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DonLever

Joe Biden - Democratic Nominee for the President of the United States

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3 minutes ago, Kragar said:

So have I.  I am free to live under either, and I choose here.  What now?  Vote our conscience and do the best we can, I guess.

 

A single-payer system could well fix some of our problems you are concerned about, but they will bring others.  However, our problems can be fixed without taking on the problems of single-payer.  Why not implement a solution that works well, instead of a solution that (arguably) works a little better but still fails in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

What now? We can enjoy go enjoy our Saturdays since we’re clearly not going to convince one another the system they prefer is better.

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20 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Just so we're clear.

 

Are you under the impression that this is a one time lump sum payment of said estimated $34 trillion?  

 

As well, what is the math on 327 million people in which 34 TRILLION is the estimated number for healthcare?  As I kind of think that number has to be a shade high and at the most extreme end of things.

Of course not, that number is over the 10 year period.

 

 

https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/dont-confuse-changes-federal-health-spending-national-health-spending

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5 hours ago, Kragar said:

So have I.  I am free to live under either, and I choose here.  What now?  Vote our conscience and do the best we can, I guess.

 

A single-payer system could well fix some of our problems you are concerned about, but they will bring others.  However, our problems can be fixed without taking on the problems of single-payer.  Why not implement a solution that works well, instead of a solution that (arguably) works a little better but still fails in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

I keep hearing these comparisons to G-20 nations so I feel some clarification is needed.

First and foremost not all these nations use the same system.

Germany and Japan use Bismarck model, Scandinavia uses Beveridge model, Canada uses NHI etc.

Most of those that are clamoring for single payer type of insurance will need to google these first.

 

Second of all, current system is far from perfect and needs to be fixed.

Giving people options as well,but some here believe that government should decide for you though.

Despite the fact that in Canada for example, two thirds of people have some sort of supplemental insurance.

 

Sanders nut huggers also want to pull Sherman march type of assault on private insurance.

Without any idea how much will it cost or how will they pay for it.

Well they do have some ideas, which includes taxing rich, employers, capital gains, dividends, estate tax etc.

 

Let us not worry if that will affect job creation or investments or companies leaving, but that is still not enough.

Which brings us to increased taxes to middle class but let’s live in a bubble and pretend that won’t happen.

People that want the government to run health care down here, should go stay at any VA hospital and see how great government ran healthcare is. Or just find a veteran and ask him or her.

 

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1 hour ago, CBH1926 said:

How much money per year will corporations take in from every American over that 10 year period?  How much lost potential earning will their economy see via sick and dying people, lost hours/days at work?  How much corporate welfare does the US hand out over that 10 year period?

 

Do that math, get back to me on which number is higher

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43 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

I keep hearing these comparisons to G-20 nations so I feel some clarification is needed.

First and foremost not all these nations use the same system.

Germany and Japan use Bismarck model, Scandinavia uses Beveridge model, Canada uses NHI etc.

Most of those that are clamoring for single payer type of insurance will need to google these first.

 

Second of all, current system is far from perfect and needs to be fixed.

Giving people options as well,but some here believe that government should decide for you though.

Despite the fact that in Canada for example, two thirds of people have some sort of supplemental insurance.

 

Sanders nut huggers also want to pull Sherman march type of assault on private insurance.

Without any idea how much will it cost or how will they pay for it.

Well they do have some ideas, which includes taxing rich, employers, capital gains, dividends, estate tax etc.

 

Let us not worry if that will affect job creation or investments or companies leaving, but that is still not enough.

Which brings us to increased taxes to middle class but let’s live in a bubble and pretend that won’t happen.

People that want the government to run health care down here, should go stay at any VA hospital and see how great government ran healthcare is. Or just find a veteran and ask him or her.

 

Taxes have been raised in the middle class already to pay for massive tax cuts for businesses and the wealthy

 

Those tax cuts came at the expense of things like VA

 

Thank you.  Tell me how Sanders is bad again if he suggests doing EXACTLY what is already happening

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Another study came out saying 450 billion per year and 68,000 unnecessary deaths could be prevented by Medicare for all.

 

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/02/15/sanders-applauds-new-medicare-all-study-will-save-americans-450-billion-and-prevent

 

Supplements the other studies that say the same thing...lower costs with better outcomes. 

Edited by Duodenum
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9 hours ago, Chicken. said:

I could’ve sworn the nickname was Slippin Jimmy..  always pulling a fast one

 

Anyways, health authorities are over bloated highly political places where not a lot of change gets done.. the name change saga from hssbc to bccss to phsa was fun to follow when i worked for a healthcare vendor man do they have money to burn

yeah, thats the kind of silly crap thats supposed to make people think changes are happening. Its ridiculous that a population of 5 million has 6 different health authorities, all with redundant management, all with separate databases, etc. It can and needs to change. 

 

Whats different between that and the US system, is that we at least have a hope of trimming the fat. In the US insurance companies are a baked in cost that no one in the industry has a motivation to see change. 

