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The Utica crisis, and the inability to retain/ develope our top end draft picks


cuporbust

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Hey guys  

 

Yes , i do believe we have a situation with our farm system and its development,  or lack there of , of the top end prospects we have so much pride in constantly mentioning as a Jim Bennings success story. 

 

Now the issue if losing and not developing our prospects goes beyond utica as we saw in Nikita Tryamkins departure from the team. 

 

I personally dont care if they have to stroke ego s and make babysit these guys to keep them here. Right or wrong,  we no longer have the services of a top end d prospect , and i believe that could have been avoided . 

 

Here is an article on the concerns 

 

PROVINCE :

In an interesting bit of timing, Utica Comets GM Ryan Johnson found himself in Vancouver around the NHL trade deadline when the long-simmering frustration of Canucks fans erupted into something approaching mass outrage. The trigger point seemed to be the abrupt trading of Jonathan Dahlen, until recently considered a core piece in the NHL’s team rebuild but, in reality, the dissatisfaction with the Canucks’ development plan stretches farther back. The faithful believe they were promised results. They look at a Canucks lineup with a substandard talent level and a Comets team which has been unable to improve that lineup and feel the promise has been broken. The resulting anger spilled over to the public airwaves and Johnson wants the faithful to know he feels their pain. But while he’s grateful for the limitless offers of free advice he’s been given, he would point out that turning star juniors into NHL-ready players is a complicated process. A complicated and tedious process. “Most of our players were 80-, 90-point guys in junior but they’re not going to be 80-, 90-point guys in the NHL,” Johnson said over the phone. “So what are they going to be in the NHL? That’s something they have to figure out and something we have to help them with. “We have a very clear understanding of what it takes to play in the NHL. The details, the consistency, the play at both ends of the ice. We have to see the progression. If we’re not sharpening those details, we’re doing an injustice to the player.” Which is something Canucks fans don’t want to hear, but that’s the reality of the job in Utica. Somewhere between the failings of the parent club and the Comets’ inability to supply ready-made solutions, the Canucks’ AHL affiliate has come under fire over the last couple of months. The reasoning goes that Johnson and Comets head coach Trent Cull have been provided the raw material in prospects like Dahlen, Kole Lind and Jonah Gadjovich but there have been few signs of their progress.

 

Yes, Zack MacEwen has had something of a breakout year in his second season as a pro, but Dahlen has now been traded for marginal prospect Linus Karlsson and Lind and Gadjovich, both second-rounders in the 2017-draft, have been healthy scratches throughout the year and both sit with just two goals. Canucks fans — at least the reasonable ones, and we’re here assuming there is such an animal — might not have expected huge seasons out of Lind and Gadjovich but they expected more than two goals by the first week of March. So what gives? “Kole Lind will be the first to tell you how hard this step is,” Johnson said. “We’re working consistently on the details of Kole’s game. He has to be first on the forecheck. He has to play the body. This is a normal first step. “He’s playing every night. The opportunity is there.” Now, all this might sound like a rationalization from Johnson but, as luck would have it, your agent was on a radio show with former Canucks winger Chris Higgins when this subject was brought up. Higgins was the Canadiens’ first-round pick, 14th overall, in 2002 and the ECAC player of the year when he turned pro. He then ground out a 711-game NHL career, not because of his prolific offensive production but because he found a way to stay relevant.

 

It was instructive, in fact, listening to Higgins talk about how he worked on his skating after he signed with the Habs, how he became an adept penalty-killer, how he learned the subtle art of the soft dump-in and taking pucks cleanly off the boards. You know, the details. Higgins was never a star, but he was a productive player who enjoyed NHL paycheques and the NHL life for 12 seasons, and if it was that easy, more would do it. Every drafted player, of course, wants to become a star; but of the NHL’s top 10 scorers, six were taken within the first three picks of the draft and 21 of the top 30 scorers were taken in the first 10. These are the chosen ones, the players whose talent and skill set allows them to be front-liners in the world’s best league. But the vast majority of NHLers are worker bees, players who’ve studied their game and their situation and found a way. That’s what Higgins did and it’s Johnson’s goal to turn a couple of the Comets into those kind of players. That’s how he’ll measure success. That would also be a massive boost for the Canucks. “If you look at the younger players, the second-year guys, MacEwen, (defencemen Guillaume) Brisebois are continuing to develop,” Johnson said. “Our first-year guys have come a long way. It’s an overwhelming step. But our guys have continued to make good strides. “We have measurables we look at every month and if we don’t see it, we address it.”

