[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[ilduce39]

19 minutes ago, BobbyClarke said:

A lot of people look at the PK Subban trade and assume the assets NJ gave up to get him make this a bad trade.  But its a totally different situation.  PK's cap hit is $9M/yr.  And that is a lot of money to tie up for that particular guy.

 

Getting Miller at $5M allows us the chance to go after a D Man like Myers.  As yourself, would you rather have $9M in cap space tied up for PK, or would you rather have roughly 12M for both JT Miller and Myers.

 

As for Miller himself, he's a 50 point guy with 14-15 minutes average ice time.  He plays a heavier game and seems like he would be a pretty good compliment to EP and BB.  He worked his way up the lineup in Tampa, and he's only 26.  That is worth a (non lottery) first round pick easy.

 

And as I said before, free agents want to get paid and they want to go to a winner and be in a good situation.  Getting JT helps us.  So how much is that worth?  Depends on who we can sign in FA.

It’s been lost under Loui’s albatross contract but JB has done a great job recently in locking up some key pieces for reasonable prices and minimal NTC’s. 

 

The work isn't done yet - Boeser needs to get done and we will see if he can shed the Eriksson deal (seems like he’s gone one way or another). Could be a masterful cap performance from this management group if it comes together.

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, BobbyClarke said:

A lot of people look at the PK Subban trade and assume the assets NJ gave up to get him make this a bad trade.  But its a totally different situation.  PK's cap hit is $9M/yr.  And that is a lot of money to tie up for that particular guy.

 

Getting Miller at $5M allows us the chance to go after a D Man like Myers.  As yourself, would you rather have $9M in cap space tied up for PK, or would you rather have roughly 12M for both JT Miller and Myers.

 

As for Miller himself, he's a 50 point guy with 14-15 minutes average ice time.  He plays a heavier game and seems like he would be a pretty good compliment to EP and BB.  He worked his way up the lineup in Tampa, and he's only 26.  That is worth a (non lottery) first round pick easy.

 

And as I said before, free agents want to get paid and they want to go to a winner and be in a good situation.  Getting JT helps us.  So how much is that worth?  Depends on who we can sign in FA.

Good points.  I particularly like what you said about other free agents paying attention.   I’m sure Benning is chopping at the bit right now waiting to talk to their agents soon (when the one week period starts)...WNP is going to do their best to keep Myers and it could create a bit of a bidding war to get him...Gardiner might end up the back-up plan which is ok too as he’d make a relatively decent Edler replacement long term (and allow us to trade Hutton which would factor into that signing, we’d get way more for him then say Beiga on the right side). 

 

I’m hopeful he can pull it off ... if not that’s ok too there is always next years crop and or a trade maybe in the works ..

[ForsbergTheGreat]

9 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Waiting for a UFA may not net you the player that you want. It may end in a bidding war and end up overpaying for their services.

 

I get your point, but to get a guy of his calibre at his age and contract. And for the record, I don't think Benning is suggesting the rebuild is over, but I believe the team has been trending exactly how I felt it should be so far where we were fighting for a wild card spot last season and either still in the wild card hunt or just squeaking into a playoff spot this upcoming season. If we miss the playoffs again, no harm no foul and I think we surely make the playoffs at the very least in the following year.

 

I get the concern about the D and there's still a long summer ahead, so we will see if and how that will get addressed. We could easily address the defense issue through UFA but it's the same concern as the forwards in that they likely get overpaid for what they bring and that's if they even choose you to sign with.

Actually I think you're missing the point.  Players like Miller are strong complimentary guys.  They are your, Coyle's, Johansson's, Kane's and Hossa's.  Players that aren't core foundation pieces, but pieces that help push your core over the top into the next level.  And Canucks are not at that spot yet.  We still have missing pieces in our core.  aka our back end.  And You're not getting a core defensemen in UFA,  Myers and Gardiner aren't those types (they are miller caliber complementary pieces).  Canucks NEED a core piece on that back end.  A D you can build around.  

 

So instead of trading our most attractive piece at a discounted value for a complimentary filler, we should have been using that to obtain that missing core D.  I'm not against trading our first, but at this point we don't have a ton of tradable assets, so the ones we do have, need to go towards packaging up and filling core pieces.  

 

In two years if Canucks are back in the playoff spot and looking for a player to get us over the hump.  Then you go get that complimentary player (like Gillis thought he was doing with Booth).

 

 

[thundernuts]

47 minutes ago, Spoosh said:

I say this once a year. CDC is a horrible place to be during the summer. I hang around until July 2nd and then I take a vacation as the stupidity rises to new levels about then. This year it seems to start early.

