spook007 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 12 minutes ago, Generational.EP40 said: So you’re really out here believing the Caps won the Cup because of Beagle and won’t win again / wouldn’t have won because they lost him? No I don’t.... however unlike you I believe its a team sport with lots of important parts... There’s the superstars, theres the middle line stars and then fillers... I do believe players good at their trades can help the youngsters get better. I’m not taking about the like of EP, but the likes of Gaudette, and hopefully more upcoming youngsters. Its about compete levels that needs to be brought to the game every single night. I’m also a firm believer in the enormous advantage SC winners can bring to any squad as they’ve been there, done that and knows, what it takes... someone for the younger players to look up to, instead of letting them figure it out for them selves. Benning should be applauded for that Caps may win another cap, but its a team game and if you think Dowd is as good a player as Beagle, then you must have been sleeping, while Dowd was here.... You obviously think Beagle is a crap 4C filler that can easily be replaced... Lets just say I totally disagree... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Just now, spook007 said: I do believe players good at their trades can help the youngsters get better. I’m not taking about the like of EP, but the likes of Gaudette, and hopefully more upcoming youngsters. Its about compete levels that needs to be brought to the game every single night. I seem to recall a story or tweet a few months back that Gaudette was following Beagle around like a lost puppy crossed with a sponge No value in having a guy like that around whatsoever. Replacement level 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, aGENT said: I seem to recall a story or tweet a few months back that Gaudette was following Beagle around like a lost puppy crossed with a sponge No value in having a guy like that around whatsoever. Replacement level Amazing this is so hard to comprehend. Benning is trying to build a winning culture... starts by making sure you don’t set up your youth to fail... give them the support they need and deserve... Just as he did, when he aquired Dorsett... And I’m sure there’s a bigger likelihood of a young player listening to a SC winner than to other players, whether it be right or wrong.... Edited March 23, 2019 by spook007 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 17 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Well that fact that we had already proven we could picked up these types of equivalents in the past 5 years is a good start. Sutter = Richardson, Beagle Baertschi = Vanek, Vbrata Dorsett = Roussel, Weise Vey = Santoreli, Chaput, Boucher Gudbranson = Del Zotto Pedan = Schenn Larsen = Bartkowski Pouliot = Biega Prust = Skille Etem = Burmistrov Players on the right cost us cap space and a roster spot but zero assets. And that doesn't include other free pick up's like Miller, Stecher, MacEwen Players on the left cost us 4x 2nd + 3rd + 4th + 2x 5th + 6th + McCann + Bonino + Kassian Heck JB's shown he's been able to pick up similar talent by moving out assets other than draft picks in Leivo, granlund, Dowd, Goldobin, Dahlen/Karlsson, Motte. There's more than enough evidence to show that these "needed" age gaps/stop gaps/culture builders/stop us from bottom being feeders' or whatever you want to call them, did NOT have to come at the expense of draft picks. That’s a lot of hindsight and ignoring the age difference between Sutter/Baertschi and guys like Richardson/Vrbata. The timelines are also wonky - Roussel wasn’t available when we acquired Dorsett. Add in that Dorsett would likely still be with the club were it not for injury. If your point is that JB could have shuffled the roster without moving any picks, I guess he could have. I think our team is stronger with a healthy Sutter, Baertschi and Dorsett though. If Pearson sticks with Horvat that also helps to mitigate the Gudbranson cost. So.. we could have done it without moving picks, but there was some value in some of those moves. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: That’s a lot of hindsight and ignoring the age difference between Sutter/Baertschi and guys like Richardson/Vrbata. The timelines are also wonky - Roussel wasn’t available when we acquired Dorsett. Add in that Dorsett would likely still be with the club were it not for injury. If your point is that JB could have shuffled the roster without moving any picks, I guess he could have. I think our team is stronger with a healthy Sutter, Baertschi and Dorsett though. If Pearson sticks with Horvat that also helps to mitigate the Gudbranson cost. So.. we could have done it without moving picks, but there was some value in some of those moves. And, realistically, if Baertsch were healthy, he's still easily worth a late 2nd round pick - ditto with Dorsett, who was easily worth a 3rd round pick when he retired (a healthy Dorsett may have actually returned an uptick on the pick spent for him) - and Sutter likewise - was acquired for another placeholder (from the Kesler deal), and no picks were actually 'spent' in that deal - what actually happened was a pick swap of a late 2nd for high 3rd - a relatively inconsequential one imo given Brisebois is a guy presently in the NHL, a pick they may have made late in the 2nd as opposed to 5 picks into the 3rd in any event (some good D in that draft, but we don't know if a marginal trade down effected their targets in any way). 