 

And if that sounds like detailed work, that’s the point.

 

 

 

Palmu, tryamkin , and now dahlin . Three recent disgruntled top end prospects with how we treat them. 

 

 

Thoughts 

 

 

What needs to happen? 

 

 

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Crisis?  What Crisis?

Tryamkin had nothing to do with the Utica situation.  Palmu was never a "top end" prospect and it's not surprising he had trouble cracking the lineup there.  Dahlen has been discussed to death elsewhere, but given the contradictory accounts that have come out from his side of the equation, that's where the problem seems to lie.

Beware of click-bait, stay calm and carry on.

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1 minute ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Crisis?  What Crisis?

Tryamkin had nothing to do with the Utica situation.  Palmu was never a "top end" prospect and it's not surprising he had trouble cracking the lineup there.  Dahlen has been discussed to death elsewhere, but given the contradictory accounts that have come out from his side of the equation, that's where the problem seems to lie.

Beware of click-bait, stay calm and carry on.

U obviously didn't read anything so .....

 

I said tryamkin had nothing to do with utica . Hard to comment on a post from someone that didnt read the original post. 

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22 minutes ago, cuporbust said:

 

 

 

What needs to happen? 

 

 

None of those 3 are top end prospects. Dahlen is a 2nd rounder with some skill; Plamu is a &^@#ing late 6th rounder for crying out loud and Tryamkin didn't even go to the AHL because his contract to come over allowed him the ability to say no. His issue was here and his wife not liking it by several accounts. So how is that about Utica?

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The Canucks want to develop players who can play as much of a full game as possible. When they draft players that were very offensively minded players in Junior, there is a process to teach them the game without the puck in the offensive zone, and defensive play in all zones.

 

Jake took time - he is still trying to get it, but the difference in his game (prior to his recent injury) compared to 12, 18, 24 months ago is very noticeable. Is there more there? Probably....

 

Management will not "gift" young players much at all - they do not like "kids" who feel "entitled" -  you have to work for it and earn it. You have to show that you know there is more required to play at the AHL/NHL level, and show mental and physical determination to learn and achieve it. It's why Goldy sits in the press box sometimes...the puck gets turned over in the offensive zone, turn around, move your butt back to the D-Zone, and find your man WHILE you are moving back.... Goldy sometimes is slow to respond to playing D, or skates back into the zone and then thinks "who is my man, where is he?"...By the time he figures it out, it is often too late

 

Did Try show something in the games he played? Yes he did - he showed that there was potential to be an everyday NHL player with more development. What he did not show was that he should be a top 4 dman at that time.  IMHO, Try felt "entitled" to be higher in the roster, and sulked. 

 

What needs to happen? If anything, ensuring the scouts, management etc are doing as much as possible to assess the mental determination of the players they are considering, and not just their on-ice skill. 

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1 minute ago, Gnarcore said:

None of those 3 are top end prospects. Dahlen is a 2nd rounder with some skill; Plamu is a &^@#ing late 6th rounder for crying out loud and Tryamkin didn't even go to the AHL because his contract to come over allowed him the ability to say no. His issue was here and his wife not liking it by several accounts. So how is that about Utica?

3000+ posts and you still quote that huge block? come on man lol

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6 minutes ago, cuporbust said:

U obviously didn't read anything so .....

 

I said tryamkin had nothing to do with utica . Hard to comment on a post from someone that didnt read the original post. 

Actually I did read it.  When you lump things together that arguably aren't related, people may try to separate them like I did.  The failure to retain Tryamkin was definitely a setback, but not exactly a failure of our development system.

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I'm not concerned, recency bias of Boeser, Pettersson, jumping right into the NHL has created an expectation that all our prospects will light their respective leagues on fire and jump right into success.  Due to our need to promote top draft picks early, Utica has primarily been flush with mid to late round draft picks, however, people still have the same expectation that they are top prospects and should produce/develop the same as top prospects.

