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[Speculation] Canucks all in for Jason Zucker

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On 9/8/2019 at 2:38 PM, Kanukfanatic said:

Huh? That isn't even a little bit correct. Jake's max was 15 goals last year and Ferland's peak was 21.  That means at Ferland's peak he scored 33% more goals than Jake at his peak. So no Jake has not yet approached Ferland's peak.

 

Regardless, hopefully Ferland scores even more playing with either Petey or Bo and as you stated, hopefully Jake brings his game to a new level this year also. We need both of them to have good years for this team to have a shot at the playoffs.

 

Virtanen

virtanen.PNG.4017d700f5011df1cb3c858f486e828b.PNG

 

Ferland

ferland.PNG.41c0c5000bb5ec56e38d3ab0c5956f58.PNG

 

a fair and reasonable argument here would site the fact that virtanen is 23 and ferland is 27.

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21 hours ago, Kanukfanatic said:

I won't get into either side of this discussion.

 

But 218 now is much heavier than the NHL average of 200 pounds. But the average back then was probably 190.

 

Edit: I was wrong. Average weight in 1990 is same as now. In 1979 it was 190. Yeah Neely was heavy for then....but Jake is heavy for now but not quite as much.

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/02/19/nhl-player-size-from-1917-18-to-2014-15-a-brief-look/

Now it's probably closer to that weight in actual lean muscle. Back then was more hamburgers, hot dogs and potato chips diet to attribute to the weight.

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17 hours ago, Yung1 said:

a fair and reasonable argument here would site the fact that virtanen is 23 and ferland is 27.

that's an awesome statistic and find

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On 9/9/2019 at 6:51 PM, IBatch said:

Nope.  Guys in the late eighties kept getting bigger and bigger - go check out our Linden teams and see how big they were compared to now - and that’s with Ronning ha ha.   Players have actually gotten smaller - mid nineties to mid 2000’s they were the biggest ever.  

 

That said it doesn’t matter how big a player is, it’s what he does with it and Neely would probably have fed Lucic his lunch in his prime - the league was way, way tougher back then.  

They were tougher overall but they didn't train boxing like the 2000s heavyweights did. Lucic, Boogeyman and Chris Neil would have a field day with most of the old school heavyweights.  

 

hockeyfights.com has a lot of Cam Neely's fights.  I'd put money on Lucic vs. 30 year old Neely. 

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9 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

They were tougher overall but they didn't train boxing like the 2000s heavyweights did. Lucic, Boogeyman and Chris Neil would have a field day with most of the old school heavyweights.  

 

hockeyfights.com has a lot of Cam Neely's fights.  I'd put money on Lucic vs. 30 year old Neely. 

What makes you think that some of those guys didn’t train as well?.  Chris Tamer was a boxer and other then one time one punching Probert to the ice wasn’t never close to a top enforcer.  The hey day of the enforcer was early 90’s to mid 2000’s,

 

 Neely fought way more and much better competition for the most part - Lucic has only fought a few actual enforcers his entire career.  Chris Neil - your joking right?  I have some mags from the early 90’s (when Neely was playing) and Lucic wouldn’t even crack the top 25 best fighters.   Probert, Brown, Baumgartner, Simon, Kocur, Twist, Ewen, McCarthy, Berube, Grimson, McSorley round out the top ten in 94 according to a Tuff Guys mag that ranks the best enforcers (still have a few of those from the early 90’s it was a big enough deal back then that a few company’s did this) ....Gino was 13.   I’m guessing you weren’t around for that period of hockey.    Neil is a decent light heavyweight and would have done ok back then too I’d agree on that - but wouldn’t crack the top 25 either.    Neely didn’t either but his quality of competition was way, way higher then Lucic.   One of Lucic early fights against an actual enforcer - he got into trouble early and called the linemans in to help - it was a story and he was heavily criticized for it given he didn’t mind it when he was pounding at some occasional fighter and usually  smaller then him but didn’t like it when up against a better fighter and losing.

