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Why its a mistake to spend huge $$$ on a big name Defenseman in 2019

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1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Ditto.  I think Tryamkin is an upgrade on the aging Edler, and Stecher is now better than Tanev,  it’s okay to move on from those old and decrepit players.  Not that there’d anything wrong with being old and decrepit.  Hahaha 

Ya, I think Tanev can be traded without hurting the team at all as long as Benning brings in the right replacement and I think Myers is the perfect guy for that role. 

 

Tryamkin is damn good but not at Edler's level yet. Edler is still a legit #2 with the right partner.

 

That said, having Tryamkin and Myers size and toughness on the same blueline would be intimidating, to say the least.

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3 hours ago, ilduce39 said:

I don’t disagree.  Although, I’d be fine if contract juggling allowed Tanev to still be with us, adding a top 4 RHD is a must.

 

The kids are still playing hard and Bo has a playoff series to his credit but there’s only so much losing you can take until that stink won’t wash out.

that would be an alternative, I don't disagree, but that's still signing a top 4 UFA.

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3 hours ago, aGENT said:

If we can't get decent value for him (likely can't this summer... but never say never), I'd rather see if surrounding him with more and better depth and moving him down the depth chart to third pair might be enough to keep him healthier and up his trade value. 

 

Benning can keep his finger on the trade talk pulse and the minute he strings a healthy 5 games together and there's a trade available for SOME value, pull the damned trigger!

 

If he does still have injuries, we have lots of prospects who should be able to fill in (Juolevi, Sautner, Brisebois etc) and get them NHL time.

 

Worst case we move him for roughly the same peanuts next TDL instead or he walks and we lose the extra 6th rounder :rolleyes:

 

This team desperately needs MORE capable D depth, not less IMO. It's arguably the largest contributor to our injury woes.

 

But by all means if we can get reasonable value this summer, by all means Benning should pull the trigger. That we can agree on.

 

Sign UFA replacement, then trade.  Moving him down the depth chart is an option, I agree.  However, it comes at the risk of injury in the process, and hurting the team.

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Tend to agree with the OP for the most part. 

 

While FA signings can improve your past draft or asset management errors it's pretty risky unless you find a legit player who is honestly wanting to play for your team and signs a fair market contract.

 

Those players are few and far between 

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For all the Tanev trade debate, I'd suggest Ottawa(at draft).

 

Retain 1.5 mill on Tan-man's last season(Melnyk is a cheap pr*ck..he'll gamble on CT's health). They likely want to finish low for at least one more yr.

 

Return: Ceci(RFA) Ottawa fans trash him, so just sign him for a yr. Can test whether he's competent, & that bridges us to Tryamkin's contract(possibly) ending in Russia.

They add a pick(2nd or 3rd???). I guess if we retain more $% on Tanev, it improves the added pick(or prospect).

 

^I think this is the model we'd have to shape a Tanev deal. Make the returning pick a 2020 one, so it's conditional on game numbers he can play. It's not rocket science..just make it fair/commensurate for both sides.

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I have a question or two.  I dont fully agree or disagree with the OP.  

 

First, any real help to our blue line is desperately needed and it should be looked at from any source.  

 

1 What happens if Trymakin doesn't come back this off season and JB does not sign Myers or any other significant FA on defence this offseason?   Is this team going to go into next season with this defence?  Is that advisable, would the fans, players and ownership accept this?

 

2.  What is the downside if signing Myers if he was willing?  I dont think RK is worth it, nor do we need Gardiner.  That guy is a train wreck and at 7m, I would think that is a anchor.  

 

A 7m cap hit.  Well we have expiring contracts.  Tanev is heading out by next season.  Having Myers would make some current d men expendable.  

 

Is he worth 7m, well truly no one is, putting aside my socialist POV for hockey, to this team, YES.  If that is what it takes, yes.  

 

That is 1 m over what it should be.  He is 29, solid in his own end and good for 30 points.  He would be our best d man on most nights, giving Edler (he is getting resigned) support.  He would also take the burden off of Tanev, making him hopefuly more injury resistant in a trade/contract year.  

 

If we get Trymakin back, he is going to cost 3.5 to 4 m without the proven track record.  I would be very happy if that was to happen.  So many weird things about Trymakin, he is an enigma and until it happens, I wouldn't count on it.  

 

So what if we sign Myers and then Trymakin comes back... throw a party people, our defence has been restored and say goodbye to some dead weight.  

 

We currently spend very little on defence and goal.  Our top paid player is Eriksson.  Yes we need to be rid of him, but other than Sutter being a bit too much too (someone else to move) we have 2 ELC's on offence, potentially 2 ELC's on defence with one more on the way, a rookie back up and I don't see Brock going for more than 6.5m.  The reminaing contracts are all decent or above average.  

