JB has thrown away far too many assets - needs to be replaced as GM

[kanucks25]

39 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

That’s a pretty rich statement considering the long shot odds of selling your assets and tanking for lottery picks / accumulating long shot depth picks.

And trading those picks for players that other teams have already given up on is more likely to lead to success?

 

What am I talking about, of course it is, I mean look at all the success we've had.

 

What a crock.

Edited March 20, 2019 by kanucks25

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

And trading those picks for players that other teams have already given up on is more likely to lead to success?

 

What am I talking about, of course it is, I mean look at all the success we've had.

 

What a crock.

Why would a mid rebuild team have 'success' (presumably of the points/standings variety)?

 

You can't seem to decide whether you're coming or going.

[kanucks25]

35 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Why would a mid rebuild team have 'success' (presumably of the points/standings variety)?

 

You can't seem to decide whether you're coming or going.

Those trades were made simply to turn the team around quicker than a full rebuild would.

 

We are nowhere close to a "quick turnaround", those assets were wasted on a completely foolish plan that was doomed from the start.

[ilduce39]

Just now, kanucks25 said:

And trading those picks for players that other teams have already given up on is more likely to lead to success?

 

What am I talking about, of course it is, I mean look at all the success we've had.

 

What a crock.

What “success” would have happened otherwise?  We can see the odds there, too. With the 2nds JB moved out we’d be lucky to land a (healthy) Baertschi.  Let alone NHL’ers in Gudbranson and Sutter. Those 3 were all first rounders for a reason.  

 

The false narrative you're pushing is that a championship team has slipped through our fingers because JB failed to stockpile draft picks or moved some out.  It’s a lie.  

[smokes]

Jim should not be fired. He should hire an assistant GM who might be better at trade negotiations but he's done more good than bad so far. Plus just the aquisition of Pettersson alone buys him a couple of more years in my books.

[aGENT]

27 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Name a team that has won without their own drafted depth playing key roles.

 

The Penguins are not a good example, at least not their recent Cups. Their first one was probably the closest thing as it was a weird team built largely on older veterans that were brought in (and even then they still had Letang, Scuderi, Orpik and Talbot playing important role). However, this would still be considered the outlier in the group.

That's simply not my argument. I can't decide if you guys are willfully blind to these things or... 

 

Nobody's saying that you don't need solid depth/role players to win a cup. My argument is that the difference between having 12 depth/role players you managed to mine from later picks vs 15 (if we'd only had more picks!!! ) is not going to be the difference between cup contender and not cup contender. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE PLAYERS YOU TAKE IN THE FIRST ROUND AND PRIMARILY THE ONES YOU DRAFTED EARLIER, TOP-15'ISH.

 

17 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

You don't have to trade draft picks to acquire said "pros".

 

Not to mention Benning inherited quite a few and retained many in his first few years, still has a couple remaining in Edler and Tanev.

 

Let guys like Richardson, Matthias and Hamhuis walk for nothing.

There are no hard and fast rules.

 

16 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Basing a plan around an outlier is like choosing "professional lottery winner" as a career.

 

You might get lucky but chances are it's going to lead to failure.

Again, still missing actually my point but...Say's the guy who wants to base his plan around outlier late picks and tanking to win the lottery.

[kanucks25]

35 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

With the 2nds JB moved out we’d be lucky to land a (healthy) Baertschi..  

Baertschi was a win, yes, but he alone does not negate all the losses.

 

36 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Those 3 were all first rounders for a reason.  

Should we go sign Yakupov? Or trade a 2nd for G. Reinhart or Siemens? They were drafted high for a reason right?

 

39 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

The false narrative you're pushing is that a championship team has slipped through our fingers because JB failed to stockpile draft picks or moved some out.  It’s a lie.  

Not saying we would have a championship team otherwise.

