JB has thrown away far too many assets - needs to be replaced as GM

[86Viking]

47 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Honestly, the impatience of fans sometimes baffles me. It's like they expect a GM to be perfect in every aspect and turn a team from a bottom feeder to a contender in 2 years. Jimbo has made some mistakes, but you have to be really turning a blind eye not to see how drastically our future has turned around with him and Brackett at the helm.

Gillis was here for what 6 years? most of which when the team was good. Jim Benning has been here now for what 4 or 5 years now? He has had top picks in all but 1 year, 2 of his top picks are not making a big impact or 0 impact as of right now in the NHL.

 

GM, coach or player....they all get judged on their performance, just comes as part of the job. 

 

JB can stay on as President and have some imput with scouting/drafting, but I do believe we need to bring someone else in the be the GM. This team needs radical changes to the D and we need to find some scoring wingers and some players who play with grit and will stand up for his teammates. JB has shown that he won't make a big impactful trade since his arrival. We won't get a good young D or big forward with grit or legit top 6 scoring WITHOUT giving up something decent.

 

At best JB should maybe have 1 more year to be the GM, my concercn lies on july 1 and what kind of bad signings he is going to make this go around....

 

No GM makes all the right moves, but to dismiss him passing on highly impactful players like Tkachuk or Ehlers is incorrect to do as well. He has done nothing to address our weak and pathetic D core. He gave up a young skilled F for a gritty D then ended up moving him for a reclamation project who is on his 3rd team this year.

 

Doubt JB gets canned this year, to have big trust in him though, I can't do that sorry. He has NOT got back decent picks or prospects by moving players out or asking guys for a trade list. I get they may have had NTC but if you can move a heart and soul guy like JUICE, why the heck can't you try to move other players who don't stand up for the young skilled guys you have.

 

If your a GM JB promoter, you probably should avoid this thread, or go join the pro JB ones...time for a news flash, Canucks still have a ton of glaring holes, while drafting high for a while now and not being able to move out multiple assets who could have brought better picks or prospects back into our organization

[86Viking]

39 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

lol Nope, not gonna get on the Fire Benning bandwagon. Look at the mighty Kesler. 8 points in 60 games this year. He's not very good. Who cares what we got for him during Benning's first few months here. Kesler wanted out and gave one team. I think the return was good, considering.

 

Okay, Canucks lost Sbisa to the Expansion Draft, and then Dorsett to career ending injury. Can't fault Benning for that. Gudbranson was traded for Pearson, who is having a much better year than Kesler. Sutter is still a decent bottom 6 C (when healthy) and Lockwood is going to be a good player for the Canucks. How's Mallett (Czech), Clendening (AHL) and Forsling (CHI) doing this year? Not very good by the looks of it. 

Forsling a middle of the row pick who is a D man who already is playing in the NHL? I'd say he has basically surpassed all expecations of him already. Better question is how is Adam Clendenning doing for us?...

[-AJ-]

1 minute ago, Canuckster86 said:

Gillis was here for what 6 years? most of which when the team was good. Jim Benning has been here now for what 4 or 5 years now? He has had top picks in all but 1 year, 2 of his top picks are not making a big impact or 0 impact as of right now in the NHL.

 

GM, coach or player....they all get judged on their performance, just comes as part of the job. 

 

JB can stay on as President and have some imput with scouting/drafting, but I do believe we need to bring someone else in the be the GM. This team needs radical changes to the D and we need to find some scoring wingers and some players who play with grit and will stand up for his teammates. JB has shown that he won't make a big impactful trade since his arrival. We won't get a good young D or big forward with grit or legit top 6 scoring WITHOUT giving up something decent.

 

At best JB should maybe have 1 more year to be the GM, my concercn lies on july 1 and what kind of bad signings he is going to make this go around....

