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1 minute ago, Gaudette Celly said:

Exactly this.  They went from raging and hating on the "overpayment" to realizing they were wrong, but still can't admit how wrong so they now try the halfway house of "well, it was fair market value I guess."  Big lesson learned regarding making declarations on players one has no idea about.

 

It was a good trade then and in hindsight has become an excellent trade.  Quit trying to salvage pride and just admit it.  At least you'll be ahead of JD Burke.

Yup. I'm sorry but I'm just not going to let people get away with:

 

"The world was flat at the time of the trade. Almost everyone agreed it was flat. It only subsequently became round later this season."

 

Own it and quit letting your ego trick you that world has been changing shape on you. The mental gymnastics, I tell you...:lol: And worst of all, quit posting it here as fact that the world changed shape. It either was flat and remains so, or it was actually round all along.

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3 hours ago, shayster007 said:

If you can provide me with one expert, a person who covers hockey for a living, who at the time of the JT Miller trade declared it as "a steal" or "below market price" we can end this conversation once for and for all.

 

I tried to do some research to see if I could, but I would like to know why you are so sure of yourself with your evaluation.

 

https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/canucks-trade-for-j-t-miller-from-the-tampa-bay-lightning-1.23864437

"The Canucks didn’t get a discount for providing that cap relief, however, as a first and a third seems a significant price for Miller. Perhaps that’s the price you pay to acquire a top-six winger and Miller could well be worth it for years to come."

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/lightning-mcdonagh-miller-trade-revisit/

 

"At the draft, Miller was sent to the Vancouver Canucks, returning a 2020 first-round selection and a 2019 third-rounder. All in all, this was a fantastic move by both parties, as the Lightning cleared needed cap space while getting a premium return while the Canucks got a great player who has helped the franchise push for a 2020 playoff berth."

 

 

So here it is aGent. If you can provide me with at least a single expert who believed at the time the price we payed was under market value for JT Miller, I will at least admit that there could be a second evaluation augment. With my very limited research skills where I could find the actual value of the trade addressed, the general consensus at the time across media, and fans, and the current fan base when looking back at the trade, think we payed the market value ( I agree with) or even a premium for the player. I just want one valid argument to say other wise that can convince me otherwise. Just a single person against all the opinions that agree with me.

Pretty sure Burke liked the trade.  But who cares, it was a good trade...end of story.  

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19 minutes ago, J-Dizzle said:

Pretty sure Burke liked the trade.  But who cares, it was a good trade...end of story.  

Great trade. And that's good to know! I actually really like Burke and respect his opinion a lot. He's a crazy old man, I love crazy old men, my pops a crazy old man.

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Baffled by the last couple of pages.  Does anyone think it wasn't a worthwhile trade now?  No?  So what's the problem here?  If GMJB played real hardball the third could've been a fourth?  Maybe we toss in a mid-level prospect like Brisebois instead of a pick?  Because the trade deadline has shown that you're not getting a top six power forward in their prime, on a good contract, without dealing out a first or a blue chip prospect.  So the only real variable is that third rounder.  When TSN updated its draft pick analysis in 2018, picks in the #63 - #72 range (Canucks gave up #71) had a 8.8% chance of becoming a top 6 F, top 4 D or #1 G.  Hardly the most valuable of assets.

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6 hours ago, aGENT said:

Those 'experts' (pundits) opinions aren't worth a lot most of the time FWIW (most are less knowledgeable than a lot of fans and simply have press creds). But I do seem to recall there was a couple being very approving, who had some understanding of the quality of player we were getting and what they'd normally be traded for (more than we paid). Can't remember who exactly off the top of my head. There's probably a tweet or two if you want to dig through the trade thread. Or perhaps someone else remembers.

 

Most, particularly in our local garbage media, were laughingly not approving. Just further evidence to take most of their opinions with a large grain of salt. Particularly the usual suspects (I think JD Burke is still trying to claim it was a bad move :lol: ).

 

You want a 'valid argument' for his trade worth, look at what a player like Pageau got at the TDL as a potential rental (not a guy with term on a VERY good value contract...though they did re-sign him). Look at comparables. Consider how much you'd want back for Horvat if we were to trade him (probably our next closest comparable). I mean we have a bit of a cap crunch this summer, would you move Horvat at the discount rate we paid for Miller? A conditional, likely mid-late 1st some time in the next two years, a 3rd and a throwaway goalie? Come on...