 

I loved to come here for news on trades as they often came out a bit early here vs. TSN or Sportsnet etc. Now we get the news off twitter and ’discuss’ them from there on. By page 3 the disussion is no longer on topic, it’s insult after another and people crying out loud like infants. It is a discussion board, we know, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. But in general all that looks like is a below average fan base. 

 

I think this board should be for positive stuff and motivation between fans. People here (minus just a few members) are just making a fool out of themselves. 

 

I personally like the trade. The only thing I dont like about it is the excitement a 1st round choice gives me. The anticipation, the potential. Other than that it’s just a gamble. Now we know what we get. I’m more than fine with this move. Bring on the season. Ok, july 1st and then the season!

 

Spoosh

Bang on.  

 

The only problem with your post is that it is based on logic, and rational thinking.  You should know by now that doesn’t generally translate well on these boards.

[86Viking]

25 minutes ago, BobbyClarke said:

A lot of people look at the PK Subban trade and assume the assets NJ gave up to get him make this a bad trade.  But its a totally different situation.  PK's cap hit is $9M/yr.  And that is a lot of money to tie up for that particular guy.

 

Getting Miller at $5M allows us the chance to go after a D Man like Myers.  As yourself, would you rather have $9M in cap space tied up for PK, or would you rather have roughly 12M for both JT Miller and Myers.

 

As for Miller himself, he's a 50 point guy with 14-15 minutes average ice time.  He plays a heavier game and seems like he would be a pretty good compliment to EP and BB.  He worked his way up the lineup in Tampa, and he's only 26.  That is worth a (non lottery) first round pick easy.

 

And as I said before, free agents want to get paid and they want to go to a winner and be in a good situation.  Getting JT helps us.  So how much is that worth?  Depends on who we can sign in FA.

You make a good point for sure. With Subban tho he only has 3 years left at 9m per and will be what 33 when it ends? Signing Myers will take at least 6 or 7rs at 6-7m per for a player who doesnt have the offensive background like subban as well as being 35-36 when his UFA contract is up.

 

So we got JT Miller and say Myers, I could turn that around and say we could have trade for Subban and signed say Simmonds both players are a bit older but wouldnt have long term contracts for the Canucks.

 

I think JT should fit well with us, I hope someone else lands Myers and we go the trade route for a different RHD who wont have near the term or salary Myers will command.

 

My biggest issue with Myers is he has been sheltered on Winnipeg on a team deep with RHD, He would be our appointed top pair RHD with a massive salary and NTC etc. Is he capable of that kind of pressure...if we sign him only time will tell. It is a risky move, I would hold off on going after Myers personally, ride the wave next year and address the D via trade or FA next summer. If Myers contract demands are reasonable thats a different story, but his agent must be thrilled to be talking to Vancouver on opening day of negotiations...GM JB overpays all his UFA signings, not to say other GM's dont but he structures them to be buyout proof and adds years to the deal to seal the deal...

[5nothincanucksohno]

33 minutes ago, BobbyClarke said:

A lot of people look at the PK Subban trade and assume the assets NJ gave up to get him make this a bad trade.  But its a totally different situation.  PK's cap hit is $9M/yr.  And that is a lot of money to tie up for that particular guy.

 

Getting Miller at $5M allows us the chance to go after a D Man like Myers.  As yourself, would you rather have $9M in cap space tied up for PK, or would you rather have roughly 12M for both JT Miller and Myers.

 

As for Miller himself, he's a 50 point guy with 14-15 minutes average ice time.  He plays a heavier game and seems like he would be a pretty good compliment to EP and BB.  He worked his way up the lineup in Tampa, and he's only 26.  That is worth a (non lottery) first round pick easy.

 

And as I said before, free agents want to get paid and they want to go to a winner and be in a good situation.  Getting JT helps us.  So how much is that worth?  Depends on who we can sign in FA.

Word is that Van was unwilling to take on PK's full cap hit...hence them not moving on the deal. $9M for three years is a big price to pay for a diminishing player (with back issues)

[5nothincanucksohno]

3 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

You make a good point for sure. With Subban tho he only has 3 years left at 9m per and will be what 33 when it ends? Signing Myers will take at least 6 or 7rs at 6-7m per for a player who doesnt have the offensive background like subban as well as being 35-36 when his UFA contract is up.

 

So we got JT Miller and say Myers, I could turn that around and say we could have trade for Subban and signed say Simmonds both players are a bit older but wouldnt have long term contracts for the Canucks.

 

I think JT should fit well with us, I hope someone else lands Myers and we go the trade route for a different RHD who wont have near the term or salary Myers will command.