 

No GM makes all the right moves, but to dismiss him passing on highly impactful players like Tkachuk or Ehlers is incorrect to do as well. He has done nothing to address our weak and pathetic D core. He gave up a young skilled F for a gritty D then ended up moving him for a reclamation project who is on his 3rd team this year.

 

Doubt JB gets canned this year, to have big trust in him though, I can't do that sorry. He has NOT got back decent picks or prospects by moving players out or asking guys for a trade list. I get they may have had NTC but if you can move a heart and soul guy like JUICE, why the heck can't you try to move other players who don't stand up for the young skilled guys you have.

 

If your a GM JB promoter, you probably should avoid this thread, or go join the pro JB ones...time for a news flash, Canucks still have a ton of glaring holes, while drafting high for a while now and not being able to move out multiple assets who could have brought better picks or prospects back into our organization

What did Gillis start with? Gillis already had a good team that he inherited from Nonis. Benning inherited a gutted team from Gillis. Gillis was a great GM and did everything to get us to a Cup, which included gutting the teams prospect cupboard and prospects. Benning had to start from the ground up. It's like a 100m race. Gillis started at the 50m line and Benning is at the 0m line. Of course Gillis is going to be further ahead after 3 seconds, he had a head start.

[BananaMash]

58 minutes ago, Generational.EP40 said:

https://twitter.com/radburgerz/status/1106000631242752000

 

That’s shocking. We have almost nothing of significance to show for over JB 5 year tenure.

I want to know what exactly is so shocking about this ins-and-outs list? Looking at the outs, almost all of the players traded are absolutely useless at the NHL level. Either that, or they were well past their prime when traded. Burrows, Hansen, Bieksa, and Garrison had short NHL careers after leaving here (or flat out played poorly, like Vanek). Then there are guys like Gagner and MDZ who provided absolutely nothing, and were therefor traded for very little. Is the shocking part supposed to be the prospects portion? Because the team definitely isn't hurting due to having moved on from Jensen, Shinkaruk, Lain, or Fox.

 

The best player's on the out list are Kesler, Nilsson, and Kassian... The first of which handcuffed our team (and then Anaheim with a gross contract). The other two are fringe NHL level talent at best.

 

What's shocking? What is this proving? All it shows is he brought in three really nice pieces, and unloaded a mountain of crap in the process. The picks suck to lose, but he's seemingly stopped the trend of trading them. I really don't understand how this supports any degree of "fire Benning," and I'm not even the biggest Benning fan to begin with.

 

Weak argument, in my opinion.

[86Viking]

29 minutes ago, BlueDragon23 said:

People scapegoating Benning and Green clearly don’t understand what a rebuild is. Benning has drafted some elite talent (Petey, Brock, Hughes) and found some gems (Gaudette) as well as our prospects making strides in the minors. Sure not all the contract signings have panned out but he has turned a mess that Gillis made into a promising future. 

 

Rebuilding takes patience and does not fix itself in 1 or 2 years. And patience is something most of our fanbase does not have. 

Petey and Hughes were noted high end prospects going in to the draft. Boeser, yes he did well with that pick.

 

Not so good picks at selected pick:

Virtanen- Not looking or being given a chance to be a fast skating, goal scoring LW at the NHL level

Juolevi- Injury plagued, but like any draftee, will always be compared to who was taken around him

[SabreFan1]

I hope the Canucks keep JB 2 or 3 more years until the cupboards are so stocked that the ECHL team has some AHL level talent on it.  Then give him a promotion to president of hockey operations with a focus on the scouting staff and then hire a horse trader GM that has a proven track record of excellent trading so the Canucks can take another shot at the Stanley Cup.  That way whatever the new GM trades away, JB can just keep stocking the cupboards.  If the right GM is hired, that could be a lethal 1-2 punch.

[86Viking]

5 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

What did Gillis start with? Gillis already had a good team that he inherited from Nonis. Benning inherited a gutted team from Gillis. Gillis was a great GM and did everything to get us to a Cup, which included gutting the teams prospect cupboard and prospects. Benning had to start from the ground up. It's like a 100m race. Gillis started at the 50m line and Benning is at the 0m line. Of course Gillis is going to be further ahead after 3 seconds, he had a head start.