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, oldnews said: And, realistically, if Baertsch were healthy, he's still easily worth a late 2nd round pick - ditto with Dorsett, who was easily worth a 3rd round pick when he retired (a healthy Dorsett may have actually returned an uptick on the pick spent for him) - and Sutter likewise - was acquired for another placeholder (from the Kesler deal), and no picks were actually 'spent' in that deal - what actually happened was a pick swap of a late 2nd for high 3rd - a relatively inconsequential one imo given Brisebois is a guy presently in the NHL, a pick they may have made late in the 2nd as opposed to 5 picks into the 3rd in any event (some good D in that draft, but we don't know if a marginal trade down effected their targets in any way). Yep. With all due respect to Virtanen, a healthy Sutter or Baertschi are in the running for our best forward after the big 3 IMO and their stories aren’t done with the club as to be written into random asset management critiques. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: Yep. With all due respect to Virtanen, a healthy Sutter or Baertschi are in the running for our best forward after the big 3 IMO and their stories aren’t done with the club as to be written into random asset management critiques. Yes - Green's top forwards - the guys that eat the most minutes are typically 3 centers with a top line winger in the mix. Horvat, EP/ Boeser, Sutter....that's how a Green depth chart typically breaks down. Love all the solid two way wingers in the mix - but those guys play the biggest roles - and in spite of being 'only' a 4th line C, Beagle is arguably as important as most of the other wingers in the lineup as well imo - and certainly when any of those other 3 are out of the lineup (as in in the present, and unfortunately, all too regularly). 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, oldnews said: Yes - Green's top forwards - the guys that eat the most minutes are typically 3 centers with a top line winger in the mix. Horvat, EP/ Boeser, Sutter....that's how a Green depth chart typically breaks down. Love all the solid two way wingers in the mix - but those guys play the biggest roles - and in spite of being 'only' a 4th line C, Beagle is arguably as important as most of the other wingers in the lineup as well imo - and certainly when any of those other 3 are out of the lineup (as in in the present, and unfortunately, all too regularly). Yeah, coaches have deployed Sutter like a rented mule in his time here. Hope he comes back next season fresh after breaking down. Likewise with Baer - likely our 4th highest scoring forward if healthy. Not to be down on Goldy, I like the kid, but Baer brings all the O/Creativity with a reliable defensive game and a willingness to go to the net. Hope he can put together a season next year too. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Perhaps you want Chia as our GM, he did so well with Edmonton. Wow.. trigger much? Perhaps I want the team not to be the worst team in the league over the past 4 years. Perhaps I want JB to remain the GM. I made no mention about what I want.. I made an observation that the recent surge probably saved JBs job. After Linden being pushed out last year because JB thought he could push for the playoffs. I think there was a good chance he gets fired if he finished bottom 5. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: Yeah, coaches have deployed Sutter like a rented mule in his time here. Hope he comes back next season fresh after breaking down. Likewise with Baer - likely our 4th highest scoring forward if healthy. Not to be down on Goldy, I like the kid, but Baer brings all the O/Creativity with a reliable defensive game and a willingness to go to the net. Hope he can put together a season next year too. I think if Baer gets healthy, the Pearson acquisition might spell the end of Goldobin's window. Probably won't know until the roster needs to be set for next season, but despite the addition of Pearson, it wouldn't surprise me if they go out and add another UFA winger. I really like the Leivo acquisition but he's also likely only placeholding this high up in the lineup and likely winds up a bottom 6 winger once the team is remotely healthy. Getting outproduced by Roussel also doesn't really bode well for Goldy.... It's lining up to be a very competitive camp next year for forwards....with the possiblity that they could also wind up with a reasonably high pick this year in a fairly forward weighted top end of the draft. Goldy probably needed to play his best hockey consistently this year - but tailed off and really didn't seize the opportunity (still a bit of a window for him, but not looking great for him here. Edited March 23, 2019 by oldnews 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generational.EP40 Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 2 hours ago, spook007 said: No I don’t.... however unlike you I believe its a team sport with lots of important parts... There’s the superstars, theres the middle line stars and then fillers... I do believe players good at their trades can help the youngsters get better. I’m not taking about the like of EP, but the likes