JB has thrown away far too many assets - needs to be replaced as GM

[SingleThorn]

Not a totally wasted thread. Learned a new word. Now how can I include 'doxing' in a comment ? The rest ? Blah, blah, blah, hatred, emotional angst, blah, blah !

[JM_]

Can you order the list by "generational" and "foundational" please? that would be super helpful. 

[Pepe Silvia]

27 minutes ago, Generational.EP40 said:

Hypothetically, targeting an Yzerman or someone along those lines as GM+President would be ideal. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Generational.EP40 said:

Yzerman isn’t GM anymore. So yea, as Forsberg said:

 

 

:]

You're asking Benning to be moved into a into a different role other than GM (president?) and being in Yzerman as a GM. Are you not?

[-AJ-]

Just now, Generational.EP40 said:

 

 

I’ll take that as you never read what was said and think this is a full out doxing. 

 

In which case it isn’t and are like many insecure fans who think of any criticism is an automatic no-no. Lol. All I’m saying is it’s time to hand someone else the keys to the shop all while JB can still work as a mechanic...I’m acknowledging the good he’s done as most fans do. It’s about time we acknowledge the bad - not over 1 or 2 yrs but 5. It’s a bad trend.

I've done an in-depth look at all his trades and draft picks and categorized which ones are outright losses and he actually loses only a few of them by my estimation. I can't find the post I made, but it was a few months ago.

 

EDIT: 

 

Found it:

 

On 2/13/2019 at 1:05 AM, -AJ- said:

Draft Successes:

Boeser - 23rd

Gaudette - 149th

Dipietro - 64th

Pettersson - 5th

Hughes - 7th

Virtanen - 6th (Debatable, but he's a respectable NHL player at least)

McCaan - 24th (Not with the Canucks, but has become a solid NHL player)

Demko - 31st

Tryamkin - 66th (Could play in the NHL if he wanted to)

Forslling - 126th

 

 

Draft Failures:

None for certain, but some depending on how critical you are:

 

Virtanen - 6th (Great, but not as good as initially hoped...so far)

Juolevi - 5th (Still developing, so jury is still out on him IMO)

Lind - 33rd (Has struggled in Utica, but it's just his 1st pro season)

Gadjovich - 55th (Same as Lind)

 

 

Trade Sucesses:

Received a 2nd for Garrison, Costello, and a 7th

Received Dorsett for a 3rd

Received Baertschi for a 2nd

Received 3rd and 7th for Lack

Received 2nd for Bieksa

Received Granlund for Shinkaruk

Received Dahlen for Burrows

Received Goldobin and a conditional 4th for Hansen

Received Motte and Jokinen for Vanek

Received Leipsic for Holm

Received Leivo for Carcone

 

Trade Failures:

Received Clendening for Forsling

Received Sutter and conditional 3rd for Bonino, Clendening, and a 2nd

Received Gudbranson and a 5th for McCaan, a 2nd, and a 4th

 

I can't find a site that tracks all free agent signings, so it's hard to get data on that.

 

Based on this data, I think Jimbo has done a great job. This team is improving and anyone can see that. I see no reason why he will be gone by the time we're a great team. We have one of the most exciting young players in the game on our team on top of other great top forwards like Horvat and Boeser. Markstrom is playing the best hockey of his life and Demko is eager to make his mark in the NHL. Benning is one of the better GMs in the history of the Canucks and has turned this team around.

 

[Ghostsof1915]

7 minutes ago, Generational.EP40 said:

Well a good start would be a GM who can go into a trade without the opposing GM knowing he has the upper hand on. Someone not inexperienced like JB because he’s underwhelming in the trade department which everyone knows.

That's a blanket response. So what moves has Benning not done at the deadline this year to get picks?

- Edler, NTC (Injuries) didn't want to move.

- Hutton, Injured, (I wouldn't trade him yet).

- Tanev, Injured, and back on injury, probably wouldn't give any reasonable return.

- Sutter, Injured 

- Eriksson, 6 million reasons and only 20+ points, who would give you a pick for that?

- Baer, Concussion

 

So once again, what assets did we have to move? Or were you thinking of trading Horvat, EP40, Boeser or Stetcher? 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Ghostsof1915

[ForsbergTheGreat]

11 minutes ago, Generational.EP40 said:

 

Thank you haha

 

For those like you who read it which is appreciated, I’m not saying to get rid of Benning entirely. Just at the managerial(GM) level. He can stay as advisor / head scout / hockey ops because obviously his expertise is drafting which we can’t lose out on.

I think he's made a good amount of mistakes but I also think his positives outweigh the negatives (maybe not in trading assets) but in the overall scheme of things he's done good.  For example, sure he lost on trading a 5th for Larsen, a 6th + jensen for etem and a 5th + kassian for Prust, but relatively speaking, I can live with those mistakes. 