 

In 95 Brashear had  Neely tied up and an arm free, he kept battling anyways and kept the linesman away.  Two totally different players.  Brashear would have clocked Lucic too but he wouldn’t have the balls to fight him in the first place.  Basil Mcrea,  Nilan, Williams and a whole bunch of other guys are on Neelys card - who’s on Lucic?  Thornburn and Prout !  Ha ha it’s laughable really.

 

edit:  We all know how much damage Chara can do - and he came into the league an enforcer.  He wasn’t considered that good at it either and was beaten often by better fighters.  Because better fighters existed back then.  Now nobody wants a piece of him because he’s the top dog.   Lucic isn’t bad fighter - but he’s completely outmatched compared to what there used to be.   

 

Edit:  thanks for the tip but I’ve been going on hockeyfights.com for well at least a decade...it’s the best site for it, unfortunately the quality and quantity has been going down pretty much the entire time 

Edited by IBatch
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19 minutes ago, IBatch said:

What makes you think that some of those guys didn’t train as well?.  Chris Tamer was a boxer and other then one time one punching Probert to the ice wasn’t never close to a top enforcer.  The hey day of the enforcer was early 90’s to mid 2000’s,

 

 Neely fought way more and much better competition for the most part - Lucic has only fought a few actual enforcers his entire career.  Chris Neil - your joking right?  I have some mags from the early 90’s (when Neely was playing) and Lucic wouldn’t even crack the top 25 best fighters.   Probert, Brown, Baumgartner, Simon, Kocur, Twist, Ewen, McCarthy, Berube, Grimson, McSorley round out the top ten in 94 according to a Tuff Guys mag that ranks the best enforcers (still have a few of those from the early 90’s it was a big enough deal back then that a few company’s did this) ....Gino was 13.   I’m guessing you weren’t around for that period of hockey.    Neil is a decent light heavyweight and would have done ok back then too I’d agree on that - but wouldn’t crack the top 25 either.    Neely didn’t either but his quality of competition was way, way higher then Lucic.   One of Lucic early fights against an actual enforcer - he got into trouble early and called the linemans in to help - it was a story and he was heavily criticized for it given he didn’t mind it when he was pounding at some occasional fighter and usually  smaller then him but didn’t like it when up against a better fighter and losing.

 

In 95 Brashear had  Neely tied up and an arm free, he kept battling anyways and kept the linesman away.  Two totally different players.  Brashear would have clocked Lucic too but he wouldn’t have the balls to fight him in the first place.  Basil Mcrea,  Nilan, Williams and a whole bunch of other guys are on Neelys card - who’s on Lucic?  Thornburn and Prout !  Ha ha it’s laughable really.

 

edit:  We all know how much damage Chara can do - and he came into the league an enforcer.  He wasn’t considered that good at it either and was beaten often by better fighters.  Because better fighters existed back then.  Now nobody wants a piece of him because he’s the top dog.   Lucic isn’t bad fighter - but he’s completely outmatched compared to what there used to be.   

 

Edit:  thanks for the tip but I’ve been going on hockeyfights.com for well at least a decade...it’s the best site for it, unfortunately the quality and quantity has been going down pretty much the entire time 

Lucic has fought the toughest guys from the beginning of his career to present.  Just because that happens to have been the Boogeyman and these days it's guys like Haley and Jared Boll doesn't change that fact. You seem to dislike him so we probably won't get far in terms of an objective discussion.

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1 hour ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Lucic has fought the toughest guys from the beginning of his career to present.  Just because that happens to have been the Boogeyman and these days it's guys like Haley and Jared Boll doesn't change that fact. You seem to dislike him so we probably won't get far in terms of an objective discussion.