 

We have cap space and we will continue to bring in young players as long as JB is drafting for us, keeping our higher cap contracts manageable.  

 

By comparison, look at SJ, EK, Palvelski, Burns combined, make more than our entire defence.  

 

We can afford to spend on an FA, we really need to improve our defence so guys like Hughes, OJ and Woo can be effective.  We dont spend nearly enough on defence and with JB's drafting, we should be able to spend more at this point on a player cause we need him more than anyone else.  

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, GreyHatnDart said:

Loui Eriksson wasn’t a “desperation signing”, he was coming off a 30 goal season and they were trying to find a winger to play with the Sedins, and he was a proven commodity with them based on them playing together internationally. Obviously he hasn’t scored like management had expected but desperation it was not. 

 

I truly don’t think Karlsson will be worth it in the long run, at least at this point in the rebuild. No thanks to 12m per for the next 7 years. 

 

So, a player who a lot of people describe as a bust (not my opinion, but many others), and a player who can’t crack the starting lineup on a consistent basis is worth a top pairing D? I’m surprised JB hasn’t pulled the trigger yet and got us Hedman and Doughty by making those trades then. :rolleyes:

I didn't say Hedman and Doughty , young D is what we are trading for ! Ready for the Jump into the NHL or a young player unhappy with the team he is playing for. Some players do well on a team change. 

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10 hours ago, stawns said:

Sign UFA replacement, then trade.  Moving him down the depth chart is an option, I agree.  However, it comes at the risk of injury in the process, and hurting the team.

Yes, sign a UFA D...but that may be more Stralman or similar and less Karlsson/Myers.

 

IMO, there's less risk in pushing him down the depth chart, adding quality defensive depth and having a shot at raising his trade value than selling him for peanuts and merely replacing him without adding depth.

Edited by aGENT

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Tanev would be fine as a partner with Hughes on the 2nd pairing.  WHEN he gets injured again it will be easier to fill that spot than to fill a top pairing spot.  The question then becomes who would be our top pairing guy on the right side?  Is it Tryamkin?  Does he come back?  If not then what?  That's the dilemma facing JB in the summer.  Getting rid of Gudbranson opened the door to acquire a true top pairing right handed D.  The problem now being who that player will be.  Signing Myers could solve that problem but at a huge cost cap wise.  Karlsson won't come here and would want $11-$12 million if he did come.  There is no one else in free agency who fits the bill.  

 

Our only hope really is that Tryamkin comes back and splits duties with Tanev on the top pairing and comes into his own as a solid 20 minute guy on this team.  If that occurs it gives us the flexibility to go after a guy like Panarin up front.  I'm still not sold on re-signing Edler to a long term deal, as he will want a 4 year term most likely.  I'd rather we fill that spot via trade.  Juolevi is the chip I think.  Hutton and Stecher play well together and we have a few young D on the left side as well who can play that 7th D role and fill in through injury.  I'd love to get a guy like Nikita Zadorov.  I think he is being under utilized in Colorado.  With the Finnish connection in Colorado and the possibility they also draft Kakko, Juolevi might be attractive enough for them to trade the big Russian for.  

 

Zadorov   Tryamkin  would be a dream pairing for me.  They could eat up big minutes together as a shutdown pair with Hughes and Stecher providing the offence on the other two pairings.  Just my 2 cents.  Not that I would want to give up Juolevi at this point, but I just feel that Hutton is on an uptick and is just hitting his prime and plays well with Stecher so no need to interrupt that pairing.  Hutton  Stecher is a pairing that could be together for a long time and I see a Hughes  Woo pairing also in our long term plans.  So Juolevi would need to take over that role on the left side perhaps with Tryamkin.  It might work but I like the size and Russian connection of Zadorov instead as our defence would be quite soft otherwise.

 

Zadorov    Tryamkin

Hughes     Woo

Hutton       Stecher

 

To me those 3 pairings have speed, size, offensive power play abilities, shorthanded abilities and youth.  Throw in Sautner, Brisebois, Rathbone and maybe Brassard and Leves and our depth looks real good.

 

Tanev would obviously partner Hughes for the short term until Woo is ready, so we can keep him around for at least next year and then see what happens next summer.

Edited by Elias Pettersson

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Granted I don't watch Jets games but it sure seems like Jets fans can't wait to get rid of Myers in the offseason. 