Most teams who are good, competing in the playoffs regularly trade away picks and prospects in hopes of a long run and hoisting lord stanley. We got close, did Gillis draft well...no not really, but he was a player agent with 0 scouting or management history...

 

How many years does JB need? this is off season #5 for him coming up no? Maybe we should at least move on from Wesibrod and bring in or promote a one day successor to JB?

 

Some form of change soonish should be done at the management level. Can't go through coach after coach after coach. I don't always like how Green deploys his lines but he has a lackluster group of players to send out on a nightly basis, so this can't fall on the 3rd coach under JB

[86Viking]

4 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

I hope the Canucks keep JB 2 or 3 more years until the cupboards are so stocked that the ECHL team has some AHL level talent on it.  Then give him a promotion to president of hockey operations with a focus on the scouting staff and then hire a horse trader GM that has a proven track record of excellent trading so the Canucks can take another shot at the Stanley Cup.  That way whatever the new GM trades away, JB can just keep stocking the cupboards.  If the right GM is hired, that could be a lethal 1-2 punch.

our AHL team is so depleted that we lack depth their even. I dont know how the Canucks have a top 5 ranked prospect pool in the league, glance down in Utica and see how they are fairing. Usually your farm team should be Calder cup contenders if you have good prospect depth no? We keep signing echl guys to fill in on Utica. I think our depth is shakey at best. 

 

Our good prospects are in the NHL, all ???? remain prospect wise outside of our current roster

[SabreFan1]

11 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

our AHL team is so depleted that we lack depth their even. I dont know how the Canucks have a top 5 ranked prospect pool in the league, glance down in Utica and see how they are fairing. Usually your farm team should be Calder cup contenders if you have good prospect depth no? We keep signing echl guys to fill in on Utica. I think our depth is shakey at best. 

 

Our good prospects are in the NHL, all ???? remain prospect wise outside of our current roster

I've watched Utica play on Reddit streams.  I don't think they're half bad at all.  Give JB 2 or 3 more years of solid drafting and they should be killing it.

 

I should expand more on this post.  When the Canucks aren't pilfer Utica, they play pretty decent.  Would it be nice to have more depth?  Sure.  That's why I want JB to have another 2 or 3 years at the helm.  He is dubious in trading but fairly good in drafting.

Edited March 16, 2019 by SabreFan1

[-AJ-]

3 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

Most teams who are good, competing in the playoffs regularly trade away picks and prospects in hopes of a long run and hoisting lord stanley. We got close, did Gillis draft well...no not really, but he was a player agent with 0 scouting or management history...

 

How many years does JB need? this is off season #5 for him coming up no? Maybe we should at least move on from Wesibrod and bring in or promote a one day successor to JB?

 

Some form of change soonish should be done at the management level. Can't go through coach after coach after coach. I don't always like how Green deploys his lines but he has a lackluster group of players to send out on a nightly basis, so this can't fall on the 3rd coach under JB

It's been a long ride, but I think it's clear that we're trending up and unless we begin to trend back down, we should continue to let things go the way they are. It'll take a long time at this pace, but we will eventually continue trending up.

 

2016-17: 69 points

2017-18: 73 points

2018-19 pace: 79 points

 

If this trend continues linearly (which I realize isn't the best way to forecast the future), we'd be on pace for about 84 points in 2019-20, which would be another improvement. If, however, we regress back down to the low 70s, I think you might have more of a case and management like Benning should be looked at.

[86Viking]

1 minute ago, -AJ- said:

It's been a long ride, but I think it's clear that we're trending up and unless we begin to trend back down, we should continue to let things go the way they are. It'll take a long time at this pace, but we will eventually continue trending up.