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2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

How much money per year will corporations take in from every American over that 10 year period?  How much lost potential earning will their economy see via sick and dying people, lost hours/days at work?  How much corporate welfare does the US hand out over that 10 year period?

 

Do that math, get back to me on which number is higher

So at first you tell me that my 32 trillion number is high.

After I post numbers from well respected source, you start answering my question with your own questions. 

Fortunately for you since I work in finance and accounting, I was able to to some math.

The number is nowhere near the 32 trillion, not by a long shot.

 

Edited by CBH1926

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2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Taxes have been raised in the middle class already to pay for massive tax cuts for businesses and the wealthy

 

Those tax cuts came at the expense of things like VA

 

Thank you.  Tell me how Sanders is bad again if he suggests doing EXACTLY what is already happening

So if the current administration is screwing the middle class over, I guess it should be ok for that to continue.

What kind of &^@#ed up logic is that?

 

Edited by CBH1926

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On 2/15/2020 at 12:29 AM, Kragar said:

No hyperbole to see here, people.

I honestly see this as a very serious problem and if I am coming across as exaggerating then this is unfortunate and I wish I could explain myself better.

Edited by Red Light Racicot
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11 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

So at first you tell me that my 32 trillion number is high.

After I post numbers from well respected source, you start answering my question with your own questions. 

Fortunately for you since I work in finance and accounting, I was able to to some math.

The number is nowhere near the 32 trillion, not by a long shot.

 

I'm asking you a question.  I'm not questioning your numbers.

 

Does the cost outweigh the benefits.  Is there wasted money on business welfare and subsidization that can be better spent on this program for the taxpayers.

 

You know full well the answer to that though don't you?

Edited by Warhippy

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11 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

So if the current administration is screwing the middle class over, I guess it should be ok for that to continue.

What kind of &^@#ed up logic is that?

 

Sorry but did I say that?

 

I'm looking but I can't see where I said that at all.  Maybe you can point it out to me?

 

What I DID point out, is that in your rush to defame this plan you're using statements to scare people that are LITERALLY happening right now.

 

What I want to know is why you think under one person/plan it's bad, but under this person/plan it seems to be ok?

 

Edit**. Now if you think otherwise, fine my bad and I apologise.  But by your statements you're defaming one sides plan while ignoring that same type of governance happening right now

Edited by Warhippy

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5 hours ago, Red Light Racicot said:

I honestly see this as a very serious problem and if I am coming across as exaggerating then this is unfortunate and I wish I could explain myself better.

It is a problem, I agree.  I was disappointed to learn that a bill was being put together to combat one of the biggest causes of the overbilling, but it was stalled for some stupid reason, as some Dem congressman had some bug up his butt.

 

If you read the discussion that others took up after I quoted you, you can see my position on the matter.  In short, I would far rather see them fix our system (I outline some major flaws to be addressed) than implement another flawed system used by our northern neighbors. Clearly, Bernie doesn't agree with me, but I'm not surprised.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Kragar said:

It is a problem, I agree.  I was disappointed to learn that a bill was being put together to combat one of the biggest causes of the overbilling, but it was stalled for some stupid reason, as some Dem congressman had some bug up his butt.

 

If you read the discussion that others took up after I quoted you, you can see my position on the matter.  In short, I would far rather see them fix our system (I outline some major flaws to be addressed) than implement another flawed system used by our northern neighbors. Clearly, Bernie doesn't agree with me, but I'm not surprised.

 

 

Its a good reminder that nothing can change without bipartisanship. Both sides have to understand each other's concerns before any reform on health care is possible.

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2 minutes ago, xereau said:

331155792_Socialism101.jpg.6a8d10d804cab2e6820c99b97ea18994.jpg

Because meme's, cartoons and visual slights always tell the whole story :) 

 

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/democratic-socialist-countries/

 

Democratic Socialist Countries 2020

Democratic socialism describes a socialist economy where production and wealth are collectively owned, but the country has a democratic system of government. The goal of democratic socialism is to achieve socialist goals of equality while opposing socialist ideologies. Democratic socialism is opposed to the Soviet economic model, command economies and authoritarian governance. 

Under Democratic socialism, the ownership of private property is limited. The government regulates the economy. There are also different programs that offer assistance and pensions. 

 

What is a Democratic Socialist?

A democratic socialist is someone who believes that the government should provide a range of basic services to the public for free or at a significant discount, such as health care and education. Unlike socialists, democratic socialists do not believe the government should control all aspects of the aspects, only help provide basic needs and help all of its citizens have an equal chance of success. 