of Gaudette, and hopefully more upcoming youngsters. Its about compete levels that needs to be brought to the game every single night. I’m also a firm believer in the enormous advantage SC winners can bring to any squad as they’ve been there, done that and knows, what it takes... someone for the younger players to look up to, instead of letting them figure it out for them selves. Benning should be applauded for that Caps may win another cap, but its a team game and if you think Dowd is as good a player as Beagle, then you must have been sleeping, while Dowd was here.... You obviously think Beagle is a crap 4C filler that can easily be replaced... Lets just say I totally disagree... Well yea, obviously there’s role players in all sports no one denies that. And how are you comparing Gaudette to Beagle - a role player? Gaudette is the most recent Hobey Baker winner. He has serious skills to be a game changer NOT as some “filler”...I just don’t get what you’re attempting to get at, it just doesn’t make sense. A 4th line filler like Beagle isn’t the difference between a Cup. If that’s the case using your logic we should be winning the Cup having him lol. Sure he’s reliable but don’t make him out to be super man or like how Malhotra was for us which as a few notches above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 1 hour ago, oldnews said: I think if Baer gets healthy, the Pearson acquisition might spell the end of Goldobin's window. Probably won't know until the roster needs to be set for next season, but despite the addition of Pearson, it wouldn't surprise me if they go out and add another UFA winger. Same. Especially, as you say, they can't necessarily count on Baer's health (or Goldobin getting his crap together). Don't see us targeting big fish like many on here seem to want but I could see Dzingel as a solid target that gives us at the very least a 2LW if Baer can't go/gets hurt again and some better, legit top 6 depth. Probably need to move another guy or two (especially if we have any prospects earning spots) but something like: Baer/Dzingel, Pettersson, Boeser Dzingel/Baer, Horvat, Leivo/Pearson Pearson/Leivo, Gaudette, Virtanen Roussel, Beagle, Sutter Motte Gives us LOADS of injury and centre depth and Green ability to shuffle wingers as required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 hours ago, ilduce39 said: That’s a lot of hindsight and ignoring the age difference between Sutter/Baertschi and guys like Richardson/Vrbata. Of course it's hindsight. That's how to evaluate past decisions. I see this stated all the time as if it automatically discredits a point, but when you're reviewing that's exactly what you do. I mean is that would people state when there boss is going over there quarterly review..... "Well you've made some decisions that didn't turn out and have cost the company a lot of money". "Come on boss, that's a lot of hindsight" And on top of that every move good and bad, is using hindsight. "In hindsight EP looks like a better pick than Vilardi" should that discredit JB's decision to make that choice? NO. 3 hours ago, ilduce39 said: The timelines are also wonky - Roussel wasn’t available when we acquired Dorsett. Add in that Dorsett would likely still be with the club were it not for injury. I'm not stating those players exactly, i'm just pointing out that these types can be signed in free agency. All these players are a dime a dozen and the league is filled with similar skill sets. If you really want to get picky about each years, Derek MacKenzie, Shawn Thornton or heck Darren Archibald or Zack Kassian who was already in our system could have filled that type of role. I like what Dorsett brought the guy worked his butt off but that's not a rare trait in this league. 3 hours ago, ilduce39 said: If your point is that JB could have shuffled the roster without moving any picks, I guess he could have. That's exactly my point and I believe the majority of peoples point. None of the players we had traded draft picks for, have amounted to any more impact on our roster than what we could have picked up through free agency, without the loss of valuable rebuilding assets. 3 hours ago, ilduce39 said: I think our team is stronger with a healthy Sutter, Baertschi and Dorsett though. Stronger than what? Would our roster be that much better with Sutter and Dorsett vs there UFA counter parts of Beagle and Roussel? I'm not so sure about that. 3 hours ago, ilduce39 said: If Pearson sticks with Horvat that also helps to mitigate the Gudbranson cost. Personally I'd rather McCann alone than either, and that's ignoring the picks we added in. 3 hours ago, ilduce39 said: So.. we could have done it without moving picks, but there was some value in some of those moves. Sure their was "some" value, but not near as much as the alternative. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Of course it's hindsight. That's how to evaluate past decisions. I see this stated all the time as if it automatically discredits a point, but when you're reviewing that's exactly what you do. I mean is that would people state when there boss is going over there quarterly review..... "Well you've made some decisions that didn't turn out and have cost the company a lot of money". "Come on boss, that's a lot of hindsight" And on top of that every move good and bad, is using hindsight. "In hindsight EP looks like a better pick than Vilardi" should that discredit JB's decision to make that choice? NO. It’s brought up because when you’re nit picking over the loss of low-probability “assets” it’s worth mentioning that pointing out that “mistakes” are the norm and it’s way easier to evaluate the correct course of action in hindsight than in the moment. You're referencing Emerson Etem who was traded for (Jensen) and a 6th as poor asset management. In hindsight, yeah the Canucks could have avoided that move. At the moment, JB probably knew it was a long shot. Jensen was also a long shot. A 6th round pick is a long shot. The Canucks got way more mileage out of Sutter, Dorsett, Gudbranson than what you’d expect for all the picks given up to acquire them. You’re bringing up a nothingburger from 4 years ago, so yeah if my boss brought up a long shot “mistake” that cost the company next to nothing four years ago I’d think he was an idiot for wasting my time. If he wanted me fired for stuff I did 4-5 years ago (in the open) I’d think he was going senile. 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: That's exactly my point and I believe the majority of peoples point. None of the players we had traded draft picks for, have amounted to any more impact on our roster than what we could have picked up through free agency, without the loss of valuable rebuilding assets. Yeah, I get the point. I disagree with the assertion that it’s really hampered the rebuilding effort. There needs to be a margin for error when assessing a GM, sports never go perfectly. Furthermore, it was years ago and we’ve largely stopped making those moves. I think it’s because we have reasonable young NHL-level depth rather than any lingering buyers remorse. In any case, it’s not really an issue anymore. Edited March 24, 2019 by ilduce39 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 32 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: It’s brought up because when you’re nit picking over the loss of low-probability “assets” it’s worth mentioning that pointing out that “mistakes” are the norm and it’s way easier to evaluate the correct course of action in hindsight than in the moment. This is what evaluation is about, looking over the past moves and determining if they were the right or wrong moves, and then taking those learnings and applying them to future decisions This isn't just a hockey outlook this is something that should be done in life. These low-probability assets are essential to building a cup winner. 32 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: You're referencing Emerson Etem who was traded for (Jensen) and a 6th as poor asset management. In hindsight, yeah the Canucks could have avoided that move. At the moment, JB probably knew it was a long shot. Jensen was also a long shot. A 6th round pick is a long shot. So, because it has a low impact it should never be mentioned? Individually those picks are long shots, but once you start to add all of them up, the value lost starts to rise. 32 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: The Canucks got way more mileage out of Sutter, Dorsett, Gudbranson than what you’d expect for all the picks given up to acquire them. Picks are about increasing the opportunity to finding that golden nugget. The goal to building an elite team is about doing so with elite assets, while at the same time of considering the cap ceiling, which is why building through the draft is the most successful way to accomplish this. That is why our very own GM has stated this exact same sentiment. 32 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: You’re bringing up a nothingburger from 4 years ago, so yeah if my boss brought up a long shot “mistake” that cost the company next to nothing four years ago I’d think he was an idiot for wasting my time. If he wanted me fired for stuff I did 4-5 years ago (in the open) I’d think he was going senile. Yeah, I get the point. I disagree with the assertion that it’s really hampered the rebuilding effort. There needs to be a margin for error when assessing a GM, sports never go perfectly. Furthermore, it was years ago and we’ve largely stopped making those moves. I think it’s because we have reasonable young NHL-level depth rather than any lingering buyers remorse. In any case, it’s not really an issue anymore. I've listed the all assets lost, if you think they cost us next to nothing then I'd say you're the senile one. We have pissed away an awful lot of picks in the first 24 months and we were a team that was supposed to be rebuilding. People like to pretend it was all hunky dory and needed to do but there's a reason why the hockey world was confused in most of those decision. Our young NHL level depth is the result of those limited low-probability draft picks, it only took us 4 years to reach that point. Imagine how much quicker we'd have reached it has we not traded away all those assets....AKA like i've been saying, moving out all those picks set the rebuild was set back a few years.. This also has zero to do with anyone getting fired. All I did was join the discussion on assets moved, i've never once stated he needed to be let go. If that's how you interpreted my post then you need to tone down the emotionally connection to this team. It's not all in or nothing. People are allowed to have opinions that aren't alway going to be glowing positive because as you say no one is ever perfect, it doesn't