J.T. Miller | #9 | C/W

[MeanSeanBean]

20 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

you know what

this is silly

cloaking yourself in the majority who freak out at a jb trade

especially where a draft pick is involved

does nothing to enhance your earlier position

 

be a man

admit you were wrong

that is the most straight forward and honest outcome

 

so few on these boards admit they were incorrect about an assessment

and do a stupid dance around what is obvious

 

not picking on your personally

but you are involved in a recent post exchange

which is a good example of what happens too often on these boards

 

Be a man? My original post was I didn't like the trade. Do I like the trade now? Yeah, of course I do. Did I like the trade then? No, I didn't. Those are opinions, they can change. But that doesn't change the fact that in the day it happened I wasn't into the idea of trade a first round pick.

 

I'm still not into trading draft choices. I love the draft, I thoroughly enjoy following young players and trying to predict where players are going to be drafted. I'm actively bummed we likely won't have a pick in the first 2 rounds of this draft. Would I rather have JT and Tyler, yeah I would, I'm glad Benning made those trades. But that still doesn't change my opinion that I don't like trading picks.

 

The point of this whole conversation is a poster pulling up posts from almost a year ago to try to make a point. That's not how you have a conversation. If you start every conversation by bringing up something said in the past, it generally doesn't go well. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by shayster007

[Blömqvist]

2 hours ago, GoldenAlien said:

 

Shorty and Cheech were lauding Virtanen on the play he made that led to tonight's Pearson goal. After the replay the camera zoomed in on Miller who was hugging Virtanen on the bench and (presumably) giving him words of encouragement. Looked like a big bro/little bro moment.

[coastal.view]

2 hours ago, shayster007 said:

Be a man? My original post was I didn't like the trade. Do I like the trade now? Yeah, of course I do. Did I like the trade then? No, I didn't. Those are opinions, they can change. But that doesn't change the fact that in the day it happened I wasn't into the idea of trade a first round pick.

 

I'm still not into trading draft choices. I love the draft, I thoroughly enjoy following young players and trying to predict where players are going to be drafted. I'm actively bummed we likely won't have a pick in the first 2 rounds of this draft. Would I rather have JT and Tyler, yeah I would, I'm glad Benning made those trades. But that still doesn't change my opinion that I don't like trading picks.

 

The point of this whole conversation is a poster pulling up posts from almost a year ago to try to make a point. That's not how you have a conversation. If you start every conversation by bringing up something said in the past, it generally doesn't go well. 

ok then

that is a solid no on your part

i get that

[aGENT]

12 hours ago, GoldenAlien said:

 

Trade paying huge dividends on and off the ice 

[Tre Mac]

14 hours ago, iceman64 said:

P.S. psssst.. whose our leading scorer? And while your at it how much are most top line players in the league going for these days? As of now he's ahead of Malkin in points and Malkin is making 9.5 mil this season.. how much are we paying JT this season? 

And how much we paying Beagle, Erikksson, Sutter, and Roussel?  Lol...  So we got Miller on a good deal to help offset those 4 over payments. 

[kloubek]

I am really surprised that Miller didn't make a better name for himself before coming here. I wanted him well before Benning got him, but never thought he would be this good.

 

Not sure what clicked in Vancouver compared to his prior career, but we really couldn't ask for more. He is easily one of our hardest working players, hard to get off the puck, is excellent at creating space (especially on the boards where he regularly fakes guys out), has a good shot and quick release, and seems to be a good leader. 

 

If you consider the likelihood of a mid 1st round pick being a top 3 player (even with Benning's good record) this seems to be one of the best trades Benning has ever made.

 

I actually really feel for the guy that he has performed so well and tries to hard that our team is just barely clinging to a playoff position now. The rest of the team would be best off noting his style of play and trying to replicate it, and we would be in a much better position right now.