 

Their valuation was wrong then and it's been subsequently proven wrong by the reality of Miller's play. That they were ignorant of his player value and/or the trade value to acquire a player like that is on them. I don't 'blame' you for listening to them, they are 'experts' after all :rolleyes:. But to continue to claim that we somehow 'overpaid' is patently false. THAT is on you. Whether almost everyone else agreed with you that the world was flat at the time, doesn't particularly matter ;)

 

 

 

 

Who exactly are you talking about? I thought everyone thought it was a good trade other than a few cdc people.  Even JD Burke was for it!

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16 minutes ago, Westcoasting said:

Who exactly are you talking about? I thought everyone thought it was a good trade other than a few cdc people.  Even JD Burke was for it!

No, he most decidedly wasn't.

 

Most of our local media  likewise, was doing their usual myopic, tabloid grade, sensationalistic shrieking as well.

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2 hours ago, GoldenAlien said:

Baffled by the last couple of pages.  Does anyone think it wasn't a worthwhile trade now?  No?  So what's the problem here?  If GMJB played real hardball the third could've been a fourth?  Maybe we toss in a mid-level prospect like Brisebois instead of a pick?  Because the trade deadline has shown that you're not getting a top six power forward in their prime, on a good contract, without dealing out a first or a blue chip prospect.  So the only real variable is that third rounder.  When TSN updated its draft pick analysis in 2018, picks in the #63 - #72 range (Canucks gave up #71) had a 8.8% chance of becoming a top 6 F, top 4 D or #1 G.  Hardly the most valuable of assets.

I doubt anyone thinks this is a bad trade now. The conversation I was engaged in was if we had paid market value for the player or not, which we had. 

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1 hour ago, shayster007 said:

I doubt anyone thinks this is a bad trade now. The conversation I was engaged in was if we had paid market value for the player or not, which we had. 

It's not aimed at you but the whole thing seems like a winless argument.  Unless someone thinks the trade is a massive overpayment or a steal of the century, there's no way to definitively say whether something is slightly above, below, or exactly market value.  Barring full access to BriseBois's office and seeing all the offers on the table, how does anyone know if the deal couldn't have been a first and a fourth, or a first and a second?  It's like criticizing the 2017 draft.  Maybe Benning could've gotten the extra second and still get EP40 after moving down.  Or maybe we'd be watching Glass or Mittelstadt in Utica right now. 

 

At the end of the day, these moves worked out, and whatever little extra that could've been squeezed out are effectively inconsequential.  It's confounding why anyone bothers to spend energy putting down a trade that resulted in a win for their own team.

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2 minutes ago, GoldenAlien said:

It's not aimed at you but the whole thing seems like a winless argument.  Unless someone thinks the trade is a massive overpayment or a steal of the century, there's no way to definitively say whether something is slightly above, below, or exactly market value.  Barring full access to BriseBois's office and seeing all the offers on the table, how does anyone know if the deal couldn't have been a first and a fourth, or a first and a second?  It's like criticizing the 2017 draft.  Maybe Benning could've gotten the extra second and still get EP40 after moving down.  Or maybe we'd be watching Glass or Mittelstadt in Utica right now. 

 

At the end of the day, these moves worked out, and whatever little extra that could've been squeezed out are effectively inconsequential.  It's confounding why anyone bothers to spend energy putting down a trade that resulted in a win for their own team.

I think I got defensive because this entire conversation started because a poster quoted me from the day the trade happened, when I was not a fan of the trade. At the time I felt Miller was a great player, and it was fair value, we just weren't the right team at the time to be coughing up first round picks. That's why Benning is GM and not me, Benning knows best, and the trade has worked out perfectly. 

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3 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

Who exactly are you talking about? I thought everyone thought it was a good trade other than a few cdc people.  Even JD Burke was for it!

Check my sig, the quote was from only a couple months ago.  I rarely listen to him, but have never heard him say anything positive or even neutral about anything Benning has done.  Seems he's trying to be Tony Gallagher's heir apparent in simpering and negativity.