 

2016-17: 69 points

2017-18: 73 points

2018-19 pace: 79 points

 

If this trend continues linearly (which I realize isn't the best way to forecast the future), we'd be on pace for about 84 points in 2019-20, which would be another improvement. If, however, we regress back down to the low 70s, I think you might have more of a case and management like Benning should be looked at.

We are trending up for 2 reasons this year, I would say 1 reason but that wouldnt be fair.

 

Reason 1- Pistol Pete lighting it up the first half

 

Reason 2- Markstrom stealing points for most of the season playing unreal infront of an AHL D core

[smithers joe]

i remember when the mighty quinn was gm here. there were fans and tony gallagher who didn’t agree with how he ran the team and wanted him fired. now he has a statue erected of him. even the mistakes JB has made, i could see what he was trying to do at the time. he expected another 30 goal season from louie, playing with the sedins. he traded for gudbranson because our defense was too soft. gudy had a reputation of being a tough customer. injuries and lack of speed made that a less then ideal trade. one of my favourite players, brandon sutter, wasn’t a great scorer but looked after the heavy defensive lifting until injuries fell him. our power play was woeful, so he signed gagner as a free agent after he had had a strong season on the PP, for columbus. 

if your going to list his mistakes, you also need to list his accomplishments or your just a hater. 

the list i’ve got is a lot longer than his failures. 

to really judge a person, you need to gather all the evidence so we can deliberate on what the outcome should. we are not all desi’s.

[elvis15]

1 hour ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Went from the worst prospect pool in the league to consistent top 5... with prospects graduating consistently as well... like what kind of thread is this ?

And we haven't been doing it by being abject failures on the ice. Sure, we haven't had the results in the standings, but the teams he's put together in the interim have remained competitive most games (when injuries didn't get in the way).

 

It's extremely short-sighted to look at the assets he's traded away (not very much of interest there, by the way) but now show how other GMs have far surpassed him in this regard. Without that comparison it's just an opinion that things look negative. Teams spend assets every year to try and improve, and more often than not they don't work out as a net positive. Same happens if you keep those draft picks (or ageing players) that not every pick you make turns into something useful at the NHL level.

[-AJ-]

Just now, Canuckster86 said:

We are trending up for 2 reasons this year, I would say 1 reason but that wouldnt be fair.

 

Reason 1- Pistol Pete lighting it up the first half

 

Reason 2- Markstrom stealing points for most of the season playing unreal infront of an AHL D core

Agreed. It's an exciting time to be a fan now, even if the last month has been less fun. 

[Tom Sestito]

3 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

You make some good points.

 

I think my philosophy is that a trade isn't a failure until proven as such. That said, if a player immediately succeeds (like Leivo), then they can be instantly noted as a success. I see your point though and there's probably a more balanced way to look at it.

 

Regarding my list of trades and why we're not so good yet, I think a lot of the trades are extremely small victories, and only a few big ones. To put it into numbers (because I'm a numbers guy), say we need to get to 1000 to be a cup contender and we were at 150 when Benning started. He's done a lot of trades that have been +5, but even 20 +5 trades only gets you to 250, where you still suck.

Okay, this is tangible to go off of. 

 

To the first part, I think you can indicate with high certainty the likelihood of failure vs success. For me, I like to look at the D+1/D+2 seasons of a player. Maybe d+3 if they're not AHL eligible in their second season. If there isn't a growth in their game that's either constant or sudden, I think you can safely indicate with a high degree of success what the player is. Like, as an example, Juolevi is in his D+3 season. I understand that he's injured, but those early returns have not been strong. His production has been OK, but his defensive game is eye-glaringly bad. Like, if people thought Derrick Pouliot was bad last year, they'd be shocked if they watched a Utica game prior to his injury. He has some glaring defensive compete issues. The likelihood that he's this minute munching top four D has decreased significantly. His defensive game has such a long way to go, that I'm not sure he figures it out quick enough. Meanwhile, guys like Pettersson and Boeser showed immensely in their d+1/d+2 seasons that they've grown a large amount that they're successes. I also don't like classifying Virtanen as a success just because he plays NHL games. Relative to his draft position and other players available, I think he hasn't turned into a player you'd classify as a success. 