 

What I'm saying is that it's almost impossible to win a Stanley Cup and no team, especially one in our position, can afford to waste assets (especially those that are crucial in a hard salary cap league) and except to come out on the other side as a perennial elite contender. Being a tire-fire and drafting high for 5 years in a row doesn't automatically make you a true contender.

[Metal Face Doom]

You should change the title of the thread.  You can question the free agent signings but Benning throwing away assets is false.  Our prospect pool has never been better.  

[kanucks25]

41 minutes ago, aGENT said:

That's simply not my argument. I can't decide if you guys are willfully blind to these things or... ery.

You're arguing that top picks are the most important. I'm saying that's not true, because pretty much every Cup winner has had vital contributions from their non top draft picks, they wouldn't have won without them. You need both, and in that sense, yes an extra Gaudette or Demko might help push you farther than a team you're neck and neck with.

 

41 minutes ago, aGENT said:

There are no hard and fast rules.

No idea what this means or how this is in any way a rebuttal to what I said lol.

 

41 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Again, still missing actually my point but...Say's the guy who wants to base his plan around outlier late picks and tanking to win the lottery.

Drafting is the best way to build a team in a salary cap league. That's not an outlier, that's the strategy that gives you the highest probability of success.

 

The draft in itself, yes it is like a lottery. That's why it's best to have as many lottery tickets as possible.

Edited March 20, 2019 by kanucks25

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

You're arguing that top picks are the most important. I'm saying that's not true, because pretty much every Cup winner has had vital contributions from their non top draft picks, they wouldn't have won without them. You need both, and in that sense, yes an extra Gaudette or Demko might help push you farther than a team you're neck and neck with.

 

No idea what this means or how this is in any way a rebuttal to what I said lol.

 

Drafting is the best way to build a team in a salary cap league. That's not an outlier, that's the strategy that gives you the highest probability of success.

 

The draft in itself, yes it is like a lottery. That's why it's best to have as many lottery tickets as possible.

So you once again, entirely ignore my actual point to keep on arguing... yup, done here.

[-DLC-]

3 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Those trades were made simply to turn the team around quicker than a full rebuild would.

 

We are nowhere close to a "quick turnaround", those assets were wasted on a completely foolish plan that was doomed from the start.

That's YOUR narrative.  

 

Teams have ever changing needs and sometimes players leave because they're no longer needed, not always because they're has beens and wash outs that we adopt from the shelter.  There ARE no guarantees.  And funny how, when we let players go, they're suddenly glaring mistakes and we give up too early, but other teams don't?  There are many things that factor in to why players come/go, not just the ones that fit your argument. 

 

Quote

You don't have to trade draft picks to acquire said "pros".

 

Not to mention Benning inherited quite a few and retained many in his first few years, still has a couple remaining in Edler and Tanev.

 

Let guys like Richardson, Matthias and Hamhuis walk for nothing.

You seem to have this "let them walk" as if these players have NO say in the matter?  Like many don't want to move on or see what else they fetch?  Or, possibly and as stated above, just aren't fitting into what we need at the time?  Based on their age, health, or maybe what they are asking for in relation to what we feel they're worth?

Hindsight.  That's what you use to determine make or break that these guys don't have the luxury of.  ALL GM's will have hits and misses.  

 

And quit sharing fake news, like we've been "the worst" for the past 4 years.  It simply isn't true.  

 

 

[Darius]

6 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

You're arguing that top picks are the most important. I'm saying that's not true, because pretty much every Cup winner has had vital contributions from their non top draft picks

you could probably swap out those players and still be successful.  Look at LA ...the core 4 of players...you think they couldnt have won without Dwight King, Martinez and Kyle Clifford?  Those top tier core 4 players put the role players in a position to be successful...i bet you could basically sub them out for equal calibre players and the result would have been the same.

 

Chicago is another example.  Look at the roster turn over between those cup winning teams.  As long as the elite core was there they could probably put you on skates and you would look like a contributor for a cup win...lol...