[MeanSeanBean]

15 hours ago, coastal.view said:

ok then

that is a solid no on your part

i get that

What more do you want? I said I didn't like the trade, and said I now like the trade (though my opinion on trading picks has not changed, in some cases it's a necessary evil). My opinion on the player has not changed. I liked him then, love him now. My opinion on price we paid for him hasn't changed at all. I believe on the day we traded for him we payed market value for JT, which ended up being likely Bennings best none drafting move (that coming from a vocal Benning supporter)

 

I also reserve the right to change my mind again at the draft in 2021 if this conversation has slipped us into the darkest timeline, we miss the playoffs the next 2 years, that pick is a lotto pick, and the Canucks surrender their first every lotto win.

 

The closest comparable this year that I could think of was Jason Zucker. Both were a similar age when traded, have similar point totals, and term with a similar contract. Both trades main transaction was a 1st going one way and the trade center going the other. Our pick was a 3rd, theirs was. 2nd round prospect. I think Galchenyuk likely had negative value due to his year/contract so I think that adds up decently. The JT Miller trade is better value, but that is the closest comparable I can find this year. So I disagree that on the day we traded for him it was a steal, I think we payed the asking price for JT on that day. A year later, that trade looks to be a steal.

 

I really don't know what your asking me to admit. My opinion on this whole conversation hasn't changed at all either. I thinking quoting a post from almost a year ago is a really ridiculous way to start a conversation. In regards to the quote you originally posted,  that was low hanging fruit. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by shayster007

[MeanSeanBean]

16 hours ago, Grape said:

Well I think you're just being immature now with these responses lol

 

Let's say we had the first overall pick in the 2018 draft, and picked Quinn Hughes. I would've loved the pick due to my personal allegiance and my strong belief that Hughes was a top 2 player in the draft. However, if people were to make a point today, that we could've perhaps traded back a few spots and then picked Hughes, I wouldn't say they're wrong either, even though I was right in my unpopular original opinion

Thanks for the back up last night. I started to question my memory of the events and started a Reddit post attempting to gain clarity since there was no discussion happening around here. Thought maybe I was misremembering the event since I was at work when the trade happened and my initial reaction was shock that we traded a first round pick on draft day after finishing bottom 5.

 

 

 

So far can't find anyone else that doesn't agree that we we did indeed pay the current market price for Miller at the time.

Edited March 5, 2020 by shayster007

[aGENT]

20 hours ago, shayster007 said:

So far can't find anyone else that doesn't agree that we we did indeed pay the current market price for Miller at the time.

 

On 3/4/2020 at 9:25 PM, aGENT said:

Yes. It was.

I said as much at the time of the trade.

 

Many people holding the same poor opinion doesn't make them correct.

 

[MeanSeanBean]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

 

 

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

 

And just because your stubborn doesn't make you right. I think your wrong, as does the general consensus. Have a good day bud, I like you as a poster but you are acting beyond ridiculous.

[aGENT]

40 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

 

And just because your stubborn doesn't make you right. I think your wrong, as does the general consensus. Have a good day bud, I like you as a poster but you are acting beyond ridiculous.

Nope. Reality makes me right 

[MeanSeanBean]

3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Nope. Reality makes me right 

If you can provide me with one expert, a person who covers hockey for a living, who at the time of the JT Miller trade declared it as "a steal" or "below market price" we can end this conversation once for and for all.

 

I tried to do some research to see if I could, but I would like to know why you are so sure of yourself with your evaluation.

 

https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/canucks-trade-for-j-t-miller-from-the-tampa-bay-lightning-1.23864437

"The Canucks didn’t get a discount for providing that cap relief, however, as a first and a third seems a significant price for Miller. Perhaps that’s the price you pay to acquire a top-six winger and Miller could well be worth it for years to come."

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/lightning-mcdonagh-miller-trade-revisit/

 

"At the draft, Miller was sent to the Vancouver Canucks, returning a 2020 first-round selection and a 2019 third-rounder. All in all, this was a fantastic move by both parties, as the Lightning cleared needed cap space while getting a premium return while the Canucks got a great player who has helped the franchise push for a 2020 playoff berth."