Socialism vs. Communism

Socialism and Communism are both built on the premise that individuals contribute to society based on their own ability to do so. Both concepts have the government playing a larger role in economic planning and investment and government also controls institutions. Both also remove private business as a producer of goods and services. There is a big key difference between Socialism and Communism. Individuals under a true Communist system would not have money and would be simply given what the government thinks you need in terms of food, clothing, housing, etc. The people would not need to work harder to receive the same amount as anyone else. Under socialism, individuals are compensated based on their individual contribution; therefore, those who work harder would receive more. Furthermore, Communism views all property as public property, while Socialism allows individuals to have their own private property still. Communism is an economic and political philosophy and socialism is an economic philosophy. Lastly, Communism abolishes class distinctions as everyone is effectively treated equally, while socialism allows class distinctions to exist, as there is the opportunity for some to achieve more wealth than others.

Democratic Socialism vs. Socialism

Both democratic socialism and socialism advocate for a redistribution of wealth and power to meet public needs, not make profits for a few. Both aim to weaken the power of corporations and increase the power of the working people. 

Democratic socialists, however, do not think the government should immediately take control of all aspects of the economy. Democratic socialism focuses more on providing basic needs to all people, such as health care and education. Democratic socialism, unlike socialism, would achieve this through democratic means and not an authoritarian rule.

There are democratic socialist parties located all around the world. The nations that have socialist parties include: 

Of these nations, the countries that have a socialist party that serves as a governing party are:

  • Armenia
  • Bolivia
  • Ecuador
  • Iceland
  • Nicaragua
  • Northern Ireland
  • Portugal
  • Serbia
  • Venezuela

Failed Socialist Countries

The largest of the failed socialist countries is the Soviet Union, which fell in 1991. Following WorldWar II, the United States helped to rebuild Western European countries, all of whom were free marketing economies that rebuilt rapidly by establishing the European Union and trading with one another. On the other hand, the Soviet Union seized government control of Eastern European nations, all of which became socialist states. These included: Bulgaria, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, and Ukraine. While East Germany reunified with West Germany and joined the thriving EU economy, the rest of the Eastern European countries faced economic hardship after the Soviet Union fell. Many of these countries remain the poorest European countries today. 

Additionally, both Cuba and Venezuela are currently socialist states facing their own economic crises deemed to be a result of socialism. 

 

Successful Socialist Countries

Some argue that there has been no completely socialist country that has been successful, only countries that have seen success in adopting socialist policies.

Bolivia is an example of a successful socialist country. Bolivia has drastically cut extreme poverty and has the highest GDP growth rate in South America.

Other countries that have adopted and enacted socialist ideas and policies, and have seen success in improving their societies by doing so, are Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand.

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7 hours ago, Warhippy said:

I'm asking you a question.  I'm not questioning your numbers.

 

Does the cost outweigh the benefits.  Is there wasted money on business welfare and subsidization that can be better spent on this program for the taxpayers.

 

You know full well the answer to that though don't you?

Corporate “welfare” is estimated at 100b per year, numbers that I found point to 74.5b in 2018.

Legal loopholes that reduce tax burden for companies should be closed.

No argument there, also that money could used for better purposes.

 

After looking at Sanders plan on how to finance Medicare for all, I feel that we are nowhere near the 32trillion number.

To me math is not open to interpretation, 2+2 is always 4, now in philosophy class you can argue anything.

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7 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Sorry but did I say that?

 

I'm looking but I can't see where I said that at all.  Maybe you can point it out to me?

 

What I DID point out, is that in your rush to defame this plan you're using statements to scare people that are LITERALLY happening right now.

 

What I want to know is why you think under one person/plan it's bad, but under this person/plan it seems to be ok?

 

Edit**. Now if you think otherwise, fine my bad and I apologise.  But by your statements you're defaming one sides plan while ignoring that same type of governance happening right now

Type of governance that we have now is not very good, hence the reason I didn’t vote for it, I don’t see where I am defending them.

Right wing war mongers have caused countless deaths in Iraq and almost bankrupted the country.

Party that caters to special interest groups, NRA, billionaires, oil companies etc.

 

What I would like to see is improving the current health care without massive tax raise especially on the middle class.

Also I value ability to choose, something that Sanders is vehemently opposed to.

VA hospitals have been poorly ran for the last 50 years, I have no faith in government ran health care down here.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

Type of governance that we have now is not very good, hence the reason I didn’t vote for it, I don’t see where I am defending them.

Right wing war mongers have caused countless deaths in Iraq and almost bankrupted the country.

Party that caters to special interest groups, NRA, billionaires, oil companies etc.

 

What I would like to see is improving the current health care without massive tax raise especially on the middle class.

Also I value ability to choose, something that Sanders is vehemently opposed to.

VA hospitals have been poorly ran for the last 50 years, I have no faith in government ran health care down here.

 

 

 

Now don't get me wrong.  I didn't say defending it at all.  I merely stated that you are pointing your fingers across the aisle but refusing to or ignoring the fact that what you're pointing your finger at is already happening now.

 

I do not support the current levels of governance and have little faith in their abilities.  The pendulum in America has swung wildly and crazily to the right.  Sanders represents that counter balance with a wild swing to the far left.  Within 5 years time or so we'll see a balancing towards the centre where it belongs

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