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Arrow 1983

I disagree with the Masses this foward group is not the probem

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Zhukini said:

Yes the defence is bad, but our forwards also aren’t very good. We have 3 legit top sixers, so yes we do need help on offence and defence 

I think we have 2 top line players an elite 2nd line center and a fringe top 6 in Baertschi and a butt load of 3rd liners. On d we have 2 complimentary 1st or 2nd pairing guys with Tanev and Edler and a bunch of 5-8 guys and a Top flight prospect. In net we have 2 1b goalies (Marky could become a 1a and maybe is now). 

Edited by CanuckinEdm
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30 minutes ago, CanuckinEdm said:

I think we have 2 top line players an elite 2nd line center and a fringe top 6 in Baertschi and a butt load of 3rd liners. On d we have 2 complimentary 1st or 2nd pairing guys with Tanev and Edler and a bunch of 5-8 guys and a Top flight prospect. In net we have 2 1b goalies (Marky could become a 1a and maybe is now). 

Ya I agree with your assessments monies maybe the idea that tanev and Edler are top pairing guys.

 

still shows there a lot of positions to fill of this team wants to get close to being competitive though 

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Posted (edited)

Just look at our organization depth... it's our forwards and our defense. After watching these playoffs and how fast the hockey is, I realized how poor our team really was and how hard guys like Bo, Pettersson, and Boeser carry this squad. I don't think it's a coincidence that Edler has a huge bounce back year the same year that Pettersson arrived. I think if he had a proper 1st LW he would have put up a lot more points than he did. Depth with where I think they would be on a contending team

Massive roster holes to fill if this team is going to contend.

1st Pettersson Boeser
2nd Horvat
3rd Baertschi Pearson Roussel Leivo
4th Virtanen Eriksson Gaudette Beagle Granlund 
Extra Motte Schaller Sutter
AHL Goldobin Spooner

We need 3 more top 6 players to either step up or get picked up via UFA to truly contend... On a lot of teams, Virtanen would still be on an AHL contract "getting good" in the A, Gaudette would've been down there too, developing.

#1
#2 Edler
#3 Stetcher Hughes
#4/5 Tanev
#5/6 Hutton
#7/8 Biega
AHL Pouliot

Insert some UFAs into this roster and take away some of the bad contracts and take a look at what you have.

Panarin Pettersson Boeser
Baertschi Horvat Simmonds
Pearson Hayes Leivo
Virtanen Beagle Roussel
Sutter Motte

Edler Karlsson
Hughes Stetcher
Hutton Tanev
Biega

It's all a pipe dream, I know... but it shows how far off we are from contending, those are some glaring holes... and when they get injured it gets even worse.

XXXXXX Pettersson Boeser
Baertschi Horvat XXXXX
Pearson XXXXX Leivo
Virtanen Beagle Roussel
Sutter Motte

Edler XXXXXX
Hughes Stetcher
Hutton Tanev
Biega
 

Edited by 5Fivehole0
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4 hours ago, Zhukini said:

Ya I agree with your assessments monies maybe the idea that tanev and Edler are top pairing guys.

 

still shows there a lot of positions to fill of this team wants to get close to being competitive though 

Nah they get/got paid like good second pairing vets, Phanuefs  cap hit is 7 million I think, Subban 10... we don’t spend much on our defense compared to teams with good/great ones.   McDonagh is a pretty good Edler comparable.  Not really a number one but was handled with that job playing for the NYR, but never played well enough to get top dollar either.

 

Agree we have a lot of work to do to get over the competitive hump and hope that we don’t overpay Edler in money and term this summer simply because we don’t have much other choice.

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Actually when you lay out the forwards like that we are worse than I thought at forward.  

Baer is a top 6 complimentary winger.  If he can stay healthy we have 4 NHL level top 6 plus Lievo and Pearson who are middle six players.

D needs to rebuild and I agree with the sentiment that we need a more active D.   Stetcher and Quinn really compliment that style of play.  So does OJ and Edler has played it before.  If Hutton is still here this is the style he looked best in.  Need to move out some of these pieces and bring in fresh ones though.