 

And I also agree with your second point. Benning's trade wins have been inconsequential. I really like Leivo. I liked the trade at the time, and I've been an advocate for acquiring him in the past. We gave up a low likelihood of achieving potential prospect in Carcone (albeit, he was underrated) for a capable 3rd line LW'er. But even then, like is that his biggest win as a GM? Getting a player who the Leafs had promised to trade if he wasn't given opportunity? Or Baertschi, an injury prone player (and I also like Baertschi?) I think a good way for you to look at it since you like looking at it in numbers is to look at it from an economics standpoint - a term known as opportunity cost. (the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.) Some people see things as "oh, we got this player for free and he won't make a difference because his contract isn't over 3 years so if he sucks idc lol". I see it as, we have given a roster spot to someone who could be replaced by a cheaper or younger asset who could be flipped. 

 

I just look at a team that was in the same place as us in the Leafs in 2014. Really outside of Morgan Reilly, I think you can safely say that they were a team in similar shape to ours. They had some bad contracts, some guys that were undesirable, and some OK young talent. They needed to be steered in the right direction.  Going back to my opportunity cost point, if we had signed or traded for players who we could flip for assets, I would have bought into the Benning regime more. This is where I think they've had failures at the pro level. We haven't been able to identify enough pro talent that could be flipped for draft picks that a rebuilding team has gotten. This is opportunity cost. We could have signed players that could be flipped for better assets, but instead we kept guys that we let expire outside of Burrows & Hansen. And even then, Hansen was only dealt by Benning due to the expansion draft (HIS OWN WORDS!) and not for the purpose of rebuilding. 

[Warhippy]

53 minutes ago, Generational.EP40 said:

1.) not saying to get ride of him entirely, just at the managerial level as he undoubtably has restocked the prospect cupboard for us which can’t be denied

 

2.) should retain some sort of position, preferably something like president or VP of hockey operations to overlook things and continue sharing his expertise when it comes to drafting/prospects

 

3.) so why should he step down / be replaced as GM? Let’s look:

 

 

That’s shocking. We have almost nothing of significance to show for over JB 5 year tenure.

 

 

 

...it’s no surprise we hired a newbie GM at the time. This critical transition phase the organization is in, we can’t be allowing this much trial&error with the scarce assets we have to work with in the first place. 

 

On top of the asset inefficiency, his inexperience as manager has been evident with the signings as well. Overpaying & giving extended years to questionable players, just unnecessary. All it’s done is become dead weight which can’t be moved and will anchor the roster in the years ahead.

 

That manager inexperience? To continue, he hasn’t been able to commit to a plan or vision since day1. A rebuild was clear as day but the R word was never uttered until Linden became president. Prior to that he dodged it like the plague and would never admit it. Thought he could fast track by trading picks in the beginning when those picks could’ve been paying dividends for us right now. Too much flip flopping between ideologies. Remember “meat & potatoes”? That died shortly but then he couldn’t fully let it go either as evident by drafting Virtanen coming off a major surgery...he just couldn’t help himself. Even now, we struck gold with EP. Rebuild was endorsed but now that we got lucky and EP has fast forwarded that timeline, he thinks we can fight for a playoff(WC) spot. The man can’t help himself and begins jumping the gun too easily, can’t stay focused on the mission. 

 

Just far too much indecisiveness and it’s fair to say we’ve seen enough. Let’s get a proven GM who can be relied on to stay the course, not get ahead of himself, and let the nature of the rebuild take place organically while JB overlooks the draft aspect. I think that would be best for all parties. Stack up on maximum assets, get a cap structure going, get rid of bad contracts in this vital transition phase when we will shortly but surely be on the rise. Hypothetically, targeting an Yzerman or someone along those lines as GM+President would be ideal. 