mean they are haters and want the guy on the next plane out of town.. If you don't like having discussions about the past or think it's pointless, then what are you doing entering the threads that are discussing them? and furthermore if the moves are so pointless why do you feel the need to comment and defend them all the time, because all you are doing is keeping the "pointless" conversation alive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Generational.EP40 said: Well yea, obviously there’s role players in all sports no one denies that. And how are you comparing Gaudette to Beagle - a role player? Gaudette is the most recent Hobey Baker winner. He has serious skills to be a game changer NOT as some “filler”...I just don’t get what you’re attempting to get at, it just doesn’t make sense. A 4th line filler like Beagle isn’t the difference between a Cup. If that’s the case using your logic we should be winning the Cup having him lol. Sure he’s reliable but don’t make him out to be super man or like how Malhotra was for us which as a few notches above. Gaudette, a Hobey Baker winner yes, but just starting out in the league. Give him a chance to succeed. Let him learn/get used to the NHL... You see Beagle a filler, I see a role player. A strong Centreman, who is very good at face offs. Who plays a lot of D-Zone minutes, Who brings it every game... Exactly what you want mentoring a young player like Gaudette. Could be fun to ask Caps fans, who is the better player between Beagle and Dowd. By that logic, Caps are winning the cup again, as it doesn't matter, who is on the bottom line... (and before you respond, yes of course the top six are more important) I don't say, he is Superman, I say he is a better Centre than you give him credit for... We are going around circles here. I don't think neither Dorsett or Beagle are crap. If you think so, good for you... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoosh Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) I didn’t know I posessed this much willpower. I read the whole first page of this topic. Have to say that I am surprised about the lack of general hockey knowledge displayed in the OP rant. I might now seem like I cracked under pressure and seem like a spineless creature for skipping pages 2-36 and jumped to the last page. I almost disgust myself for that, so you I know. By doing this I made myself vulnerable to the fact that I don’t now posess all the required information to make this statement/question. But I’ll do it anyways... How is it possible that with that kind of a start to a topic, have the members on this board let this discussion go on for 37 pages? As I’ve mentioned on a few occasions in the past, I thought CDC was already bat crazy back in 2007 or so. Hindsight and all, but I’d be happy with that these days and I’d like to take back all the negative words that I layed out about the level of things back then. Edited March 24, 2019 by Spoosh 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomatoes11 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 On 3/22/2019 at 4:18 PM, Warhippy said: You can ignore the rest of my post because you know you have literally nothing. You're the guy who claimed that Shinkaruk was an AHL leading scorer. You can ignore the rest because you've literally nothing you can say because you've outed yourself for knowing less than Gudbranson in a high pressure play He was, I can’t make that stuff up bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomatoes11 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 On 3/22/2019 at 4:18 PM, Warhippy said: In fact? OK. Post the "fact" Um half the guys picked up on waivers and signed in free agency are better than the guys we gave up picks for. Kincaid is much much much much much better than that mzarek or other guy we traded a 7th end for. And the other goalie we lost on waivers is better than him too. Plenty of more examples if you just open your Benning lover eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomatoes11 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) On 3/22/2019 at 9:25 PM, spook007 said: Dorsett crap? .... for the price of peanuts, we had a player, who was willing to stand up to anyone... What garbage to say. At the moment we've got nobody, who comes to the aid of the young ones... Dorsett was a masterstroke by JB during our rebuild. Really sad he had to retire. We wouldn't have all the treads about lack of response, had he still been playing... And lets see Caps win another SC before we decide, how easily Caps replaced Beagle..... Are you for real saying that Beagle is the reason they have a cup? Lol they replaced him just fine with Dowd, one of our rejects, as in the machine and gears are operating just as smoothly without Beagle. If that machine can repeat in the next few years is a different story now that it’s older, but it runs fine without beagle obviously. And yes Dorsett is completely uneccesary when we shouldn’t even be looking at expending assets on role players and supporting cast when our core is not completely in place or designed yet. That’s like buying a computer tower before knowing what the motherboard is. No matter how nice the tower you think it is, I personally don’t see Dorsett as anything remotely worth a 3rd, it’s useless right now. Edited March 24, 2019 by Tomatoes11 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now