Sign in to follow this  
IBatch

Canucks Rank 3 in THN Future Watch

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Markstrom was #1 about 9 or 10 years back if I recall.

He was the first ranked goalie (for two years)  if memory serves me right the only goalies to earn that honours were Luongo (two years in a row) and Price...since they started this back in 94...somewhere in my basement I have a box  I might be wrong and I’m too lazy to try and google it, definitely he was a high ranked prospect and considered the best goalie not in the NHL for a couple years at one point.  Biggest miss ever was Filatov ... second Brayden Schenn (both ranked #1).   But a glance back is a murderers row of stars and HHOFers, starting with Forsberg.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

I'm sure Brackett has a lot to do with it but he's Benning's guy and he gets direction from the top so to suggest that Benning shouldn't get credit there is silly.

It is a group of guys and the head honcho gets paid to take the praise and take the boos.  Brackett is a GM in waiting and IMO has been elevated as a reward for his good work.   JB, Brackett and the scouting dept as a whole deserve a big shout.  

 

As for critical reactions from one draft in particular.  Sooner or later this team had to start addressing its Achilles heal.  Defence.  

 

This club hadn't drafted a d man in the 1sr round for a decade and the last one died.  RiP Bourdon.  Of our top internally picked or signed amature players on defence, Edler is the highest drafted in the 3rd round.  

 

You cannot keep counting on finding gems, you have to actually put high value picks into getting high value prospects.  It poses a risk but the risk of not dealing with the issue will doom any future club.  

 

 

12 hours ago, GreyHatnDart said:

I suppose the issue I take with some people’s opinions is they say Brackett is the reason we draft well but then blame Benning for Juolevi over Tkachuk :rolleyes:

 

  • Hydration 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Yeah, I think he still weights quite heavily in on the 2nd round pick as well and just knows less and less the further the draft goes (as is the norm).

Recently re-watched last year's draft day video, JB nixes the option of picking a goalie in the 3rd round. I was then surprised that he seemed to know almost nothing about Madden. He seemed to 'discuss', but with minimal demands on Brackett. Those videos are so heavily edited that it's hard to get anything except the 'team friendly' version of draft day ! ( still enjoy the vids, but take them with a grain of salt )

  • Hydration 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, RetroCanuck said:

haha Gillis may not be the guy you want to be quoting here.

 

Gillis and his drafting team were absolutely terrible. Maybe he should have had more influence....

He has very good insight, say what you will about him. In his time here he had no reason to care about the draft. We were a playoff team looking to get over the hump into contender status. He helped round out the team into a contender. Why would he care about the picks in 25-30 spot? And it's true, GMs have scouting staffs for a reason. Sure, in hindsight you can say "sure would have been nice if he had a better scouting staff" but hey, we didn't care about the draft when we were battling in the playoffs every year.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Warhippy said:

I wish someone could post Vancouvers prospect ratings from 2012 to now.

 

Would be really interesting to see

 

2012

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2012/12/06/the-top-20-canucks-prospects-an-update-part-iv/

 

1. Zach Kassian

2. Eddie Lack

3. Niklas Jensen

4. Brendan Gaunce 

5. Jordan Schroeder

6. Kevin Connauton

7. Frank Corrado

8. Joseph LaBate

9. Alexander Mallet

10. Joe Cannata

 

2019

  1. Quinn Hughes
  2. Tyler Madden
  3. Thatcher Demko
  4. Olli Juolevi
  5. Adam Gaudette
  6. Kole Lind
  7. Michael DiPietro
  8. Jonah Gadjovich
  9. Guillaume Brisebois
  10. Petrus Palmu
  11. Jet Woo
  12. Linus Karlsson

This in no way is an order of importance, but should still show how good we have it now. Just a quick table to show. I can add in between years later when I'm done work.

Edited by MikeyBoy44
  • Thanks 3
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, MikeyBoy44 said:

 

2012

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2012/12/06/the-top-20-canucks-prospects-an-update-part-iv/

 

1. Zach Kassian

2. Eddie Lack

3. Niklas Jensen

4. Brendan Gaunce 

5. Jordan Schroeder

6. Kevin Connauton

7. Frank Corrado

8. Joseph LaBate

9. Alexander Mallet

10. Joe Cannata

 

2019

  1. Thatcher Demko
  2. Olli Juolevi
  3. Adam Gaudette
  4. Kole Lind
  5. Michael DiPietro
  6. Jonah Gadjovich
  7. Guillaume Brisebois
  8. Petrus Palmu
  9. Jet Woo
  10. Linus Karlsson

This in no way is an order of importance, but should still show how good we have it now. Just a quick table to show. I can add in between years later when I'm done work.