 

 

So here it is aGent. If you can provide me with at least a single expert who believed at the time the price we payed was under market value for JT Miller, I will at least admit that there could be a second evaluation augment. With my very limited research skills where I could find the actual value of the trade addressed, the general consensus at the time across media, and fans, and the current fan base when looking back at the trade, think we payed the market value ( I agree with) or even a premium for the player. I just want one valid argument to say other wise that can convince me otherwise. Just a single person against all the opinions that agree with me.

[Alflives]

15 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

If you can provide me with one expert, a person who covers hockey for a living, who at the time of the JT Miller trade declared it as "a steal" or "below market price" we can end this conversation once for and for all.

 

I tried to do some research to see if I could, but I would like to know why you are so sure of yourself with your evaluation.

 

https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/canucks-trade-for-j-t-miller-from-the-tampa-bay-lightning-1.23864437

"The Canucks didn’t get a discount for providing that cap relief, however, as a first and a third seems a significant price for Miller. Perhaps that’s the price you pay to acquire a top-six winger and Miller could well be worth it for years to come."

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/lightning-mcdonagh-miller-trade-revisit/

 

"At the draft, Miller was sent to the Vancouver Canucks, returning a 2020 first-round selection and a 2019 third-rounder. All in all, this was a fantastic move by both parties, as the Lightning cleared needed cap space while getting a premium return while the Canucks got a great player who has helped the franchise push for a 2020 playoff berth."

 

 

So here it is aGent. If you can provide me with at least a single expert who believed at the time the price we payed was under market value for JT Miller, I will at least admit that there could be a second evaluation augment. With my very limited research skills where I could find the actual value of the trade addressed, the general consensus at the time across media, and fans, and the current fan base when looking back at the trade, think we payed the market value ( I agree with) or even a premium for the player. I just want one valid argument to say other wise that can convince me otherwise. Just a single person against all the opinions that agree with me.

I think you’re getting a silly meme back. 

[MeanSeanBean]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think you’re getting a silly meme back. 

I don't think so, and I sincerely hope not. I would expect much more out of one of the highest posting members on the forum. We already have one silly high posting member around here, Alfy 

[aGENT]

47 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

If you can provide me with one expert, a person who covers hockey for a living, who at the time of the JT Miller trade declared it as "a steal" or "below market price" we can end this conversation once for and for all.

 

I tried to do some research to see if I could, but I would like to know why you are so sure of yourself with your evaluation.

 

https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/canucks-trade-for-j-t-miller-from-the-tampa-bay-lightning-1.23864437

"The Canucks didn’t get a discount for providing that cap relief, however, as a first and a third seems a significant price for Miller. Perhaps that’s the price you pay to acquire a top-six winger and Miller could well be worth it for years to come."

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/lightning-mcdonagh-miller-trade-revisit/

 

"At the draft, Miller was sent to the Vancouver Canucks, returning a 2020 first-round selection and a 2019 third-rounder. All in all, this was a fantastic move by both parties, as the Lightning cleared needed cap space while getting a premium return while the Canucks got a great player who has helped the franchise push for a 2020 playoff berth."

 

 

So here it is aGent. If you can provide me with at least a single expert who believed at the time the price we payed was under market value for JT Miller, I will at least admit that there could be a second evaluation augment. With my very limited research skills where I could find the actual value of the trade addressed, the general consensus at the time across media, and fans, and the current fan base when looking back at the trade, think we payed the market value ( I agree with) or even a premium for the player. I just want one valid argument to say other wise that can convince me otherwise. Just a single person against all the opinions that agree with me.

Those 'experts' (pundits) opinions aren't worth a lot most of the time FWIW (most are less knowledgeable than a lot of fans and simply have press creds). But I do seem to recall there was a couple being very approving, who had some understanding of the quality of player we were getting and what they'd normally be traded for (more than we paid). Can't remember who exactly off the top of my head. There's probably a tweet or two if you want to dig through the trade thread. Or perhaps someone else remembers.