I don’t dislike Lucic, it has nothing to do with it.  He’s a good fighter against guys that aren’t a match - and does fairly well against those that are.  You said Lucic, Boogeyman and Neil would have a field day with old school heavyweights and that they didn’t trained in boxing like in the 2000’s...  like that matters - your either good at it or your not.  Some also trained in jujitsu so they could hip throw guys - it got ridiculous.

 

I disagreed for what I consider obvious reasons.   Because I watched hockey throughout the nineties and before - this is what I’d suggest you do.  Start with watching the one hour documentary on the PHI flyers.   That takes you back to the 70’s and some of the most fight filled violent hockey we’ve ever had.  Lucic wouldn’t survive that without a big attitude adjustment (he likes to fight guys smaller and that aren’t actual enforcers - they were still around when he started but he stayed away for the most part and didn’t dominate when he did engage with a few mediocre ones).    

 

Then maybe watch Ice Gladiators, it’s a good look into enforcers and why they do what they do and how they came to be.   Yes some of these guys took boxing lessons way before the 2000’s, but I’d also say does it really matter - if your good at it your good at it - Shultz never fought in his life until PHI picked him up - turns out he loved it and was very good at it too.  They had four enforcers and almost every player would fight several times a year too.  Nobody is ever touching his almost 500 PIMs - he could play decent too-20 goals one year and set up one of PHIs cup winning goals.

 

I just found the comment naive - Boogyman was huge but only an average fighter - would usually take a lot more then he gave but the ones he gave could knock the biggest guys down.  McGratton (the last very good enforcer/fighter in the league), Brashear (who Neely fought and lost too in 95) and others own wins against him and Brashear was almost done by then.  Neil is a throwback - he’d do a good-decent job in any era.   Lucic is a bully who rarely fights anyone his size - but he’s tough and a good fighter so he’d do fine too.   But none of them would be top fighters since I’ve been alive - or expansion.   Today’s game is very tame bordering on international play.  From those old enough to comment and alive to watch hockey in the 50-60’s and write about it - ive read that game is reverted back to what it was like pre-enforcer - that is rolling four lines (back then seats at the table were very limited and fourth line guys were actually very good hockey players) .. and each player was expected to get their own respect and pretty much every player could stick up for themselves.  For decades stars have been protected by their big brothers.  Now they don’t have them anymore but the players don’t stick up for themselves the same way either - the league and the rule book is supposed to do that - and does a decent job I suppose, but slashing to the hands used to be an automatic beating or fight / instead the league had to step in to stop it (a year ago)...because no respect.  Code violation but nobody home to balance the books.  

 

Things have changed for sure.  Not sure for the better, until the players all figure out the rule book will never save them from rats, and that they have to stick up for themselves - there will always be a need for a policeman (what they used to call it).  

 

The way Crosby has been treated (although he sticks up for himself because he has too) over most of his career is disgusting - Gretzky has even commented on how this would never happen when he was playing, and wondered how well he’d have done without having to put up with all the cheap shots - if he was healthy his entire career etc.  

 

And now EP.  I was at the MTL game and had perfect view of how that a-hole took him out - it was absolutely deliberate.  He glanced at the ref and then did it - made sure he had his legs and rolled when it wasn’t necessary at all.  They got “tangled up” yeah right.  Zero response.   EP was 1.3 PPG up until then - on his way to score well over 100 as a rookie - and it think he would have if he had a big brother or two our there OR if he knew how to stick up for himself which players don’t grow up doing anymore.   Of subject for sure but since we are talking about fighters - if we had a few great ones who were willing to take a misconduct every time a player looked sideways at our stars, the league would take notice and leave them alone and just play hockey. 

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Fabulous post.  All guys could fight back in the 50’s and 70’s.  The heavy goons of the goon era would have been in the ECHL or IRON leagues.  The AHL for guys like Lucic, who could skate a bit.  None of those guys play in the old six team league.  Without modern skates their weight would make it impossible to get around much at all on the old skates too.  

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