This whole thread just helps illustrate that we have a long way to go at every position.  Can't fill every hole with UFA, need to keep drafting well and improve development.

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Posted (edited)

This is an excellent well thought out post and so I do commend the OP for sharing his thoughts (and the efforts that he made in his research).

 

My only concerns with going after Karlsson are as follows:

 

1) If we pay Karlsson a premium, then all of our other RFA’s will demand premium contracts as well......and this could actually decrease our window.  

 

If you look at all of the multiple cup winners in recent years (Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh), you will see that their top players were signed to cap friendly deals at the time those teams won their cups.

 

I honestly don’t know if the “wheel can be reinvented” so to speak.  As of right now, the formula clearly seems to be to sign your top players to “value cap friendly” contracts so that you can invest more in depth.  

 

Perhaps we should see how Toronto does in these playoffs.  If Toronto can go deep and even win a cup, then I’ll change my mind and become a firm believer in the “Toronto model” (which is essentially what you are proposing with the Karlsson Signing).   

 

For now though, I just think that overpaying for premium talent at premium prices leaves a lot to be desired as far as depth goes....and ultimately leads to these teams being a perennial “bridesmaid” of sorts.

Edited by Hindustan Smyl
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I don't understand the sentiment that you need 6 bonafide, top 6 forwards. In recent times, most teams that win cups have 4 (maybe 5) true top 6 forwards with the precursor that two of them play Centre. 

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Maybe this is just me, but I think the most important need for the Canucks at this point is depth on defense, in the form of atleast 5 or even 6 guys being atleast 2nd caliber pairing guys.   That way - the Canucks won’t sink if they have 1-2 injuries to their defense. 

 

1) Sign Gardiner and Myers

2) Trade Hutton for a good young forward.  If Guds can get you Pearson, then surely, Hutton should be able to land a decent forward as well.

3) Move on from Edler and Tanev (via trade or not resigning) when guys like Juolevi and Woo (or Tryamkin) are ready to step in.

 

Roussel-Pettersson-Boeser

Pearson-Horvat-[Hutton trade]

Baertschi-Gaudette-Virtanen

Eriksson-Beagle-Sutter

 

Leivo

 

Edler-Stecher

Gardiner-Tanev

Hughes-Myers

 

Schenn

 

Markstrom

Demko

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ReggieBush said:

I don't understand the sentiment that you need 6 bonafide, top 6 forwards. In recent times, most teams that win cups have 4 (maybe 5) true top 6 forwards with the precursor that two of them play Centre. 

your right but there has to be chemistry on each line. that is why pearson and bo play well together. with whoever else they put with bo, made the second line a checking line. 

imo, petey’s line needs a skilled but abrasive winger and bo needs a goalscorer on his right side. i think each line needs a playmaker, a scorer and a nucker, to be successful. 

petey and brock bring the PMaking and scoring. bo and tanner bring the PMaking and grit. 

you kind of wish that jake could be the missing piece on petey’s line, but he doesn’t appear to know what to do out there. 

they can fill in players on those 2 lines but not with the right chemistry. green said that jake could be petey’s wingman but he would have to be taught how to compliment his line mates. have to turn him into a burrows. 

i think that our first pick this year, if it is a forward, could eventually line up on the top 2 lines. 

Edited by smithers joe

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7 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I try not to write to much on these types of forums, but I believe there is a fallacy going through the Canuck fan base. I believe that this core of forwards does not need a top 6 or even 2 top six forward to be competitive. I believe that the only problem this team has is on there defence. I believe 2 spots on defence need to be filled 1 must be filled immediately and 1 after Christmas or at the trade dead line dependent on where we are in the standings.

You may notice that I said I believe many times in that statement and here is way, if you go through the stats of team defencemen as I did over the weekend, 1 very glaring thing is spotted almost immediately, we don't get enough points from our defence. This is not a new fact this has been a problem since 2011-12 season and has not been addressed until Quinn Hughes. I'm not a believer that Hughes will be the problem fixer next season or even the next few seasons to come, like any rookie I would expect highs and lows for this kid. Id like to point out before you guys do I think we have a future star in Quinn but I emphasize future as I would Pettersson or Boeser will be future stars for this team. In my opinion all three of these kids have lots of growth still ahead of them and Hughes has the most especially to become a dynamic offensive defencemen who can control the pace of the game and who can lead our offence.