You forgot Quinn Hughes lol.. .. Tyler Madden should be on that list too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, 10pavelbure96 said:

You forgot Quinn Hughes lol.. .. Tyler Madden should be on that list too

Haha good call. Sorry it was made real quick while I'm at work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, IBatch said:

Future Watch is exclusive to THN, where they compile a panel of NHL scouts and grade 21 and unders including prospects which they also list and rank (prospects only) top ten per franchise.  A few years ago they came out with an addition that predicted the Winnipeg Jets would become a contender and the team to beat in the West, even going as far as to say they had the framework of a dynasty.  Back then they hadn’t seen much of any playoff action and it could be easily laughed off as bold prediction, but now there is a lot of back slapping (and they like to bring it up when it’s pertinent).

 

Hughes comes in as their second best ranked drafted prospect in the world, behind (already drafted) Cale Makar who has the honours of the best one in the world at the moment.   It should be noted that they don’t consider a guy a NHLer until they truly makes a difference so Carter Hart is no longer on the list but guys like Demko (35), Zadina (7) and Batherson (27) are still ranked.  

 

My pick last year would have been Bouchard, he’s currently 13, one spot behind Boqvist.  Ugh what do I know. 

 

Vancouver was ranked third overall and given an A- grade, way up from last year.  Despite Pettersson, Gaudette and Boeser playing meaningful minutes who all were previously in the top one hundred (last year EP was ranked 2 BTW) , we still have four players ranked in the top hundred Hughes 2, Demko 35 (and the third best goalie behind Samsanov in WSH), OJ 66 (slipped from 23 last year ), and new comer Madden at 70 which was around where they ranked Hobey Baker Award winner  Gaudette last year. 

 

THN had nothing but glowing remarks for us, stating that our prospect pool and under 21ers is tailor made for today’s game.  Our fifth ranked prospect Dipietro just missed the top hundred cut, if he didn’t we’d be the only team with five in the ranking.  Most teams only have two or three in the top hundred, Vegas for example for a C+ ranked 25th overall and  has three guys but avoided a worse ranking on the strength of Glass ranked 3rd best prospect.  

 

What does this mean?   PHI ranked number one, TO number two (one becuase the troops are still coming, the other because they are already there) and  Vancouver number three... what it’s designed to do is provide a view for the future, which is why it’s called future watch, and if you look back at their previous years they’ve done an outstanding job of predicating what has actually happened.

 

The fact that an Eastern based publishment is giving us this many props is encouraging, and it definitely gives us hope for the future.  I for one was pleasantly surprised, I figured we’d be a little higher than last year (9)... and to think in 2015 we ranked 19 and a two years before that DFL.  

 

This is a big validation for Benning and his team.  The best teams in the future have the best 21 and unders, this is almost factual (sure there are outliers but even those teams end up not bad) and maybe we should be more patient with Benning and a little less critical of the mishaps. Me included.

 

As an aside  for those that rank Kakko above Hughes, it’s official THN most recent ranking has Hughes as the undeniable best draft pick available in 2019.  That leaves Sportsnet as the only major source the have Kakko above him. Good news for us if we win the lottery, no   reason (or doubt) not to pick Quins brother. Not that Kakko is a chump, he’s awesome too.

 

I’ve been supporting Benning mostly becuase he’s fixing an awful prospect pool, doesn’t mean he’s the best GM we could have (drafting Tryamkin and not making it easier for him, Palmu and Dahlen are three things that grate on me the most, LE is fine in comparison as it won’t interfere with CAP space or our pool) ... but maybe it’s time I take a break from bringing that up or remarking about it.  Others have preached patience and so have I, after reading this my viewpoint shifted a little more into the patience side of things again.  

 

IF Hughes makes the impact they expect of him, and the other guys also make it and make a difference, we already have what we need to contend (not even best case, the parts are there IF most of them work out).  

 

 Look at the impact Markstrom and EP have had, Demko is predicted to be a good-great number one and DiPietro had a glowing .951 sp and GAA of 1.23 in the WJs, definitely not team Canada’s weak spot..goaltending looks bright going forward for a long time.