Edited March 20, 2019 by Darius

[-DLC-]

4 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

they wouldn't have won without them

This is your first mistake....you have NO idea what would/would have happened.  

 

So many things factor in to winning - health/injuries; goaltending; streaks; officiating.  

 

Quit stating your opinion like it's factual.  

[Tre Mac]

On 3/16/2019 at 1:19 PM, -AJ- said:

Honestly, the impatience of fans sometimes baffles me. It's like they expect a GM to be perfect in every aspect and turn a team from a bottom feeder to a contender in 2 years.

Two years lol.  He has a lot more time than two flipping years to turn around this mess.  It's sad that the only reason he wont get canned is EP40 and it's not a sure thing Benning was the only person in the organization responsible for drafting him.  This has nothing to do with 'impatience' it has everything to do with faith and I got zero faith in this management group.  Look, he is going to get fired eventually, you guys are blind if you think otherwise, might as well get someone in place sooner rather than later.   I don't expect a GM to be perfect but I do expect someone to do better than what JB has done.   You guys act like the Judd Bracket and the entire scouting staff will leave with JB, that's not going to happen.  

 

On 3/16/2019 at 1:27 PM, Generational.EP40 said:

 

 

I’ll take that as you never read what was said and think this is a full out doxing. 

 

In which case it isn’t and are like many insecure fans who think of any criticism is an automatic no-no. Lol. All I’m saying is it’s time to hand someone else the keys to the shop all while JB can still work as a mechanic...I’m acknowledging the good he’s done as most fans do. It’s about time we acknowledge the bad - not over 1 or 2 yrs but 5. It’s a bad trend.

I think JB should be outright replaced but hiring a President to oversee what he does on a day-to-day basis would suffice.  

[-DLC-]

Also:   so if I go out and buy a kazillion lottery tickets I'm better off than if I plan, save and try to get there through a combination of "hoping to win the big one" and also stuff that supports me getting there even if I don't "win" my way there?  Like not just relying on that to pan out?

[ilduce39]

5 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Baertschi was a win, yes, but he alone does not negate all the losses.

 

Should we go sign Yakupov? Or trade a 2nd for G. Reinhart or Siemens? They were drafted high for a reason right?

 

Not saying we would have a championship team otherwise.

 

What I'm saying is that it's almost impossible to win a Stanley Cup and no team, especially one in our position, can afford to waste assets (especially those that are crucial in a hard salary cap league) and except to come out on the other side as a perennial elite contender. Being a tire-fire and drafting high for 5 years in a row doesn't automatically make you a true contender.

Teams piss away “assets” all the time.  Washington trades a 2nd and 3rd round pick in 2015 for Curtis Glencross.  That lack of depth cost them a championship?  They also moved out a 3rd for Mike Weber.  A 2nd for Winnik. A 4th for Tim Gleason. A 6th and two 7ths for Eddie Pasquale.  A first and conditional 2nd plus prospects for Shattenkirk.  A 5th for Graovac.

 

Is anyone whining about assets?

 

I like what Joe did in the other thread and focused on the positives - really, that’s where the emphasis should be.  Washington DID land Oshie and Eller.  Those guys helped. 

 

Dont bother responding with the fact they’re in a different position than us.  In this day and age every team needs young guys to constantly retool their roster.  Moreover, the point is depth picks are often a lateral move at best.  If you think you can add a slightly better player they’re hardly untouchable.

[-DLC-]

9 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

Two years lol.  He has a lot more time than two flipping years to turn around this mess.  It's sad that the only reason he wont get canned is EP40 and it's not a sure thing Benning was the only person in the organization responsible for drafting him.  This has nothing to do with 'impatience' it has everything to do with faith and I got zero faith in this management group.  Look, he is going to get fired eventually, you guys are blind if you think otherwise, might as well get someone in place sooner rather than later.   I don't expect a GM to be perfect but I do expect someone to do better than what JB has done.   You guys act like the Judd Bracket and the entire scouting staff will leave with JB, that's not going to happen.  

