The Avengers: Endgame Talk

[Zigmund.Palffy]

I watched this last night.. WOW.. JUST WOW.. great way to end it !

 

I was happy about how they ended it...  

[dajusta]

*Big Spoilers*

 

I'd like to start a conversation about the Time Heist.  I would like to critique it in a logical way, not in a movie/entertainment way, but in a LOGICAL way.

 

Here is what happened in the movie first:

 

First Group: Captain America + Iron Man + Ant Man + Professor Hulk go after 3 stones (Mind Stone, Space Stone/Tesseract, Time Stone) Location/Time New York 2012

Second Group: Thor + Rocket go after the Aether (Reality Stone) Location/Time Asgard 2013

Third Group: Black Widow + Hawkeye go after Soul Stone , War Machine + Nebula go after Power Stone (Morag, Vormir 2014)

 

I can understand why the movie set this up on a "entertaining" level, but from a logical perspective it would be interesting to see some changes.

 

Logical Approach:

 

1.  The most unknown infinity stone is the Soul Stone.  No avenger has any experience of it, its location, not even its power.  It wouldn't make sense to send two extremely low powered heroes to go get it on this critical mission (yes black widow and hawkeye are pretty low powered)

2.  Also, Vormir is on a completely different planet.  It is LOGICAL to at least send Rocket or Nebula to Vormir because of their outer outer space planetary experience

3.  So let's say Rocket goes to Vormir, plus another powerful Avenger say Iron Man (who could survive in space with his suit), it makes LOGICAL sense

4.  Out of the two, Rocket and Iron Man would have to sacrifice for the soul stone, I'd say it would be Rocket, but he LOGICALLY make a fight over it (I think Iron Man would kill Rocket in order to continue the mission)

5.  For the NY team, if Iron Man doesn't go, then the team is left to Captain America, Ant Man, and Professor Hulk (either Black Widow or Hawkeye can join)

6.  Professor Hulk goes to the Ancient One to get the Time Stone, I think that went pretty well 

7.  Captain America picking up the Mind Stone with the use of Hail Hydra is pretty clever, so far so good

8.  Relying on Ant Man, Black Widow and Hawkeye to secure the Space Stone/Tesseract? They might not be able to do so... they either have to fight through the 2012 Avengers to get the Space Stone/Tesseract, or steal it under their noses somehow.  Ant Man with the combination of Hawkeye's arrow move again might work.  

9.  For the Asgard team, from the viewer's perspective this was kind of easy.  The only problem was Thor's depression or PTSD.  Who would have been able to get the Aether/Reality Stone while Thor is consoled by his mom?  I could see Black Widow sneaking in pretty well.  If Rocket could sneak in, I'm sure Black Widow could as well.  

10.  Or the most logical approach is for the team to see that Thor is in NO shape or form to actually function on a CRITICAL mission, and he gets benched from the mission, relying on Black Widow to do this mission on her own.  

11.  If Thor DOES get benched, then they free themselves 1 round trip of Pym Particles, and give them to a group that they see might have difficulty, for example one of the NY team members.

12.  If the NY team has an extra round time trip, who will use it in case of their failed mission?  The most reliable would be Captain America.

13.  Captain America wouldn't think to go New Jersey 1970 (that was Iron Man's knowledge)

14.  Considering they already have the Time Stone, and the Mind Stone, he just needed 1 place in time to get the Space/Tesseract

15.  Where would Captain America go to get it?  A place that ONLY CAPTAIN AMERICA knew where the Tesseract is FOR SURE?

16.  Captain America would pick the time when he saw it while fighting Red Skull (end of Captain America 1)

17.  There would be two Captain Americas fighting Red Skull, and our Cap would have to explain to Past Cap why he needs the Tesseract.  Then time jumps back home. 

 

So in the logical approach, these changes were possible:

-Rocket and Iron Man get into a fight on who will sacrifice their soul

-Iron Man would kill Rocket, getting the Soul Stone

-NY team could fail their mission, and not have Tony there to find a back up plan

-Thor gets benched, frees up Pym Particles

-Extra 1 round time trip extra for the NY group, who would use it?

-Captain America uses the extra time jump to get the Tesseract during his first fight with Red Skull (end of Captain America 1)

 

What are your thoughts?