 

This years draft could push us over the top..Benning IS punching above his draft spot too, he’s a plus four (9th) which means even though our average draft position over the part four years is 7 he’s drafring like we have been getting all third overalls during that time span.  Given where we are drafting thats outstanding.  TB leads the pack drafting an average of 24th overall and ranking like they draft 8th each time.   If you look at their under 21ers and their pool it’s not hard to understand why...and they just about set a record for least amount of games before winning the presidents trophy.   Hopefully that can be us in time (especially we get the same cap breaks they do ha ha).  

 

Today at least, not much to complain about.  What are your thoughts about our 21 and unders, do you think THN got it right (by extension it means we will have the third best core when they all reach their prime), or not?

Recently, I was checking the Oilers roster during their dynasty years. And I think one formula for building a contender that can work well for our team is to emulate them. That is, to form a core with 4 star players + 1 offensive dman + a good goalie. And of course, depth surrounding the core is key to winning these days.

 

Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, Kurri + Coffey + Fuhr. 

 

Petey, Horvat, Boeser, ? + Hughes + Demko.

 

We need one more marquee player, and this is the draft to add that player. Hoping for J. Hughes or Kakko but I'm sure there are other good options and that JB will find one.

 

We have Gaud, Virt, Juolevi, Madden, DiPietro, Woo as players that seem like will have a great shot at making the NHL sometime in the near future if they haven't made it already (Gaud and Virt).

 

Sign a UFA to compliment the roster and we should be good to go. Whether we win the championship or not will depend on how high EP goes and who gets to fill the remaining spot up front. If we find that to be Hughes or Kakko, we might as well plan a parade from then. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

Horvat was pretty good pick. But overall MG could have definitely done better.

 

Had kes and Schneider in this post but obviously wrong. 

Overall, I still think that Gillis was one of the best GMs our team ever had. In hindsight, his drafting record does not look good, but some of it was pure luck. Gillis was trading picks to add to a contending team (which was the proper course of action at the time), and the picks he kept were generally very late.

 

2008 - For his first pick, in the draft+1 season, Hodgson looked like an absolute steal. Unfortunately, he had an undetected chronic condition, which led to injury trouble and his eventual early retirement. There's no way to foresee that. For his second pick, Sauve had some upside, but a car accident derailed his development. Then he didn't pick until the 5th round, 131st overall, so his last 3 picks were longshots at best. At the time, spending a 7th round pick to draft his goalie coach's son seemed like a waste. However, even though Ian Clark left later, his ties to the organization remained strong, so he came back, and has turned Markstrom into a legit starter. So maybe that pick actually did provide some value?

 

2009 - Schroeder was a decent bet at 22nd overall, he just didn't pan out. Only 3 of the 10 players chosen after him ended up playing more NHL games than him (Johansson, Palmieri, and Despres), so it's not like it was a deep draft teeming with obvious talent. Rodin seems like he had more skill than anyone expected, but his constant injuries prevented him from succeeding in NA. Connauton was a solid 3rd round choice, only 5 other players chosen in that round played more games than him, and 3 of them were chosen near the top of the round.

 

2010 - Although Gillis had 5 picks, they were all late (a 4th, 5th, two 6ths, and a 7th), so they were all crapshoots. Starting at the Patrick McNally pick (115th), only 10 of the last 95 picks of the draft have played 200 games (Chris Wagner, Zach Hyman, John Klingberg, Micheal Ferland, Petr Mrazek, Brendan Gallagher, Dalton Prout, Jesper Fast, Mark Stone, and Frederik Anderson). It would have been nice to land one of them (particularly Gallagher, who played for the Giants), but even with 5 of the 95 picks that's only about a 50% shot.

 

2011 - This was a bad draft, no doubt about it. Gillis had a late 1st, two 3rds, two 4ths, a 5th, 6th, and 7th...but didn't land anyone who panned out.

 

2012 - This was an OK draft, considering we only had 5 picks, and only 2 of them in the first 4 rounds. Gaunce doesn't look great when you think a 1st rounder, but he was 26th overall. Only two of the 10 players chosen after him (Skjei and Pearson) have played more than him, so in comparison he has been decent value. Mallet was a terrible waste of a 2nd round pick, but Gillis made up for it with his next pick, with Ben Hutton at 147th overall.