 

 Realistically, none of his mistakes dramatically set back this franchise other than delaying it a year or two, it's not like he traded young stars in Hall, Eberle, Barzal all way and has nothing left to show for it.  I mean what's his worst move?  McCann and a 2nd for Gudbranson (Pearson)?  While it's still a mistake, it's not fire worthy.  At worst we've giving up some solid "potential" pieces and honestly I think we've started to see a bit of a change in the direction of this team is heading.  Less focus on the short term and more focus on actually rebuilding..   

Edited March 16, 2019 by ForsbergTheGreat

[Generational.EP40]

3 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

I've done an in-depth look at all his trades and draft picks and categorized which ones are outright losses and he actually loses only a few of them by my estimation. I can't find the post I made, but it was a few months ago.

 

EDIT: 

 

Found it:

 

 

 

Appreciated.

 

Yep not saying just drafting, but more so the whole package. Wavering in team vision / always jumping the gun, contracts, etc. Would be nice to get a stable presence for a change.

[Twilight Sparkle]

im not following your twitter and this thread sucks

[RetroCanuck]

17 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Technically he's not incorrect, we traded that pick away for Pedan in 2014, but then reacquired it later when we traded Bonino, Clendening and a 2nd round pick to the penguins two years later.

Ahh forgot that happened. 

 

Regardless, still a useless conversation

[BlueDragon23]

People scapegoating Benning and Green clearly don’t understand what a rebuild is. Benning has drafted some elite talent (Petey, Brock, Hughes) and found some gems (Gaudette) as well as our prospects making strides in the minors. Sure not all the contract signings have panned out but he has turned a mess that Gillis made into a promising future. 

 

Rebuilding takes patience and does not fix itself in 1 or 2 years. And patience is something most of our fanbase does not have. 

[Ghostsof1915]

Perhaps you'd like this team to go back to drafting guys like Rodin and Mallet? 

[Generational.EP40]

Just now, Ghostsof1915 said:

Perhaps you'd like this team to go back to drafting guys like Rodin and Mallet? 

Perhaps u should read instead of assuming 

[canuck73_3]

28 minutes ago, Generational.EP40 said:

 

 

I’ll take that as you never read what was said and think this is a full out doxing. 

 

In which case it isn’t and are like many insecure fans who think of any criticism is an automatic no-no. Lol. All I’m saying is it’s time to hand someone else the keys to the shop all while JB can still work as a mechanic...I’m acknowledging the good he’s done as most fans do. It’s about time we acknowledge the bad - not over 1 or 2 yrs but 5. It’s a bad trend.

Criticism is fine, however it needs to be balanced. Focusing ONLY on the negatives is just as disingenious as only the positives. Wadr

[Tom Sestito]

18 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

I've done an in-depth look at all his trades and draft picks and categorized which ones are outright losses and he actually loses only a few of them by my estimation. I can't find the post I made, but it was a few months ago.

 

EDIT: 

 

Found it:

 

 

Not that I necessarily disagree with much of what you've written, but how can you go about calling players successes and saying none of the others are failures at this stage? Like, does that not seem unfair? 

[-AJ-]

Just now, Tom Sestito said:

Not that I necessarily disagree with much of what you've written, but how can you go about calling players successes and saying none of the others are failures at this stage? Like, does that not seem unfair? 

Do you mean as a result of not enough time passed? Are you asking in regards to the draft section?

[Baer.]

JB Drafting: absolute genius (thanks Judd Bracket)

 

JB trading: yikes

 

JB on July 1st: dear god, don't let him near the phone!

[Tom Sestito]

Just now, -AJ- said:

Do you mean as a result of not enough time passed? Are you asking in regards to the draft section?

Sorry, I should clarify.

 

I think it's strange that you're willing to indicate that enough time has passed to say that X player is a success, but not enough time has passed to say that player Y is a failure. 

 

It just seems uneven to me.

 

And I think your list of trades is oddly one sided as well. If Benning was hitting as often as your list indicates, our team would be a lot better than it currently is. I don't have a gripe with our amateur talent evaluation, but our pro scouting has been an objective failure. 

[joe-max]

Here we go again... Let me cut it short for you. It will save everybody a lot of valuable time.

 

You say: "JB has thrown away far too many picks!"

I say: "He had no other choice. The prospect pool was bare, he had to give away lottery tickets (2nd-round picks) for players further along in their development to ice a somewhat respectable team."

 

You say: "But he overpaid. Vey was a bust, Granlund sucks, Baertschi is done."

I say: "Each of them played over 100 NHL games with the Canucks. Not many 2nd-rounders will achieve that. "

 

You say: "But, but, he could just have turned players of the old core into younger assets instead of giving away picks like candy!"