 

There's going to be 20 teams looking for a RHD in the offseason so he's going to get overpaid, massively. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, stawns said:

tanev absolutely has to be replaced this summer.  They clearly want Edler back and you can't have two guys who miss that much time as your 1D and 2D.  I've been one of JB's biggest supporters, but if he comes back with both Tanev and Edler, all bets are off for me.  It would be a huge mistake and would, imo, put the team on the Oikers trajectory, never being able to get the kids past the hump and then having to sell off former youth as they get too expensive for what they bring.......then you burn it down and start again......then again.....then again.

You are identifying my biggest fear Stawns. I'm not popular on here for wanting another #8 or better pick this year but I do that in the context of a timeline that puts Van into a CUP competitive position in 3 years. I'm on record of wanting to move Tanev for some time. IMHO you cannot tie up so much TOI in a player like Tanev. Edler is the key transition d-man so re-sign him with the timeline in mind. Make some room for Hughes, Sautner, Brisbois and Joulevi by X-mass. A UFA d-man sounds good but the term and cost is a tad scary.  

 

I do expect the Canucks to make playoffs next year. A big question is whether Stecher and Hutton can handle 2nd pairing roles next year. They have shown a lot of improvement this year. If they can then your UFA signing could be a player capable of 2nd pairing TOI but more a 5D. While I think the team makes playoffs the biggest concern is still a development priority and I would not be going out of the way to add players who would take TOI from developing youth. The biggest team issue right now is on the d-side and youth is in the pipeline to address this. The goal tending duo of Markstrom and Demko will play a big role.

 

I understand the concern over a losing mentality but comparing the Oilers to the Canucks culture is a stretch. Lots more going on in Edmonton  than the W/L column. IMO Vancouver has more depth and better management.    

Edited by Boudrias

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i can agree with moving tanev, but i’ld be interested to know how? do we buy him out; send him to the minors or try to find a team that wants an oft injured d-man that he will agree to go to? how much salary would we have to pay? 

i don’t agree with signing a high cost d-man, but rather a healthier version of tanev to settle down guys like hughes and juolevi.  otherwise, i could see us keeping tanev until woo or another right shot d-man is signed.

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11 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

i can agree with moving tanev, but i’ld be interested to know how? do we buy him out; send him to the minors or try to find a team that wants an oft injured d-man that he will agree to go to? how much salary would we have to pay? 

 i don’t agree with signing a high cost d-man, but rather a healthier version of tanev to settle down guys like hughes and juolevi.  otherwise, i could see us keeping tanev until woo or another right shot d-man is signed.

he's only got a year left on his deal, it would be no issue retaining salary on him.  

 

There is no Tanev replacement coming any time soon.  Hughes, OJ and Woo are a long way off from filling Tanev's shoes, and I don't necessarily see any of them in the lineup next season.  I see no alternative to signing a top 4 UFA dman and getting rid of Tanev, or phasing him out in the 4-6 spot next year until they can move him.  .  

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There are so many CDCers who want to trade Tanev. All the usual posters who I always disagree with, but also the majority of posters who I like/ agree with and enjoy their input. Don't know why I'm alone in the wilderness here, but I'm absolutely against trading Tanev. The 'nucks are at their best when he's playing. He will garner almost zero in a trade. Replacing his talent will be very, very, very expensive. Yes....cue the never ending injury stories ( all true ), but JB has to get a RHD who can play those hard minutes to alleviate some of those 'injury likely' times, ie PK-ing ! Always the optimist, I cross my fingers that his injuries are behind him. A healthy Tanev is a top pairing d-man for years to come.

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2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Tanev would be fine as a partner with Hughes on the 2nd pairing.  WHEN he gets injured again it will be easier to fill that spot than to fill a top pairing spot.  The question then becomes who would be our top pairing guy on the right side?  Is it Tryamkin?  Does he come back?  If not then what?  That's the dilemma facing JB in the summer.  Getting rid of Gudbranson opened the door to acquire a true top pairing right handed D.  The problem now being who that player will be.  Signing Myers could solve that problem but at a huge cost cap wise.  Karlsson won't come here and would want $11-$12 million if he did come.  There is no one else in free agency who fits the bill.  

 

Our only hope really is that Tryamkin comes back and splits duties with Tanev on the top pairing and comes into his own as a solid 20 minute guy on this team. 

Right now, 'unfortunately', that's probably Stecher, our current 'best' right D.

 

Tryamkin, if he ever comes back (let alone one year early) was a solid #4-#5D with #3D upside. Likely a bit much to ask him to play 1st pair (and excel anyway).

 

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Juolevi is the chip I think. 

Big fat NO on trading Juolevi as well. If anything, I'd look at selling high on a Hutton '+' package (particularly if Tryamkin was indeed coming back) for a right D (perhaps a guy like Pesce out of Carolina).