 

[Russ]

On 4/29/2019 at 8:44 AM, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I’m wondering how they’re going to handle Capt Marvel being so powerful in the future.   Actually too powerful.  You run into the same problems making a movie about Superman.  It always seems like a forgone conclusion the hero(heroine) will win because they’re so “super”.

I wonder if they are going to go in a different direction.  Is Hawkeye really going to be the face of the Captain America franchise now?  I can't remember what happens in the comics when he obtained the shield, I never had a chance to read many at all (honestly I thought Bucky was getting the shield, thought he would be a similar/seamless transition so Hawkeye threw me off).  I think we will see more of the spiderman/black panther/etc. story lines and the Avengers story may take a back seat for a handful of years before they assemble the crew again and then I assume it'll be because of a Thanos type enemy.

[Monty]

Watched it yesterday with my brother, which was the real treat.

 

That said, it was “ok.” Paul Rudd had an incredibly strong outing and stole the film in the first 40 minutes, until Chris Hemsworth showed up, who was then the star for the rest of the film. 

 

I did have one main gripe, but not enough for me to hate the movie. In Infinity War, when Thanos had 4 of the stones, the 5, and then 6 of them, he was almost beaten by several Avengers together, and some one on one. In this movie, he had none and put up a far greater fight. The “logic” there doesn’t make sense. Essentially, one Avenger would have decimated him in this movie, if he had a more difficult time with the stones taking them on last film. It’s a gripe, and the movie’s biggest flaw. But otherwise, good.

[canuckistani]

7 hours ago, Monty said:

Watched it yesterday with my brother, which was the real treat.

 

That said, it was “ok.” Paul Rudd had an incredibly strong outing and stole the film in the first 40 minutes, until Chris Hemsworth showed up, who was then the star for the rest of the film. 

 

I did have one main gripe, but not enough for me to hate the movie. In Infinity War, when Thanos had 4 of the stones, the 5, and then 6 of them, he was almost beaten by several Avengers together, and some one on one. In this movie, he had none and put up a far greater fight. The “logic” there doesn’t make sense. Essentially, one Avenger would have decimated him in this movie, if he had a more difficult time with the stones taking them on last film. It’s a gripe, and the movie’s biggest flaw. But otherwise, good.

I dont see how he's put up a far greater fight this time around than last time. If you are meaning the scene on Titan, well he literally got ambushed by the Avengers there, who came in with a plan, while here the Avengers had no plan on how to deal with Thanos 1v1. Plus in this movie Maw, the humongous bad guy (who's arm gets chopped off by Wong's portal in the last movie) and Thanos are fighting side by side, while in the last movie, Maw and big dude were neutralized earlier than the battle of Wakanda. 

[Monty]

2 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

I dont see how he's put up a far greater fight this time around than last time. If you are meaning the scene on Titan, well he literally got ambushed by the Avengers there, who came in with a plan, while here the Avengers had no plan on how to deal with Thanos 1v1. Plus in this movie Maw, the humongous bad guy (who's arm gets chopped off by Wong's portal in the last movie) and Thanos are fighting side by side, while in the last movie, Maw and big dude were neutralized earlier than the battle of Wakanda. 

Ok

[Alflives]

On 4/30/2019 at 9:10 PM, dajusta said:

*Big Spoilers*

 

I'd like to start a conversation about the Time Heist.  I would like to critique it in a logical way, not in a movie/entertainment way, but in a LOGICAL way.

 

Here is what happened in the movie first:

 

First Group: Captain America + Iron Man + Ant Man + Professor Hulk go after 3 stones (Mind Stone, Space Stone/Tesseract, Time Stone) Location/Time New York 2012

Second Group: Thor + Rocket go after the Aether (Reality Stone) Location/Time Asgard 2013

Third Group: Black Widow + Hawkeye go after Soul Stone , War Machine + Nebula go after Power Stone (Morag, Vormir 2014)

 

I can understand why the movie set this up on a "entertaining" level, but from a logical perspective it would be interesting to see some changes.