 

2013 - Horvat was a fantastic pick. Shinkaruk, Cassels, and Subban all showed some promise, but didn't pan out. But in retrospect, 2013 was a pretty weak draft, so a lot of players didn't pan out. Of the 10 players chosen after Shinkaruk, Shea Theodore is making an impact, and Jason Dickinson has some upside, but the rest are fringe/depth guys. Of the 35 picks after Cassels, only 4 guys are regular NHL-ers (Andrighetto, Bjorkstrand,  Wood, and Copp, 21 of them never played an NHL game (including Subban).

 

Benning has so far proven more adept at finding talent at the draft. But so far, from what I've seen, Gillis was better at getting value with his trades and signings.

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Drafting is the way modern dynasties are built (look and Chicago, L.A. And Pittsburgh), and fortunately Benning and Judd Brackett are excellent scouts that have got us some great pieces. I have the utmost faith that they will draft another star player in this years draft regardless of when we pick. 

 

Exciting times ahead! 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

GM's have many duties but I still say the most important is drafting and developing.

In the NHL, sales. Selling seats. Putting bums in the arena. The hockey team is a tool to do that. The direction and use of that tool is determined by the owner.

 

Linden/Benning have done a great job of keeping people buying tickets by selling hope and blaming past GM's.

"Tomorrow we will be better", "Wait until next year", "This player is worth waiting for", "When they play", "The future looks good", "Building slow, the right way" (the last is a laffer, none have ever had success rebuilding or been around).

 

As anyone can see, bums are in the seats, the arena is just about full and for almost five years the local media has been helping sell hockey.

The conversation is about tomorrow and past prospects/saviours forgotten with the last new group.

The team didn't have to achieve anything except not finish DFL

Didn't have to state any kind of plan except "build the right way" what ever that means, up, down, left, right, start, stop, fast, slow, big, small, active, idle.

 

If the owner is interfering then swift action happens. IMO Benning is done and the team is blown up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just realized, at first is was prospect pools and Canucks high ranking and now it is players and prospects under 21 years old. What's next? Prospects and players under 25 years old? Why not the team?

So lets go back and rank just the prospects, those that haven't played in the NHL. What is the rankings for that.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

In the NHL, sales. Selling seats. Putting bums in the arena. The hockey team is a tool to do that. The direction and use of that tool is determined by the owner.

 

Linden/Benning have done a great job of keeping people buying tickets by selling hope and blaming past GM's.

"Tomorrow we will be better", "Wait until next year", "This player is worth waiting for", "When they play", "The future looks good", "Building slow, the right way" (the last is a laffer, none have ever had success rebuilding or been around).

 

As anyone can see, bums are in the seats, the arena is just about full and for almost five years the local media has been helping sell hockey.

The conversation is about tomorrow and past prospects/saviours forgotten with the last new group.

The team didn't have to achieve anything except not finish DFL

Didn't have to state any kind of plan except "build the right way" what ever that means, up, down, left, right, start, stop, fast, slow, big, small, active, idle.

 

If the owner is interfering then swift action happens. IMO Benning is done and the team is blown up.

I have no idea what you're ranting about but carry on.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I just realized, at first is was prospect pools and Canucks high ranking and now it is players and prospects under 21 years old. What's next? Prospects and players under 25 years old? Why not the team?

So lets go back and rank just the prospects, those that haven't played in the NHL. What is the rankings for that.

How can you not see that the future is bright?

Optimism>>>Pessimism 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I just realized, at first is was prospect pools and Canucks high ranking and now it is players and prospects under 21 years old. What's next? Prospects and players under 25 years old? Why not the team?

So lets go back and rank just the prospects, those that haven't played in the NHL. What is the rankings for that.

Keep complaining, u need the mental exercise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:
15 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

GM's have many duties but I still say the most important is drafting and developing.

In the NHL, sales. Selling seats. Putting bums in the arena. The hockey team is a tool to do that. The direction and use of that tool is determined by the owner.

 

Linden/Benning have done a great job of keeping people buying tickets by selling hope and blaming past GM's.

"Tomorrow we will be better", "Wait until next year", "This player is worth waiting for", "When they play", "The future looks good", "Building slow, the right way" (the last is a laffer, none have ever had success rebuilding or been around).

 

As anyone can see, bums are in the seats, the arena is just about full and for almost five years the local media has been helping sell hockey.

