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kingofsurrey

CDN legal system.

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11 hours ago, luckylager said:

I'm just one of those smug Islanders. 

I always thought you were a little weird.

It's ok, I still like you.

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14 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

According to department of corrections  36% of “lifers” were on some sort of parole.

More recent data shows that the number has been going up.

 

https://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/research/005008-0231-eng.shtml

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/1864132/by-the-numbers-lifers-in-canadas-prisons/

Lol so you just proved my point. You said "most of". It's well under half and most took much longer than the minimum 25 years. 

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Easy to point to gangs. Yet organized crime is funnelling money into high end cars, and real estate and washing the money in Casinos. 

Start closing loopholes.

Change immigration so we bring in people with trades, skills, degrees, that will create jobs. 

Not just buy a house, send their kids to school, and make money overseas. 

We need new citizens who want to live, work, and grow and make Canada better. 

Not just use Canada for education and to flip and make money on real estate. 

When we put people in prison, teach them trades and skills and make them work 40 hours a week. 

That way when they get out, they will have real work experience and find going back to crime isn't such a good thing. 

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9 hours ago, Down by the River said:

It is a joke that people still think that longer sentences act as a specific or general deterrent. 

 

I'm fully on board with certain people receiving lengthy/life sentence specifically for the purposes of protecting the public. The idea that longer sentences deter future offending has been debunked over and over again. When a person's likelihood of recidivism drops after incarceration it is typically because of the effect of the age-crime curve (they're now old and lack the same level of energy to offend) as opposed to being deterred from offending. 

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0887403414528950

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1745-9125.2009.00171.x

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0032885511415224

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418825.2016.1219762

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0022427817739338

 

Before WWI happened, most of the arabian peninsula was under the Ottoman Turk rule, who strictly speaking, did not have sharia law enforcement ( only parts of it). Since the British withdrawal in the 60s, most of the arab emirates set up, adopted full sharia and immediately resulted in far longer sentencing and far bigger punitive & permanent measures. They instituted chopping off a hand for theft. Result: theft crime plummeted. They instituted the death penalty for far more crimes. Result: crimes that are now punishable by death, plummeted. 

 

Your sources are completely nonsense, because not a single one of them contrasts the crime level or re-offending level across various nations and cultures that have various forms of penalties for it. For all we know, there is no difference because the US prison system itself is a pampered gang-gathering with no real punitive actions meted out to the prisoners. 

 

With the same level of enforcement, the length and severity of the sentence has a direct correlation with the propensity to re-offend, for any rational human being ( this takes out people with dependencies or mental issues out of the equation). You don't have to be a researcher to know this, just being a parent is enough. Which I am. 

 

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15 hours ago, falcon45ca said:

Self evident evidence...

 

I gotta remember that logical quandary. 

Indeed. Remember that logical quandry when someone asks you how do you know there is a sun in the sky. 

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29 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Indeed. Remember that logical quandry when someone asks you how do you know there is a sun in the sky. 

What!? the sun is in the sky? when did that happen? ..we're all gonna burn!.

 

Put it back to the centre of the solar system will ya?

 

 

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8 hours ago, RRypien37 said:

Lol so you just proved my point. You said "most of". It's well under half and most took much longer than the minimum 25 years. 

The average sentence for first degree murder in Canada which carries mandatory life sentence is 22.6 years.

Those convicted to life are out before mandatory term is served.

 

https://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/research/005008-b27-eng.shtml#s12

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Execute anyone who commits a violent crime.  Execute anyone who sells illegal drugs.  Don’t waste time and money on trials.  Just shoot the bad peoples.  We need a serious cull of the human species, so why not start with the worst of the scum?  

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5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Execute anyone who commits a violent crime.  Execute anyone who sells illegal drugs.  Don’t waste time and money on trials.  Just shoot the bad peoples.  We need a serious cull of the human species, so why not start with the worst of the scum?  

we don't need a cull of the human species, we just need to go back to living within our means. Food, house, sex, community, family should be prioritized more than 'experiences and stuff'. It takes care of 99% of consumption philosophy.

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3 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

we don't need a cull of the human species, we just need to go back to living within our means. Food, house, sex, community, family should be prioritized more than 'experiences and stuff'. It takes care of 99% of consumption philosophy.