 

My biggest issue with Myers is he has been sheltered on Winnipeg on a team deep with RHD, He would be our appointed top pair RHD with a massive salary and NTC etc. Is he capable of that kind of pressure...if we sign him only time will tell. It is a risky move, I would hold off on going after Myers personally, ride the wave next year and address the D via trade or FA next summer. If Myers contract demands are reasonable thats a different story, but his agent must be thrilled to be talking to Vancouver on opening day of negotiations...GM JB overpays all his UFA signings, not to say other GM's dont but he structures them to be buyout proof and adds years to the deal to seal the deal...

Agreed Myers is a bad play unless for some crazy reason the Canucks get him for two or three years (not going to happen).

 

I would put PK even lower down the list of desirable d-men though given his cap hit and back injury issues.

[ilduce39]

22 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

So instead of trading our most attractive piece at a discounted value for a complimentary filler, we should have been using that to obtain that missing core D.  I'm not against trading our first, but at this point we don't have a ton of tradable assets, so the ones we do have, need to go towards packaging up and filling core pieces.  

 

If I have a gripe about this trade, it’s exactly this.  I’d have rather spent that prime asset on a 20-something RHD.

 

If Miller becomes a “Burrows” or “Morrison” complementary piece for Brock and Petey though I guess it’s worth it.  The complementary player who pushes a pair of stars over the top.  

 

Edit: to clarify, “worth it” as in more worth it than a top 4 d.  I still think this is a decent trade; I’m just fixated on the back end if the goal is playoffs in 2 years.

Edited June 23, 2019 by ilduce39

[The Vancouver Connection]

Fire Jimbo

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

I just don't see it that way.  It was a moderately steep price, but he went after a pretty sure thing.......a big, consistent scoring winger on an excellent deal for 4 more years, without giving up a first this year and lottery protected next year. 

 

That doesn't seem desperate to me........it seems like someone who believes his young core of drafted players can win in the next two years.  To me, the move was a vote of confidence, not one of a GM grasping for a life raft 

My simple hockey mind tells me Stawns that the Canucks were physically challenged in the top 6 forward group last year. Benning adds Leivo, Pearson, Miller and drafts Pod. We can debate whether Leivo or Pearson are top 6 players but Green now has more options. Especially true if Jake can break to the upside this season. It certainly provides a better group for the skill forwards to gain some space. I like it. 

 

My cynical nature tells me that the 'reporters', whether print or on air have to jive up their audiences to met their $ targets. Anyone who does not think they have regular meetings about this are naive. Controversy generates "clicks" as this thread demonstrates. IMHO Benning is the real deal and he is not leaving anytime soon. 

[stanleysteamersmyl]

10 hours ago, canucks74sy said:

I don't like this trade,it's smells of desperation. Considering the Cap circumstances in TB, Benning should have come out on top and not pay have to pay fair value. I believe, he paid too heavy a price. If Canucks make the the playoffs because of adding JT Miller, then fine. But no need to give up a 3rd round pick. Overpaid. But if we don't make the playoffs, or Miller does not live up to expectation then we are in big trouble. The first round draft pick in 2021 would be very valuable.

Tampa will (Vancouver's 1st round) pick 32nd overall.

[Neil HD]

26 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

You make a good point for sure. With Subban tho he only has 3 years left at 9m per and will be what 33 when it ends? Signing Myers will take at least 6 or 7rs at 6-7m per for a player who doesnt have the offensive background like subban as well as being 35-36 when his UFA contract is up.

 

So we got JT Miller and say Myers, I could turn that around and say we could have trade for Subban and signed say Simmonds both players are a bit older but wouldnt have long term contracts for the Canucks.

 

I think JT should fit well with us, I hope someone else lands Myers and we go the trade route for a different RHD who wont have near the term or salary Myers will command.

 

My biggest issue with Myers is he has been sheltered on Winnipeg on a team deep with RHD, He would be our appointed top pair RHD with a massive salary and NTC etc. Is he capable of that kind of pressure...if we sign him only time will tell. It is a risky move, I would hold off on going after Myers personally, ride the wave next year and address the D via trade or FA next summer. If Myers contract demands are reasonable thats a different story, but his agent must be thrilled to be talking to Vancouver on opening day of negotiations...GM JB overpays all his UFA signings, not to say other GM's dont but he structures them to be buyout proof and adds years to the deal to seal the deal...

I don't think he'll necessarily be used like a top pairing guy. More like Myers will be trusted to take on some of Tanev's workload while getting offensive opportunities.

 

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

 

I firmly believe Tanev has been injured so often precisely because he is playing too many hard defensive minutes on a team that has struggled with cleanly driving the play to the offensive zone, and no other RD can be safely trusted with that responsibility. Adding some quality help could change that.
Granted, it doesn't have to be Myers, it just has to be good enough.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Neil HD

[The Great Canucks]

7 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

If a new GM comes in there won't be massive changes. The core is already in place, at that point he'll just be trying to add to that group. Except hopefully he's actually half decent on the pro-side.