The conversation is about tomorrow and past prospects/saviours forgotten with the last new group.

The team didn't have to achieve anything except not finish DFL

Didn't have to state any kind of plan except "build the right way" what ever that means, up, down, left, right, start, stop, fast, slow, big, small, active, idle.

 

If the owner is interfering then swift action happens. IMO Benning is done and the team is blown up.

 

10 minutes ago, Monteeun said:

I have no idea what you're ranting about but carry on.

There I included the reference comment for you as you selectively left it out changing the context of the post.

 

11 minutes ago, 10pavelbure96 said:
24 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I just realized, at first is was prospect pools and Canucks high ranking and now it is players and prospects under 21 years old. What's next? Prospects and players under 25 years old? Why not the team?

So lets go back and rank just the prospects, those that haven't played in the NHL. What is the rankings for that.

How can you not see that the future is bright?

Optimism>>>Pessimism

What in that comment is negative? Any negativity would come from looking for negativity. This is a question about changing the goal posts. Since I haven't actually looked at the prospect rankings does your comment mean they are much worse?

14 minutes ago, Monteeun said:

Keep complaining, u need the mental exercise.

Man you are sure negative or have a negative personality looking for something else to blame.

At least I am not making statements like "if we had scored that goal the outcome could have been different" the standard fare for the ordinary fan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, D-Money said:

Overall, I still think that Gillis was one of the best GMs our team ever had. In hindsight, his drafting record does not look good, but some of it was pure luck. Gillis was trading picks to add to a contending team (which was the proper course of action at the time), and the picks he kept were generally very late.

 

Benning has so far proven more adept at finding talent at the draft. But so far, from what I've seen, Gillis was better at getting value with his trades and signings.

While I agree with some of the Gillis sentiments, a big part of any managers job is maintaining and increasing productivity short term while keeping an eye on the future. Gillis did not do that at all. Trading picks is fine but not at the cost of success down the road, which in this case was an abysmal prospect pool.

 

You also said he was better at getting players cheaper, but fail to mention that he was able to do that by attaching NTC’s and NMC’s to said players, thereby lowering their trade value for Benning in the future. So to say Gillis was better at trading is minimizing the impact of the contracts he put in place and the actual harder job he put on Benning to get good value for them. 

 

Benning isn’t immune, the Eriksson signing and the exchange we got for Gudbranson compared to what we paid for him immediately come to mind. End of the day is they had different mandates, and different talents but each had made plenty of mistakes. 

  • Hydration 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, GreyHatnDart said:

While I agree with some of the Gillis sentiments, a big part of any managers job is maintaining and increasing productivity short term while keeping an eye on the future. Gillis did not do that at all. Trading picks is fine but not at the cost of success down the road, which in this case was an abysmal prospect pool.

 

You also said he was better at getting players cheaper, but fail to mention that he was able to do that by attaching NTC’s and NMC’s to said players, thereby lowering their trade value for Benning in the future. So to say Gillis was better at trading is minimizing the impact of the contracts he put in place and the actual harder job he put on Benning to get good value for them. 

 

Benning isn’t immune, the Eriksson signing and the exchange we got for Gudbranson compared to what we paid for him immediately come to mind. End of the day is they had different mandates, and different talents but each had made plenty of mistakes. 

No significant free agent is going to take a discount to be at a certain team, and then not demand some sort of trade protection to ensure he'll stay there. So I don't see how that is some sort of failure on Gillis' part. Either you pay a lot more (hence weakening your team), or the player doesn't sign (hence weakening your team). Getting the player at the same dollar without a clause isn't an option.

 

Even guys like Sutter, Roussel and Beagle have forms of no-trade clauses, and they certainly weren't discounts.

 

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, King Heffy said:

I'd argue Brackett being in charge of the scouting happened because we finally had a GM come in with the experience necessary to evaluate our scouts and make some changes.  Benning identified the right person, and let them run with it.  That's great management, regardless of the industry.

The other important element that Benning established was the criteria for the type of players/people the scouts are to target and draft. Given the teams track record over the last five years, it is safe to assume they target skilled players that have a high hockey IQ and are gamers (last guy in the gym types). I think this has been crucial as it allows the scouts to focus and have a clear goal (plus under this criteria the team is drafting players that most importantly should flourish in the playoffs - which is all that matters in the long run).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.