All true, but I’d like to see the nasty people, who abuse others through criminal activity, eliminated.  Let the bar people know that Canada is no longer a soft touch.  Commit a violent crime here, and you are shot.  Simple as that.  No trial.  No waste of money.  Bad people are shot dead.  Then those working and honest folk could focus on those things you mentioned, without the tax burden of policing the lowlife scum.  The money will run out.  People are already taxed to the max.  Government will need to trim budgets.  Money for the scum will be the first to go, because doing it will not lose votes.  

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4 hours ago, canuckistani said:

Before WWI happened, most of the arabian peninsula was under the Ottoman Turk rule, who strictly speaking, did not have sharia law enforcement ( only parts of it). Since the British withdrawal in the 60s, most of the arab emirates set up, adopted full sharia and immediately resulted in far longer sentencing and far bigger punitive & permanent measures. They instituted chopping off a hand for theft. Result: theft crime plummeted. They instituted the death penalty for far more crimes. Result: crimes that are now punishable by death, plummeted. 

 

Your sources are completely nonsense, because not a single one of them contrasts the crime level or re-offending level across various nations and cultures that have various forms of penalties for it. For all we know, there is no difference because the US prison system itself is a pampered gang-gathering with no real punitive actions meted out to the prisoners. 

 

With the same level of enforcement, the length and severity of the sentence has a direct correlation with the propensity to re-offend, for any rational human being ( this takes out people with dependencies or mental issues out of the equation). You don't have to be a researcher to know this, just being a parent is enough. Which I am. 

 

Lol. #1. Where is your source? #2. You've mistaken correlation for causation. Just because crime went down, does not mean that it was because people were deterred from engaging in crime. 

 

In fact, studies in the United States, which have a population far more similar to Canada than the one you are talking about, showed that there was no impact of changes in the rate of homicide in given states after instituting/removing the death penalty. 

 

 

the length and severity of the sentence has a direct correlation with the propensity to re-offend

 

I don't think you know what propensity means. Propensity refers to a time-stable trait. If the trait is time-stable, it means that it is not impacted by length and severity of sentence. You're literally taking something that means "stable" and suggesting that it varies over time according to environment. This is not what propensity means, but of course you wouldn't understand this, as you refuse to actually read when the facts don't support your anecdotes. 

 

You're also incorrect about the sources not looking at different cultures. They do. And, by focusing on the US, they capture a particularly punitive-based system.

 

It is convenient that you're willing to criticize my sources for not looking at different countries. While this is a fair criticism, it is not one that you apply when presenting your own ideas. You're basically cherry-picking anecdotes. 

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1 hour ago, Down by the River said:

Lol. #1. Where is your source?

Can be provided if required. 

1 hour ago, Down by the River said:

#2. You've mistaken correlation for causation. Just because crime went down, does not mean that it was because people were deterred from engaging in crime. 

As a masters in science, i am perfectly aware what correlation is, what causation is and what controls are. If there is a resulting change in crime stats with only variable changed is the introduction of a new bill of penalties, its elementary to figure out what is correlation and what is causation. 

1 hour ago, Down by the River said:

In fact, studies in the United States, which have a population far more similar to Canada than the one you are talking about, showed that there was no impact of changes in the rate of homicide in given states after instituting/removing the death penalty. 

Pfft. Saudi Arabia has a population of 32 million, Canada is 37 million and USA is 320 million. US population being similar to Canada is a nonsensical argument. 

1 hour ago, Down by the River said:

 

 

 

I don't think you know what propensity means. Propensity refers to a time-stable trait. If the trait is time-stable, it means that it is not impacted by length and severity of sentence. You're literally taking something that means "stable" and suggesting that it varies over time according to environment. This is not what propensity means, but of course you wouldn't understand this, as you refuse to actually read when the facts don't support your anecdotes. 

Sophistry. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propensity

 

Merriam websters says you are wrong. Propensity is the same as proclivity, tendency, etc. 

1 hour ago, Down by the River said:

 

You're also incorrect about the sources not looking at different cultures. They do. And, by focusing on the US, they capture a particularly punitive-based system.