 

Reality is, development is not a linear process.  Players will stall, regress, or suffer setbacks.  But because of recency bias, media and fans make the assumption that everyone should develop at the same rate as the players who are being successful right now. 

 

If people actually follow Utica consistently, they would know now that Trent Cull has slowly entrusted Lind and Gadjovich - Lind playing in the final minutes to protect a lead, and Gadjovich moving up the lineup and was even on the first line with Brendan Gaunce and Tom Pyatt this past weekend.  Trent Cull and RJ have done a great job so far.  People also forget that Juolevi literally was on their first pairing Defense before he got hurt and was playing all situations. Brisebois has been a mainstay this whole year, and Demko has been their saving grace for also 2 seasons now. 

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A few days ago I started a thread about Utica development. It included a poll. Of the people who responded, about 55% said Utica development was "meeting reasonable expectations" and 36% said it was "disappointing". A few people said it was actually "good".

 

In comments about Utica and various other topics the word "fine" come up a lot as in "Lind will be fine" or "Utica is fine". I think that "fine" might be the most over-used word on CDC.

 

Over the past four years years (including this year), the Canucks have the worst cumulative record in the NHL. In my opinion that is not "fine". Yes, they were good for a long stretch before that and did not have high draft picks, but they never won a Cup. And other teams were also good in that period but did not fall as far and are further along now.

 

One of the problems is development. Since Day 1 Benning has emphasized "drafting and development". The drafting has been quite good, although, in my view, Benning made a mistake in not retaining and acquiring draft picks and playing to his (or Judd Brackett's) strength, but the actual picks have overall, exceeded the expected value. But development has been a problem.

 

Johnson exaggerates the problem in transitioning to Utica. League comparisons have been studied a lot and league adjustment factors are well known. Lind and Gadjovich have significantly underperformed what you would expect for guys with their track record. And obviously there were issues with Dahlen and Palmu. In my view, no skater who has spent significant time in the Utica in the past two years has actually helped the Canucks in the sense of the moving the dial. (I am not counting Gaudette, who has spent most of the season on the Canucks.).

 

I think that one problem is that the Utica model seems to be -- first you have to be a grinder before you can provide offense. That works for some guys, but if that is your model, you are going to end up with a  lot of grinders and not many scorers.

 

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From Corey Pronman's prospect Q&A at The Athletic (LINK - requires subscription though):

 

Q: Hi Corey, are you surprised that Vancouver traded Dahlen after only 1 year in nord-america (sic)

A: No. He's nothing special.

 

He's been traded because he's nothing special. Most prospects chosen outside of the first round (heck, outside of the top-10) are nothing special. When some don't pan out, it's not a crisis - it's routine.

 

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22 and younger AHL & Reserve List this year, for perspective. 

 

Daheln

Palmu

Lind

Jasek

MacEwen

Gadjovich

Juolevi

Eliot

Chatfield

Hughes

Karlsson

Brassard

Lockwood

Madden

Rathbone

Woo

Utenen

Theissen

 

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3 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

22 and younger AHL & Reserve List this year, for perspective. 

 

Daheln

Palmu

Lind

Jasek

MacEwen

Gadjovich

Juolevi

Eliot

Chatfield

Hughes

Karlsson

Brassard

Lockwood

Madden

Rathbone

Woo

Utenen

Theissen

 

Chances are only 3-4 of these will realistically have NHL careers

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6 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

22 and younger AHL & Reserve List this year, for perspective. 

 

Daheln

Palmu

Lind

Jasek

MacEwen

Gadjovich

Juolevi

Eliot

Chatfield

Hughes

Karlsson

Brassard

Lockwood

Madden

Rathbone

Woo

Utenen

Theissen

 

I don't know if there is or isn't a problem in Utica developing our prospects.  However, I do see a problem with our number of prospects.  We traded away a lot of second and third round picks recently, who could be pushing for spots on our current Canuck's roster.  Maybe the problem in Utica is JB trading away so many second and third round picks to fill an age gap here, so now there is an age gap down there?  

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There's already about 50 threads (redundant) on this and it's entirely based on desperate, click bait, media hit pieces because a medium shot and a long, LONG shot prospect had (unsurprisingly) minor issues :frantic:

 

:picard:

 

 

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