 

I think JB should be outright replaced but hiring a President to oversee what he does on a day-to-day basis would suffice.  

You call it a mess...I'm not sure it is.  My good God, every single GM on earth would love to have Petey on their roster.   Look how Marky's improved??  Part of what a GM does is based on what "develops" over time...not just in a hit the panic button way.   And GM's have to support what the entire staff is doing...so you want to give everyone credit for EP but pile everything negative on JB?  How the hell does that work?

 

They're building chemistry - it's not an immediate thing but it sure is important.  You acquire players,  develop players, insert them, see what you've got and then determine what you need.   AND find ways to get holes filled.  

 

I heard Tony G on the radio this morning and people are starting to sound like him.  

 

"You guys are blind"?  Or, we just possibly don't share your opinion.

 

 

My good God, we're actually STILL in a very minute possible playoff picture...it's highly unlikely...but we were supposed to be at the bottom.  Now people are freaking out like 'OMG LET'S FIRE PEOPLE'???   We're actually ahead of the curve in my view.

[kanucks25]

1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

You seem to have this "let them walk" as if these players have NO say in the matter?  Like many don't want to move on or see what else they fetch?  Or, possibly and as stated above, just aren't fitting into what we need at the time?  Based on their age, health, or maybe what they are asking for in relation to what we feel they're worth?

Hamhuis had to be convinced to waive.

Matthias's best offer was a 1-year from a bad team.

Richardson put up 3rd liner production in his final year here and signed for 4th liner money in Arizona.

 

It's not a stretch to suggest if Benning actually tried, he wouldn't have much of a problem keeping any of these guys. As far as we know, Kesler was the only veteran who wanted out from the entire old core.

 

Benning had more than enough vets to hold us over, in fact him inheriting too many veterans from the old regime is one of the main excuses a Benning apologist uses, so I don't see why it was ever necessary to acquire more.

 

1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

Hindsight.  That's what you use to determine make or break that these guys don't have the luxury of.  ALL GM's will have hits and misses. 

For the umpteenth time, it's not hindsight if these moves were questioned from the very day they were made.

 

1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

That's YOUR narrative.  

 

Teams have ever changing needs and sometimes players leave because they're no longer needed, not always because they're has beens and wash outs that we adopt from the shelter.  There ARE no guarantees.  And funny how, when we let players go, they're suddenly glaring mistakes and we give up too early, but other teams don't?  There are many things that factor in to why players come/go, not just the ones that fit your argument. 

How is that my narrative? That's what happened. We acquired a bunch of players that other teams didn't want because we wanted to bypass the 18-21 year-old development phase and only 1 worked out.

 

1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

And quit sharing fake news, like we've been "the worst" for the past 4 years.  It simply isn't true.  

Below are the combined standings for the 3 years previous to this one (16, 17, 18). Add in this year's (19) standings and you will see that the only team below us is the expansion team that has played half the games.

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by kanucks25

[-DLC-]

Not even going to read it because you're just barreling along.... ^^^

[kanucks25]

47 minutes ago, Darius said:

you could probably swap out those players and still be successful.  Look at LA ...the core 4 of players...you think they couldnt have won without Dwight King, Martinez and Kyle Clifford?  Those top tier core 4 players put the role players in a position to be successful...i bet you could basically sub them out for equal calibre players and the result would have been the same.

 

Chicago is another example.  Look at the roster turn over between those cup winning teams.  As long as the elite core was there they could probably put you on skates and you would look like a contributor for a cup win...lol...

You are unfortunately misinformed, see below:

 

2 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

draft picks that weren't from the top of the draft:

 

Murray, Guentzel, Dumoulin, Letang

Carlson, Orlov, Holtby

Saad, Keith, Hjalmarsson, Crawford, Bickell, Shaw

Muzzin, Toffoli, Martinez, Voynov, Quick