 

Logical Approach:

 

1.  The most unknown infinity stone is the Soul Stone.  No avenger has any experience of it, its location, not even its power.  It wouldn't make sense to send two extremely low powered heroes to go get it on this critical mission (yes black widow and hawkeye are pretty low powered)

2.  Also, Vormir is on a completely different planet.  It is LOGICAL to at least send Rocket or Nebula to Vormir because of their outer outer space planetary experience

3.  So let's say Rocket goes to Vormir, plus another powerful Avenger say Iron Man (who could survive in space with his suit), it makes LOGICAL sense

4.  Out of the two, Rocket and Iron Man would have to sacrifice for the soul stone, I'd say it would be Rocket, but he LOGICALLY make a fight over it (I think Iron Man would kill Rocket in order to continue the mission)

5.  For the NY team, if Iron Man doesn't go, then the team is left to Captain America, Ant Man, and Professor Hulk (either Black Widow or Hawkeye can join)

6.  Professor Hulk goes to the Ancient One to get the Time Stone, I think that went pretty well 

7.  Captain America picking up the Mind Stone with the use of Hail Hydra is pretty clever, so far so good

8.  Relying on Ant Man, Black Widow and Hawkeye to secure the Space Stone/Tesseract? They might not be able to do so... they either have to fight through the 2012 Avengers to get the Space Stone/Tesseract, or steal it under their noses somehow.  Ant Man with the combination of Hawkeye's arrow move again might work.  

9.  For the Asgard team, from the viewer's perspective this was kind of easy.  The only problem was Thor's depression or PTSD.  Who would have been able to get the Aether/Reality Stone while Thor is consoled by his mom?  I could see Black Widow sneaking in pretty well.  If Rocket could sneak in, I'm sure Black Widow could as well.  

10.  Or the most logical approach is for the team to see that Thor is in NO shape or form to actually function on a CRITICAL mission, and he gets benched from the mission, relying on Black Widow to do this mission on her own.  

11.  If Thor DOES get benched, then they free themselves 1 round trip of Pym Particles, and give them to a group that they see might have difficulty, for example one of the NY team members.

12.  If the NY team has an extra round time trip, who will use it in case of their failed mission?  The most reliable would be Captain America.

13.  Captain America wouldn't think to go New Jersey 1970 (that was Iron Man's knowledge)

14.  Considering they already have the Time Stone, and the Mind Stone, he just needed 1 place in time to get the Space/Tesseract

15.  Where would Captain America go to get it?  A place that ONLY CAPTAIN AMERICA knew where the Tesseract is FOR SURE?

16.  Captain America would pick the time when he saw it while fighting Red Skull (end of Captain America 1)

17.  There would be two Captain Americas fighting Red Skull, and our Cap would have to explain to Past Cap why he needs the Tesseract.  Then time jumps back home. 

 

So in the logical approach, these changes were possible:

-Rocket and Iron Man get into a fight on who will sacrifice their soul

-Iron Man would kill Rocket, getting the Soul Stone

-NY team could fail their mission, and not have Tony there to find a back up plan

-Thor gets benched, frees up Pym Particles

-Extra 1 round time trip extra for the NY group, who would use it?

-Captain America uses the extra time jump to get the Tesseract during his first fight with Red Skull (end of Captain America 1)

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Just so long as ION MAN dies.  He has a baby now, right - ION BABY?  And he can take that other guy, who flies around with the aid of a suit too.  I Like Thor, and Hulk; they are great.  There is a girl who is the most powerful of all (not Quite Superman powerful though) and she is cool too.  

[Maketherightmove]

On 5/1/2019 at 7:18 AM, Russ said:

I wonder if they are going to go in a different direction.  Is Hawkeye really going to be the face of the Captain America franchise now?  I can't remember what happens in the comics when he obtained the shield, I never had a chance to read many at all (honestly I thought Bucky was getting the shield, thought he would be a similar/seamless transition so Hawkeye threw me off).  I think we will see more of the spiderman/black panther/etc. story lines and the Avengers story may take a back seat for a handful of years before they assemble the crew again and then I assume it'll be because of a Thanos type enemy.

Hawkeye?

[Russ]

15 hours ago, Maketherightmove said:

Hawkeye?

I am nitoriously bad for screwing up hawkeye (Clint) and Falcon (Sam).  Why I always do that is beyond me.

[Monty]

54 minutes ago, Russ said:

I am nitoriously bad for screwing up hawkeye (Clint) and Falcon (Sam).  Why I always do that is beyond me.