Assume I am wrong and Hughes becomes this stellar defenceman we all hope he will become next season then what I am about to propose is completely useless. But assume I am closer to being right about his progression. Assume Hughes puts up a 40-50 point season most would agree that would be successful and yet that would mean at 40 pts he would match the top 30 defencemen in the league with 50pts top 13 in the league my point, there are not many who can amass these point totals. 40-50 pts for Hughes next season wouldn't be successful it would be outstanding, impressive and unbelievable unrealistic. How about 30 pts that must be more realistic and yet only 57 defencemen got to 30pts this season. Top rookies this season Dahlin 44pts, Heiskanen 33pts. Doable yes but are you willing to risk a season or 2 or 3 on it.

 

The proposal, 

I argue that the only player worth signing this off season is Erik Karlsson. You all saw that coming. However, but my argument is go all in 7 year 12mill per, and now I must deal with the cap thankfully I ran it on Capfriendly using this years cap ceiling and it worked leaving room for error by not increasing the cap for next season if reported correctly is coming in around 83 million.

I have Edler at 2 years and 6 mil. I could see Edler wanting to pair up along side his countryman. Boeser 6year 7mill very comparable to other players of his talent. Demko at 2 years 1.5 mill show me contract. Leivo and Shenn at 1 or 2 year show me contracts. Olli I have making the team as my number 6 or 7 depending on Shenns play.

 

Now why this works short term and long term these 23 players come in giving the team cap space of 695k at the current cap ceiling of 79.5 million. Why is this important, first bonusses to the rookies we don want to be paying them in the following years and counting to next years cap hit. Second I mention earlier we need to acquire a second piece after the Christmas or a the trade deadline. That piece in my opinion is a defensive defencemen a Hamhuis type player for the playoffs and possibly long term I would argue this would depend on Juolevi or Schenns play during the regular season. That's the short term. 

Long term Spooner is off the books after next season for a possible pay increase to Markstrom and Tanev if we resign him as well.

Year 2 Petterson ,Hughes and Juolevi Contracts, off the books are Sutter, Pearson, Baertschi and Edler total 17.492 million

Year 3 off the books Erikson, Beagle and Roussel total 12 million at this point no top rookies to resign, Long term the Cap actually looks good under Bennings Management and it allows them to go after a guy like Karlsson this season. The productivity from your back end With Karlsson and Edler on your top pair should relieve the pressure from Quinn on you second pairing and giving him a partner like Tanev should allow Hughes to take greater risks and when Tanev gets injured Schenn jumps in for 25-30 games as a number 4 guy which also relieves pressure off of Stecher who can play that number 5 roll and bump up to 4 if shenn cant handle the duties. A more Productive back end should automatically mean a more productive Forward group.

 

And there follows the logic 1 top end Defenceman can put everyone else into there proper placing and change the whole dynamic of your offence one day Hughes may be that guy but logically it wont be next season but next season could be major step for him in seeing how an offensive defensive system works.

 

Roussel, Antoine
$3,000,000
Edit
LW
M-NTC
UFA - 3
VAN
Pettersson, Elias
$925,000
C, LW
RFA - 2
VAN
Boeser, Brock
$7,000,000
RW
RFA
VAN
Pearson, Tanner
$3,750,000
LW
UFA - 2
VAN
Horvat, Bo
$5,500,000
C
UFA - 4
VAN
Virtanen, Jake
$1,250,000
RW
RFA - 1
VAN
Baertschi, Sven
$3,366,666
LW
UFA - 2
VAN
Sutter, Brandon
$4,375,000
C
M-NTC
UFA - 2
VAN
Eriksson, Loui
$6,000,000
LW, RW
NTC
UFA - 3
VAN
Leivo, Josh
$950,000
LW
RFA
VAN
Beagle, Jay
$3,000,000
C
M-NTC
UFA - 3
VAN
Spooner, Ryan
$3,100,000
C, LW
UFA - 1
 