They did not. US is just about the closest culture to Canada/practically indistinguishable culture outside of Quebec. The sources do not analyze any non-western justice models or systems. Ergo, no cultural normalization has been performed by the sources, ergo, largely scientifically laughable. 

1 hour ago, Down by the River said:

 

It is convenient that you're willing to criticize my sources for not looking at different countries. While this is a fair criticism, it is not one that you apply when presenting your own ideas. You're basically cherry-picking anecdotes. 

It doesn't change the fact that Canadian penalties are laughably weak compared to most of the world and most of the world laughs at the weak sentencing of the western nations. 

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6 hours ago, Alflives said:

Execute anyone who commits a violent crime.  Execute anyone who sells illegal drugs.  Don’t waste time and money on trials.  Just shoot the bad peoples.  We need a serious cull of the human species, so why not start with the worst of the scum?  

Everything that's ever been born is destined to die.

 

Kill em' all!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except me, and every woman on the planet.

#repopulation

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7 hours ago, canuckistani said:

Can be provided if required. 

As a masters in science, i am perfectly aware what correlation is, what causation is and what controls are. If there is a resulting change in crime stats with only variable changed is the introduction of a new bill of penalties, its elementary to figure out what is correlation and what is causation. 

Pfft. Saudi Arabia has a population of 32 million, Canada is 37 million and USA is 320 million. US population being similar to Canada is a nonsensical argument. 

Sophistry. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propensity

 

Merriam websters says you are wrong. Propensity is the same as proclivity, tendency, etc. 

They did not. US is just about the closest culture to Canada/practically indistinguishable culture outside of Quebec. The sources do not analyze any non-western justice models or systems. Ergo, no cultural normalization has been performed by the sources, ergo, largely scientifically laughable. 

It doesn't change the fact that Canadian penalties are laughably weak compared to most of the world and most of the world laughs at the weak sentencing of the western nations. 

Yeah, you're going to need to provide a source. I hope it looks at cross-cultural generalizability since this is the standard you've set. 

 

What was your MA actually in? It certainly doesn't appear to be criminology, because here is the definition of propensity in criminology:

 

Propensity implies that the construct either (a) remains stable within the individual over the life course or (b) may show slight within-individual variations over time, but such change is not more than expected for the population that they were drawn from and thus does not result in rank-order differences between persons (Na & Paternoster, 2012; Nagin & Paternoster, 2000). Stable between-person differences in criminal propensity correspond with stable between-person differences in offending. Accordingly, propensity theories are the antithesis to the criminal career paradigm as pure propensity theories suggest that the correlation between past and future offending is spurious. A person’s time-stable propensity for crime fully accounts for this relationship (Nagin & Paternoster, 1991).

 

It is hilarious that someone claiming to have an MA believes that a dictionary definition is sufficient for talking about something this technical.

 

Why would the sources need to look at non-Western countries when we are talking about Canada? Why would you think that your anecdote is more valuable than empirical evidence?

 

Thinking that Saudia Arabia is more similar to Canada simply because of size rather than demographics is also silly.

 

I bet you didn't even read the sources I sent you... since they are behind a paywall and I'm beginning to doubt you're actually educated in a place that could afford to provide access to these articles. Give me a quote from one that is not in the abstract. If you actually did read them, you'd see that they did look at cultural differences via ethnicity. 

 

 

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On 5/10/2019 at 7:51 AM, Down by the River said:

 

What was your MA actually in? It certainly doesn't appear to be criminology, because here is the definition of propensity in criminology:

Not MA, MASc. Engineering. I also have a MSc in Compsci. My degree is not a random arts degree. So as i said, if you wish to discuss causation and correlation with a scientist, i am happy to engage you. 

 

I don't care what criminology says - my comment is made in simple english and in the sentence i used, the oxford dictionary definition applies, as well as being consistent with the idea represented. Ergo, your obfuscation is summarily dismissed. 

On 5/10/2019 at 7:51 AM, Down by the River said:

It is hilarious that someone claiming to have an MA believes that a dictionary definition is sufficient for talking about something this technical.