I can understand. They look very similar...

[Where's Wellwood]

8 hours ago, Russ said:

I am nitoriously bad for screwing up hawkeye (Clint) and Falcon (Sam).  Why I always do that is beyond me.

They should do a Hobbs and Shaw style movie where Hawkeye and Falcon team up with Vulture.

[Apricot]

I loved the movie! Cried sooooooooooooo much, got some spoilers 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7

 

 

 

 

 

 

2

Spoiler

Nat's death made me cry, I was never the biggest fan of Nat but her death hit me. All she wanted to do was bring everyone back and in the end she didn't even get to be there when they did. 

Tony's death, TONY'S DEATH...I CRIED. SO. MFING. BAD. "And I am Iron Man *snap*" FUUUUDDGEEE that was so badass. The Peter and Tony scene, that was so unbelievably sad too. THE KID AT THE FUNERAL WAS THE KID FROM IRON MAN 3, DID Y'ALL SEE? I was crying HARD pretty much from Iron Man's death to the end of the movie. 

I wasn't exactly the biggest fan of Cap's ending, I would've prefered a death honestly. Even though Cap is one of my fav Avengers, I don't know why death would've been a better closing for me at least. I expected waaaay more deaths in the movie, not just two.

The scene where everyone comes back gave me CHILLS, that was so good.

CAN WE TALK ABOUT CAPTAIN AMERICA HOLDING MJOLNIR THOOOOO, WHAT A SCENE. I YELLED SO HARD. SOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD. 

THE SCENE WHERE ALL THE WOMEN WERE FIGHTING THANOS WAS ICONIC TOO. I love Peter Parker and his 13 moms. 

Iunno but you all but Scarlet Witch and Cap. Marvel's 1v1 with Thanos was awesome to me. Thanos legit had to open fire on his own troops to defeat Scarlet Witch, and he had to take out the power stone against Cap. Marvel to defeat her. They didn't go down easily, and I LOVED that. 

Very controversial, but I didn't like how they went about with Thor's character. He was there for the comedy and thats it. Making him fat and all that wasn't the issue for me, because honestly some people do go through all of that as a result of trauma, but the fact that they made it humourous really bugged me. But hey, its just a superhero movie.

 

Okay thats it 

 

My bad...y'all don't have to read it all, I just had a lot of feelings. 

[Angry Goose]

I didn't really enjoy this one as much as the first, although I hope this open the door to doctor doom.

 

 

And a ghost Rider reboot wouldn't be bad either 

[smokes]

I have never been so disappointed in a movie for a long time. Thor turns into Lebowski? Really? That showing basically turned all the movies Thor was in in the past a joke. I get that they needed a comedic arch but to do that to Thor? They should have left the comedy to the raccoon. I did not particularily like the way Thanos was seen as so weak. This movie did a majoy disservice to his character. In the comics, Thanos is not that stupid or weak, he is a calculated villian with the intellegence level above anything a mere human can understand. The guy managed to turn mistress death into his slave for crying out loud. I remember the comic book version where Thanos rips Wolverines adamantium skeleton out of his body, he single handedly destroyed and killed almost every popular superhero in the Marvel universe. There should have been more bloodshed in this movie. The Captain should have died in that fight.

[Pears]

 

 

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

One thing that I don't understand is in Infinity War Ironman man tells Pepper he had the heart surgery so he doesn't actually need the reactor to stay alive anymore, but in Endgame he removes it and hands it to Captain America and then collapses like he's dying... I didn't get that part.

[DarthMelvin]

That girl power moment was CHEEZY!

[Duodenum]

46 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

One thing that I don't understand is in Infinity War Ironman man tells Pepper he had the heart surgery so he doesn't actually need the reactor to stay alive anymore, but in Endgame he removes it and hands it to Captain America and then collapses like he's dying... I didn't get that part.

Pretty sure he died due to using the stones. Removing the reactor is inconsequential. 

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

1 hour ago, Duodenum said:

Pretty sure he died due to using the stones. Removing the reactor is inconsequential. 

He didn't remove the reactor at the end of the movie.... This happened in the beginning

[Duodenum]

13 hours ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

He didn't remove the reactor at the end of the movie.... This happened in the beginning

Hmm, I don't remember the scene.