VAN
Gaudette, Adam
$916,666
C
RFA - 1
 
 
 
 
Left Defense Right Defense Goaltender
VAN
Edler, Alexander
$6,000,000
D
UFA
Karlsson, Erik
$12,000,000
D
UFA
VAN
Markström, Jacob
$3,666,667
G
UFA - 1
VAN
Hughes, Quintin
$916,666
D
RFA - 2
VAN
Tanev, Christopher
$4,450,000
D
M-NTC
UFA - 1
VAN
Demko, Thatcher
$1,500,000
G
RFA
undefined
Schenn, Luke
$1,500,000
D
VAN
Stecher, Troy
$2,325,000
D
RFA - 1
 
VAN
Juolevi, Olli
$863,333
D
RFA - 2
VAN
Biega, Alex
$825,000
D
UFA - 1
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

 

OP,

 

Agreed that it sour defence that needs fixing vs anything else.  A nice add to our top six at the draft is a good thing as any player at 10 wont be on our roster for 2-3 years.  

 

I disagree about EK, because while cap won't be a concern in the next 2 years, after that it becomes a huge concern.  

 

Ep40 could get a huge deal, same with Hughes.  While having EK on our roster with Edler is awesome for 2-3 years with Edler coming off the books, that 12m EK contract will kill our cap when we would need it most.  When all of the current group of young guns and prospects are all signing big increased contracts.  

 

IMO Hughes will be better than you believe, but not a 50 pt next season

I could see him cracking 40pts though. 

 

He more than doubled zone exits and entries vs any other d man in his small sample of games with limited ice time.  

 

That's what we need more than points.  Hughes makes that happen, that's why OJ was picked.  They transition the puck with possession tot he forwards, either with precision passing, OJ, or patty kane like skating and stick handling like Hughes.  

 

Both skill sets are in desperate need and with that key issue being addressed, why bust the bank on EK with full term and dollar?  

 

My take, but I agree with everything else you are saying, just think we can look past EK to a more rounded vet d man and still bring up our young guys this season.  

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1 hour ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

My only concerns with going after Karlsson are as follows:

 

1) If we pay Karlsson a premium, then all of our other RFA’s will demand premium contracts as well......and this could actually decrease our window.  

 

If you look at all of the multiple cup winners in recent years (Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh), you will see that their top players were signed to cap friendly deals at the time those teams won their cups.

Pittsburgh Penguins had 4 players who made 45.2% of the $71.4M cap when they won in 2016 (Malkin, Crosby, Letang, and Kessel). There's no magic formula, it's just get the best players you can, and get as many as you can.

 

Chicago is interesting, because when they won the cup in 2010, Brian Campbell was a UFA signing making $7,142,875. The salary cap that season was set at $56.8 million, so Campbell's contract was 12.6% of the cap. Under the projected $83M cap next year, that would be $10.44M. Campbell ended up needing to be moved to make way for young guys getting raises, but his presence on the team likely helped younger players like Keith, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson develop into such fine defensemen.

 

If Karlsson is interested in playing for Vancouver, we'd be fools for not pursuing him. He'd immediately become the best defenseman we've ever had. He'd also fill the most obvious hole in the organization: top-pairing RHD. And he'd help insulate and develop younger guys like Hughes, Stetcher, and Woo.

 

And you can't just say "we're not ready", or "wait a couple years", because defensemen of his level don't come around often in free agency, and even when they do they won't necessarily be interested in your team. The last elite D-man to move teams as a UFA was Ryan Suter, and his decision came down to Nashville (the team that drafted him), or Minnesota (his home-town team) - Vancouver wasn't even a consideration.

 

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Posted (edited)

We need a whole lot of stuff, not just defense.

 

Not even goaltending is set which is probably our strongest area. Markstrom is too old with no playoff experience  for our window. demko doesn’t look quite ready to start yet, and dipietro is way too raw.

 

We need tons of stuff. A new owner and GM would help too imo.

Edited by Tomatoes11
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