1. I have a MSc and MASc. Not MA. The difference is important.

2. My comment was NOT in the context of a criminology paper, it was a statement in English, where the propensity of X to commit Y equates to tendency/frequency etc, as the definition provided in the authority of English language ( the dictionaries). 

On 5/10/2019 at 7:51 AM, Down by the River said:

Why would the sources need to look at non-Western countries when we are talking about Canada? Why would you think that your anecdote is more valuable than empirical evidence?

Because whether sentencing work/don't work in terms of duration/ whether duration correlates to the propensity of re-offending, etc. are to be determined for members of species homo sapiens, you have to normalize for culture. Maybe sentencing in the western world has no correlation to reoffending because the western culture is broken and needs to change. This possibility/reality cannot be reflected if the analysis is not normalized for culture. 

On 5/10/2019 at 7:51 AM, Down by the River said:

 

I bet you didn't even read the sources I sent you... since they are behind a paywall and I'm beginning to doubt you're actually educated in a place that could afford to provide access to these articles. Give me a quote from one that is not in the abstract. If you actually did read them, you'd see that they did look at cultural differences via ethnicity. 

Cultural difference vis a vis ethnicity is not a cultural difference, its a demographic difference. Cultural variance between regions of the planet are far greater than within the same national framework in almost all cases, except for some historically super-diverse nations like India or Burma where there hasn't been an overwhelmingly dominant ethnic or cultural makeup. 

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On 5/8/2019 at 2:54 PM, kingofsurrey said:

Yes he has.  Charged but not convicted.

 

I would think the victims families to move forward in their grief process would like to see convictions and sentencing etc   Just some conclusion to this terrible crime.

 

10 years waiting for trial is a joke.....   and to me is not fair to the victims. 

Mistrial... surprise, surprise ;)

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On 5/11/2019 at 7:23 PM, canuckistani said:

Not MA, MASc. Engineering. I also have a MSc in Compsci. My degree is not a random arts degree. So as i said, if you wish to discuss causation and correlation with a scientist, i am happy to engage you. 

 

I don't care what criminology says - my comment is made in simple english and in the sentence i used, the oxford dictionary definition applies, as well as being consistent with the idea represented. Ergo, your obfuscation is summarily dismissed. 

1. I have a MSc and MASc. Not MA. The difference is important.

2. My comment was NOT in the context of a criminology paper, it was a statement in English, where the propensity of X to commit Y equates to tendency/frequency etc, as the definition provided in the authority of English language ( the dictionaries). 

Because whether sentencing work/don't work in terms of duration/ whether duration correlates to the propensity of re-offending, etc. are to be determined for members of species homo sapiens, you have to normalize for culture. Maybe sentencing in the western world has no correlation to reoffending because the western culture is broken and needs to change. This possibility/reality cannot be reflected if the analysis is not normalized for culture. 

Cultural difference vis a vis ethnicity is not a cultural difference, its a demographic difference. Cultural variance between regions of the planet are far greater than within the same national framework in almost all cases, except for some historically super-diverse nations like India or Burma where there hasn't been an overwhelmingly dominant ethnic or cultural makeup. 

Okay. If you really understand causality, explain to me where you have the actual empirical evidence that deterrence works. 

 

All you have is opinions and all I've provided is evidence based on research. 

 

 

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On 5/9/2019 at 8:40 PM, Alflives said:

Execute anyone who commits a violent crime.  Execute anyone who sells illegal drugs.  Don’t waste time and money on trials.  Just shoot the bad peoples.  We need a serious cull of the human species, so why not start with the worst of the scum?  

add pedophiles and human traffickers to the top of that list

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19 hours ago, Down by the River said:

Okay. If you really understand causality, explain to me where you have the actual empirical evidence that deterrence works. 

Middle east, China, India, they all say hello to the fact that deterrence works, given that such correlative data exists from these places. 

19 hours ago, Down by the River said:

All you have is opinions and all I've provided is evidence based on research. 

There is no evidence presented. Its a bunch of random, self-serving, incidental data, not an analysis based of all data. Its effectively whats called 'data mining'. 
Problem with deterrence working, is determining what exactly 'deterrence' constitutes. Some would say chain gangs are a part of deterrence that our legal system 'chickens out of'.

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