 

Thoughts?

Thoughts?  You posted a guys take on things who presented a list of veritable garbage and claim they are assets.  In the NHL one mans trash is NOT another mans treasure and arguably the ONLY question marks are McCann, Forsling and I guess Sutter at this stage.  

 

Evertying else on that list is a joke.  He's actually down 1 pick from all his trades in his tenure added up.  He's shed over $22 million on the cap, 8+ years on average off the roster and turned one of if not the worst prospect pool in the entire league in to one of the top 5 in the league

 

lEtS fIrE BeNnInG aSsEt ManAgeMeNT

 

Come on man, if you're going to present such a drastic statement

 

1.  Present YOUR argument not some clown off of twitter (it's you isn't it, that's your twitter handle right?)

2.  Don't prsent someone else's twitter argument who ends their whole argument with @botchford as though he's looking for approval

3.  Don't say fire benning but add not really, let's fire him but not fire him

 

Honestly....it took YEARS to shed the dead weight from this team it took YEARS to start building a respectable prospect pool and it's gonna take years more for the drafting and development program to atually start paying serious dividends.  Trade all the vets, earn all the picks only works if 29 other GMs want to play ball, if players want to waive NTCs.

 

Sorry bud, poor argument you shared and we're not bringing in Yzerman or anyone of the sort

[86Viking]

4 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Agreed. It's an exciting time to be a fan now, even if the last month has been less fun. 

Going forward we should only get better. I would like liked to see more call up or young players gets a handful of games this year, but it is what it is.

 

I don't think too many fans would be upset if Loui or Granny sat so Big Mac could get the rest of the season games at the NHL level. He will need to be a hard hitting physical player at the big leagues, otherwise we just have Archibald 2.0

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

our AHL team is so depleted that we lack depth their even. I dont know how the Canucks have a top 5 ranked prospect pool in the league, glance down in Utica and see how they are fairing. Usually your farm team should be Calder cup contenders if you have good prospect depth no? We keep signing echl guys to fill in on Utica. I think our depth is shakey at best. 

 

Our good prospects are in the NHL, all ???? remain prospect wise outside of our current roster

Not necessarily.  The best prospects don’t play many games in the AHL level if at all, they do what Boeser, EP and now Hughes are doing.   The tier down is what the AHL team is made up with, and most of the team is made up of AHL vets that aren’t considered prospects anymore.  But I get where your going with this..

[TGokou]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. I've been a big Benning supporter up until this point but I think I've been giving him too much credit. I feel that draft success has less to do with a GM than it has to do with scouting staff. It's not like Benning goes out and looks at Adam Gaudette prior to his draft. It is completely in the hands of Judd Bracket and his scouting team. They just tell Benning who to draft and he trusts them. Sure he may have had some input early on in his tenure as to how he wants his scouting staff to be run and for that I will give him credit, however most of his 'successes' are attributed to his drafting and NOT his trading and signing which he is directly involved in. In that sense his trading and signings have been atrotious. He may have made some decent trades but he'd go and follow that up by making an equally bad trade to lose the asset. His free agent signings have been complete failures. I mean I'm not expecting his signings to live up to the full value of their contract but you have to get a least 2-3 good years out of them. Most of them you haven't even gotten one good year out of them.  Linden was completely right in his assessment. The Canucks are just not ready to compete.

[86Viking]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Not necessarily.  The best prospects don’t play many games in the AHL level if at all, they do what Boeser, EP and now Hughes are doing.   The tier down is what the AHL team is made up with, and most of the team is made up of AHL vets that aren’t considered prospects anymore.  But I get where your going with this..

Oh I agree, that is the problem, we haven't seen much in the way of prospects succeed at the AHL level before NHL promotion. Gaudette was in college, if Sutter could ever stay healthy Adam would be helping Utica.