alot he says, but I think it's fair to suggest that there likely was some influence here beyond Delorme simply going on a whim to see this kid as a 14 year old. Curious to hear what Delorme would say if he was asked though. I don't get why this is so hard to comprehend, he wasn't there to scout Pettersson, just that Delorme was at a tournament when Pettersson was around 14 and he stood out. As he improved and got older Delorme then pushed to keep an eye on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 Just now, theo5789 said: It's very possible that they were there for another reason and wanted to check out some other games in the area and happened to spot him. But again, Delorme likely had a team with him and some guys that knew the local tournaments. Delorme was simply the man in charge at the time. Brackett gets a lot of the credit now as well, but his team is also just as important. Maybe there isn't one person that singlehandedly scouted EP his entire career to this point, so it's easier to just give credit to the top guy. Again then Benning would have said Delorme and our scout staff, not just Delorme... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: Again then Benning would have said Delorme and our scout staff, not just Delorme... 3 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: I don't get why this is so hard to comprehend, he wasn't there to scout Pettersson, just that Delorme was at a tournament when Pettersson was around 14 and he stood out. As he improved and got older Delorme then pushed to keep an eye on him. Guess we should just first the Swedish scouts. Useless bunch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 Just now, theo5789 said: Guess we should just first the Swedish scouts. Useless bunch. Not saying that either, maybe they were keyed in on targeted players... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: Not saying that either, maybe they were keyed in on targeted players... I would think it's the other way around. The scouts view a wider range and the higher up the chain, the view gets narrower and becomes more targetted through the suggestion of the scouts. It's unlikely management assigns a scout to look at targetted players because how would management know of those players in the first place. Maybe Delorme took the credit because he never credited anyone else, so who else was Benning suppose to say. It was an interview, not an acceptance speech. Should he thank Delorme's parents for raising him to be the scout he was to discover EP? Delorme reported to Benning (at the time) and unless he was told further, that's the extent of how he found out about EP. Why credit all of the scouts for finding EP, when some of those scouts has no part in doing so. Someone would need to ask Delorme the question and see if he credits someone else or if he was truly the one that did discover him. If it was, then good on him, but I believe the scouts did the dirty work and get the least credit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 2 hours ago, theo5789 said: He was the chief amateur scout from 2000 to 2014. I guess just look at the drafting in that period. Unless you think the GMs during his tenure often went away from what their appointed chief scout had to say, then it's safe to say most were heavily influenced by his viewpoint. You can look at the difference after 2015 when Brackett took over. I don't have all the inside information on this, but the results really speak for themselves. He had some acceptable drafts early on then. Bieksa, Kesler, Hansen, Schneider, Edler, Raymond, Grabner, Hodgson, Bourdon... it just seems to really dry up during the Gillis years. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: He had some acceptable drafts early on then. Bieksa, Kesler, Hansen, Schneider, Edler, Raymond, Grabner, Hodgson, Bourdon... it just seems to really dry up during the Gillis years. Fair enough which likely is the reason why he's had his job for so long, but at the same time, not a great body of work there for the 14 years he's been there. I do know that Gradin was at least praised for the Edler pick. Just a demonstration of how his team of scouts played an integral role. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Attila Umbrus said: Good lord, just stop it already. We all get that you don't like our current management...but you don't have anything new to add to your argument, you repeat things over and over. We get it, ok! If you had some new original thoughts to this then great discuss away...but you don't, it's just the same thing over and over.... I have no problems with you discussing your thoughts and opinions on here, we are all allowed to do that. But it's all you talk about. Can you diversify yourself a bit and talk about something else?? Please, when you say that to all that say the same about par example Loui I might listen to you but I haven't seen anyone doing that. Just a few fans that think it's ok to lecture me because I critisize Bennings handling of interviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said: IIRC it was the Ivan Hlinka or a similar type tournament to scout other players, he wasn't there on a hunch that Pettersson was the guy to see. Just that he stood out from the pack... I’ve provided an article and quotes but of course neither suit your anti Canuck bias so they're not good enough keep trolling. What anti Canuck bias? When did Benning become mr Canuck? The linc you provided didn't say much. Probably did Inge hear the rumour about a boy from Ånge that did amazing stuff. Then he watched him and reported back to either Gradin or Delorme. Then, eventually, Delorme managed to see Petey and report back to Benning. But when did Delorme see Petey? At 14 or 17? Edited August 24, 2019 by Timråfan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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