 

Most, particularly in our local garbage media, were laughingly not approving. Just further evidence to take most of their opinions with a large grain of salt. Particularly the usual suspects (I think JD Burke is still trying to claim it was a bad move  ).

 

You want a 'valid argument' for his trade worth, look at what a player like Pageau got at the TDL as a potential rental (not a guy with term on a VERY good value contract...though they did re-sign him). Look at comparables. Consider how much you'd want back for Horvat if we were to trade him (probably our next closest comparable). I mean we have a bit of a cap crunch this summer, would you move Horvat at the discount rate we paid for Miller? A conditional, likely mid-late 1st some time in the next two years, a 3rd and a throwaway goalie? Come on...

 

Their valuation was wrong then and it's been subsequently proven wrong by the reality of Miller's play. That they were ignorant of his player value and/or the trade value to acquire a player like that is on them. I don't 'blame' you for listening to them, they are 'experts' after all . But to continue to claim that we somehow 'overpaid' is patently false. THAT is on you. Whether almost everyone else agreed with you that the world was flat at the time, doesn't particularly matter

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by aGENT

[MeanSeanBean]

5 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Those 'experts' (pundits) opinions aren't worth a lot most of the time FWIW (most are less knowledgeable than a lot of fans and simply have press creds). But I do seem to recall there was a couple being very approving, who had some understanding of the quality of player we were getting and what they'd normally be traded for (more than we paid). Can't remember who exactly off the top of my head. There's probably a tweet or two if you want to dig through the trade thread. Or perhaps someone else remembers.

 

Most, particularly in our local garbage media, were laughingly not approving. Just further evidence to take most of their opinions with a large grain of salt. Particularly the usual suspects (I think JD Burke is still trying to claim it was a bad move  ).

 

You want a 'valid argument' for his trade worth, look at what a player like Pageau got at the TDL as a potential rental (not a guy with term on a VERY good value contract...though they did re-sign him). Look at comparables. Consider how much you'd want back for Horvat if we were to trade him (probably our next closest comparable). I mean we have a bit of a cap crunch this summer, would you move Horvat at the discount rate we paid for Miller? A conditional, likely mid-late 1st some time in the next two years, a 3rd and a throwaway goalie? Come on...

 

Their valuation was wrong then and it's been subsequently proven wrong by the reality of Miller's play. That they were ignorant of his player value and/or the trade value to acquire a player like that is on them. I don't 'blame' you for listening to them, they are 'experts' after all . But to continue to claim that we somehow 'overpaid' is patently false. THAT is on you. Whether almost everyone else agreed with you that the world was flat at the time, doesn't particularly matter

 

 

 

 

Ok, so you can't.

 

Thank you aGENT, this conversation has reached it's natural conclusion.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, shayster007 said:

Ok, so you can't.

 

Thank you aGENT, this conversation has reached it's natural conclusion.

Sure. Earth's still not flat though

[MeanSeanBean]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Sure. Earth's still not flat though

Sure it is, and it will keep on spinning itself on its y axis for as long as your stubborn and incorrect. Have a good day.

Edited March 6, 2020 by shayster007

[aGENT]

10 minutes ago, shayster007 said:

Sure it is, and it will keep on spinning itself on its y axis for as long as your stubborn and incorrect. Have a good day.

Where have I been incorrect exactly...?

[Gaudette Celly]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:28 PM, aGENT said:

You guys are the ones who keep posting how he was traded for 'fair market blah, blah'. I'm correcting you, not seeking validation.

Exactly this.  They went from raging and hating on the "overpayment" to realizing they were wrong, but still can't admit how wrong so they now try the halfway house of "well, it was fair market value I guess."  Big lesson learned regarding making declarations on players one has no idea about.

 

It was a good trade then and in hindsight has become an excellent trade.  Quit trying to salvage pride and just admit it.  At least you'll be ahead of JD Burke.