 

At this point it doesn't matter to me what happens with Jim. The asset management under this regime has been terrible, and now we have mortgaged the future. 

 

Personally I want to be in the playoffs, and if we give up next years pick atleast we've gotten over with rather than risking a lottery pick.

 

But valuewise next years draft will be better than 2021 & we'll have another year to build the team, so from that standpoint I do hope it ends up being a 18-25 first rounder in 2021.

Excuse me? How the hell did we mortgage our future? Our Future is being built around Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser and Hughes and they are all still here.

 

Give me a @#$%ing break!

[Stelar]

So after sleeping on this I am still not pumped about giving up a first. But let’s be honest, Bo, Brock, EP and Quinn aren’t interested in first round picks. They want to win games. Miller helps us win games. We owe it to the young core to get better. 

[86Viking]

12 minutes ago, Neil HD said:

I don't think he'll necessarily be used like a top pairing guy. More like Myers will be trusted to take on some of Tanev's workload while getting offensive opportunities.

If we pay myer 6-7m he wont be used anywhere but the top pair, who is better than him on our team...not Stecher and Tanev should be sheltered to 17-20 min a night to hope he can stay healthy so he can be dealt at the deadline.

 

Myers if he signs will be the Edler of the right side, he will play 24-25min night sometimes more when called upon

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, Stelar said:

So after sleeping on this I am still not pumped about giving up a first. But let’s be honest, Bo, Brock, EP and Quinn aren’t interested in first round picks. They want to win games. Miller helps us win games. We owe it to the young core to get better. 

Exactly right

[theo5789]

22 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Actually I think you're missing the point.  Players like Miller are strong complimentary guys.  They are your, Coyle's, Johansson's, Kane's and Hossa's.  Players that aren't core foundation pieces, but pieces that help push your core over the top into the next level.  And Canucks are not at that spot yet.  We still have missing pieces in our core.  aka our back end.  And You're not getting a core defensemen in UFA,  Myers and Gardiner aren't those types (they are miller caliber complementary pieces).  Canucks NEED a core piece on that back end.  A D you can build around.  

 

So instead of trading our most attractive piece at a discounted value for a complimentary filler, we should have been using that to obtain that missing core D.  I'm not against trading our first, but at this point we don't have a ton of tradable assets, so the ones we do have, need to go towards packaging up and filling core pieces.  

 

In two years if Canucks are back in the playoff spot and looking for a player to get us over the hump.  Then you go get that complimentary player (like Gillis thought he was doing with Booth).

 

 

Fair enough point. We don't know who's actually available to help us on the back end and maybe Benning had inquired about the cost to acquire one and it was simply too steep.

 

Miller might only be a strong complimentary piece, but if it helps elevate our youth, is that so bad? We are looking at what should be a mid-late 1st as the condition is set which IMO is not a discounted value. I don't think we get a "core" dman under the same conditions without adding even more.

 

All I know is we were looking for more grit in the top 6 with speed and skill and we found a guy here. We don't know what the market is like down the road and who might even be available to fill the same role. Benning found a guy that he feels will be a good fit with his age and style of play and is signed to a reasonable deal through some of his best prime years.

[mll]

41 minutes ago, rekker said:

I wonder how many teams would of offered a lot for PK. Fans can say all they want but where there is smoke theres fire. I personally can't stand guys like him on my team. Hockey is all about team, best team sport on the planet. When I played my teammates were as important as I was. PK is about himself, spotlights, and his dumb hats. He's not even good defensively. Easily the most overrated player in the NHL IMHO. 

Subban was very appreciated in Nashville.  Poile again said it was a business trade and not a hockey trade - they would have kept him if not the cap.   

 

Laviolette feels the opposite.  For him Subban's defensive game is underrated.  In Nashville he was their shutdown pairing.  

 

Poile started his conference on the trade by saying "The first thing I want to say is that how good P.K. was for the Predators, both on and off the ice".  He says "he was great on the ice and was even more fabulous off the ice".  

You can listen to him here:

https://www.nhl.com/predators/video/poile-discusses-subban-trade/t-277437416/c-68543203  

 

[Dr. Crossbar]

12 minutes ago, Stelar said:

So after sleeping on this I am still not pumped about giving up a first. But let’s be honest, Bo, Brock, EP and Quinn aren’t interested in first round picks. They want to win games. Miller helps us win games. We owe it to the young core to get better. 

Nice way to put it. And by getting better, this team becomes more attractive for other players to want to sign here and be part of getting even better. 

[Pete M]

25 minutes ago, The Great Canucks said:

Excuse me? How the hell did we mortgage our future? Our Future is being built around Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser and Hughes and they are all still here.

 

Give me a @#$%ing break!

,,,can add Miller to our future...so we are paying our mortgage down...a lot better than renting.