 

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Zadorov    Tryamkin

Hughes     Woo

Hutton       Stecher

Sorry but that's a downgrade on our current D in everything but age.

Edited by aGENT
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6 minutes ago, SingleThorn said:

There are so many CDCers who want to trade Tanev. All the usual posters who I always disagree with, but also the majority of posters who I like/ agree with and enjoy their input. Don't know why I'm alone in the wilderness here, but I'm absolutely against trading Tanev. The 'nucks are at their best when he's playing. He will garner almost zero in a trade. Replacing his talent will be very, very, very expensive. Yes....cue the never ending injury stories ( all true ), but JB has to get a RHD who can play those hard minutes to alleviate some of those 'injury likely' times, ie PK-ing ! Always the optimist, I cross my fingers that his injuries are behind him. A healthy Tanev is a top pairing d-man for years to come.

I agree there's no sense in trading him for peanuts but signing say Stralman for 2-3 years would allow us to spread some of that hard minute burden around, hopefully keep him healthier/increase his trade value, and make moving him more palatable.

 

Regardless, don't see him here past his current contract, however the rest of the tale shakes out.

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38 minutes ago, stawns said:

he's only got a year left on his deal, it would be no issue retaining salary on him.  

 

There is no Tanev replacement coming any time soon.  Hughes, OJ and Woo are a long way off from filling Tanev's shoes, and I don't necessarily see any of them in the lineup next season.  I see no alternative to signing a top 4 UFA dman and getting rid of Tanev, or phasing him out in the 4-6 spot next year until they can move him.  .  

What would be your ufa dman target list?

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1 hour ago, riffraff said:

What would be your ufa dman target list?

I'm not so much on the Karlsson boat, but I wouldn't complain about it either. 

 

Myers has to be their main target, imo.  He'd make a very formidable, minute munching 1st pairing with Edler and has a booming shot from the point.  He is also a solid leader and would a great addition to the leadership group.  Of course, like all UFA's, he'll be overpaid with too much term, but that's the nature of the market and the Canucks are not in a great spot to quibble about those things, imo.  They need a top pairing dman for the next three years, and I don't see a better candidate.

 

Stralman would probably be my plan B, and that would probably necessitate keeping Tanev, but shuffling him down the depth chart.  He's a solid defensive dman, and wouldn't be a huge downgrade on offense.  Stralman will be cheaper, with less term......but he's much older and is likely done after this contract.  

 

I would also consider Ben Lovejoy or Adam McQuaid as well.  Both are solid, but unspectacular players.  You know what you get with them, and they are pretty consistent.  McQuaid definitely replaces the toughness lost with Guddy.......well, part of it.  I'd even consider one of these two in addition to a bigger signing on the right side.

 

Another way to go would be to go after Stralman and Gardiner and then sell high on Hutton.

Edited by stawns
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25 minutes ago, stawns said:

I'm not so much on the Karlsson boat, but I wouldn't complain about it either. 

 

Myers has to be their main target, imo.  He'd make a very formidable, minute munching 1st pairing with Edler and has a booming shot from the point.  He is also a solid leader and would a great addition to the leadership group.  Of course, like all UFA's, he'll be overpaid with too much term, but that's the nature of the market and the Canucks are not in a great spot to quibble about those things, imo.  They need a top pairing dman for the next three years, and I don't see a better candidate.

 

Stralman would probably be my plan B, and that would probably necessitate keeping Tanev, but shuffling him down the depth chart.  He's a solid defensive dman, and wouldn't be a huge downgrade on offense.  Stralman will be cheaper, with less term......but he's much older and is likely done after this contract.  

 

I would also consider Ben Lovejoy or Adam McQuaid as well.  Both are solid, but unspectacular players.  You know what you get with them, and they are pretty consistent.  McQuaid definitely replaces the toughness lost with Guddy.......well, part of it.  I'd even consider one of these two in addition to a bigger signing on the right side.

 

Another way to go would be to go after Stralman and Gardiner and then sell high on Hutton.

I don’t disagree with anything you have said here. I would like to add that term and money have to be considered on any signing. UFA’s of any quality are always a risk and typically get our a little over anyone else. Karl’s son would be great but likely too expensive with our youth getting paid in the next couple years. Myers at the right cost may fit in a little better, but I’d love to see any quality D man who wants to play here. We are looking for another Hamuis story. I do think we need to add a D for next season, just don’t want to have another Louie. 

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When it comes to ufa signings, I have no faith in JB.

I know it's virtually impossible, but Aquaman should put a leash on JB and keep his checkbook in his pocket this year.

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