Ie say: "The core was old, stale, had NTCs all over the place and most players didn't have a lot of value. Additionally he was trying to give the Sedins one last shot."

 

You say: "But look at that long list! Look at what he shipped out!"

I say: "There is not a single player on that list that I would want on the team right now. Gagner? Hansen? Mallet? Garrison? Come on. Possibly Kassian, but that's it and there were good reasons to get rid of him. Instead we reveived Leivo, Pearson, Baertschi, Granlund, Goldobin, Sutter, Motte, Brisebois."

 

You say: "But....but....Forsling!"

I say: "Yeah, he might become something one day. This year he has played 32 games and recently averages around 15 minutes per game on an average team and is -8."

 

You say: "And Granlund ist trash. Utter trash!"

I say: "No, he isn't."

 

You say: "Anyways. A proper rebuild would have required to go hard for picks. JB has failed miserably at that."

I say: "Young players with a more predictable future like Goldobin, Motte are not worse than draft picks."

 

You say: "He should have traded Sutter, Tanev, Markstrom, Edler, everybody over the age of 25 for picks. Let the young guns run the show!

I say: "You have to retain a certain balance. Your suggestion would have meant 10-15 wins less."

 

You say: "Yeah. And that would have been great. Better chances at the no.1 pick that this franchise so much deserves!"

I say: "That's not how a successful team is developed. Players like Horvat or Pettersson could not take several seasons of constant losing. They want to compete, they want to win. If the season was lost before it started, it would hurt their development and they would probably want to get out at one point."

 

You say: "But they are losing! No playoffs in years!"

I say: "There has been significant improvement in many areas that will pay off in the long run (EP, prospect pool, EP, goaltending, style of play, EP). A full turnaround requires time. Deal with it. You cannot blow up an entire team and expect immediate results. Team building is more complex than that. This is not NHL 19."

 

You say: "There is only one way: full tank! YOU NEED A NO.1 OVERALL PICK. Every recent cup winner has had one."

I say: "We'd rather change the team name. Every cup winner since 2002 has had the letter "i" in the name. Let's call them the "Vancouvier Canucks". It increases the odds. Statstically."

 

You say: "But, but, but... HE SHUD OF DRAFTED KOPITARZZZZZ!"

I say: "Fair enough. I'm out. But could you stop the excrement-reference when talking about Pouliot? That's disrespectful. Thank you. Good bye."

Edited March 16, 2019 by joe-max

[-AJ-]

3 minutes ago, Tom Sestito said:

Sorry, I should clarify.

 

I think it's strange that you're willing to indicate that enough time has passed to say that X player is a success, but not enough time has passed to say that player Y is a failure. 

 

It just seems uneven to me.

 

And I think your list of trades is oddly one sided as well. If Benning was hitting as often as your list indicates, our team would be a lot better than it currently is. I don't have a gripe with our amateur talent evaluation, but our pro scouting has been an objective failure. 

You make some good points.

 

I think my philosophy is that a trade isn't a failure until proven as such. That said, if a player immediately succeeds (like Leivo), then they can be instantly noted as a success. I see your point though and there's probably a more balanced way to look at it.

 

Regarding my list of trades and why we're not so good yet, I think a lot of the trades are extremely small victories, and only a few big ones. To put it into numbers (because I'm a numbers guy), say we need to get to 1000 to be a cup contender and we were at 150 when Benning started. He's done a lot of trades that have been +5, but even 20 +5 trades only gets you to 250, where you still suck.

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

I think JB has done a good job digging out a rotten root and planted a new one that is healthy and slowly growing.  

 

Through acquisition and the limited options he has had, he has done an adequate job in restocking the prospect cupboards, trying his best to find players to plug in to insulate the future and young prospects, and has had some shrewd acquisitions such as Baertschi, Leivo, Stecher.

 

However, I do believe like any good team, you go through cycles of GM's and Coaches before you land on the spot.  Good teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA, Boston, Washington who have been successful in winning the Stanley Cup have cycled through many GM's and coaches before they found the right one.

 

To JB's credit he has done great and helped us get to a good spot, but at some point I think the team will go as far as his skill set will take them. I think JB is a great foundation builder and that goes hand in hand with his scouting and talent finding experience.  But I think for the team to eventually get over a significant hump to become a true contender team, a more experienced GM will be needed, perhaps even a more veteran tested coach.

 

But we aren't there yet, and who knows JB could grow into that role.  Overall, I am satisfied with where we are, but I am eager to see this team take the next step in its development, hopefully JB evolves as well along with this team.  He makes mistakes, some pretty glaring ones, but humans are allowed to make mistakes...no one is perfect.  Patience is a hard virtue to have, and its understandable that some fans and media are disgruntled.