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22 minutes ago, Gaudette Celly said:

Check my sig, the quote was from only a couple months ago.  I rarely listen to him, but have never heard him say anything positive or even neutral about anything Benning has done.  Seems he's trying to be Tony Gallagher's heir apparent in simpering and negativity.

JD Burke dug himself in about the JT Miller trade about it being bad.

 

Now the guy just looks like an idiot. Pretty funny actually hahaha...

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8 hours ago, Kanukfanatic said:

JD Burke dug himself in about the JT Miller trade about it being bad.

 

Now the guy just looks like an idiot. Pretty funny actually hahaha...

Come on, he looked like an idiot long before this. This just cements it! :lol:

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38 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Come on, he looked like an idiot long before this. This just cements it! :lol:

So i just read the trade post about Jt Miller... wow!!! I seen a bunch of hack media quotes on there and also the pages and pages of cdc posters and the crying over the first round pick!! Now i must say this totally cements it in place why i stay away in summer because everyone loses their mind over draft picks and trades lol. I pay attention to everything in the news but from the end of cup days to september is fishing time :)

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9 hours ago, Gaudette Celly said:

Check my sig, the quote was from only a couple months ago.  I rarely listen to him, but have never heard him say anything positive or even neutral about anything Benning has done.  Seems he's trying to be Tony Gallagher's heir apparent in simpering and negativity.

Yeah it sure is humorous!! You may be on to something about the Gallagher comparison... Pat Quinn did nothing right in his time in Van if we listened to him.

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On 3/5/2020 at 10:52 AM, Tre Mac said:

And how much we paying Beagle, Erikksson, Sutter, and Roussel?  Lol...  So we got Miller on a good deal to help offset those 4 over payments. 

That math doesn't work because what they were brought in to do was more than score points (mentor) which helps more in the long run with the exception of LE.. but usually we've had to overpay most guys over the years to play here.. 

 

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7 hours ago, iceman64 said:

That math doesn't work because what they were brought in to do was more than score points (mentor) which helps more in the long run with the exception of LE.. but usually we've had to overpay most guys over the years to play here.. 

 

That's the way it works when you sign UFAs. The only way to avoid that is to never sign any player that other teams also want.

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4 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

That's the way it works when you sign UFAs. The only way to avoid that is to never sign any player that other teams also want.

Well you know where that started right? The "win it all now" crowd who pushed sell the farm for now! Hmmm that didn't work out very well did it? At least we have a GM with some balls to say no, we actually have a farm for a change and looks like it will stay that way thankfully.. 

 Hopefully the big money name UFA's are a thing of the past.. 

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4 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Well you know where that started right? The "win it all now" crowd who pushed sell the farm for now! Hmmm that didn't work out very well did it? At least we have a GM with some balls to say no, we actually have a farm for a change and looks like it will stay that way thankfully.. 

 Hopefully the big money name UFA's are a thing of the past.. 

JB said he’s not signing anymore big dollar UFAs.  (Unless they’re ours, of course)  He said the team will have young guys coming up, who will fill the spots.  Maybe JB’s plan is to just let guys like Loui, Sutter, Baer, Beagle, Tanev, Stecher, Edler, Rooster have their contracts run their course, and then a young ELC guys takes that spot?  

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On 3/6/2020 at 6:12 PM, GoldenAlien said:

Baffled by the last couple of pages.  Does anyone think it wasn't a worthwhile trade now?  No?  So what's the problem here?  If GMJB played real hardball the third could've been a fourth?  Maybe we toss in a mid-level prospect like Brisebois instead of a pick?  Because the trade deadline has shown that you're not getting a top six power forward in their prime, on a good contract, without dealing out a first or a blue chip prospect.  So the only real variable is that third rounder.  When TSN updated its draft pick analysis in 2018, picks in the #63 - #72 range (Canucks gave up #71) had a 8.8% chance of becoming a top 6 F, top 4 D or #1 G.  Hardly the most valuable of assets.

i am baffled by this post

 

why do you defer to the narrative that jb did not play the absolute toughest hardball in engineering this trade for jt

you have no idea of the negotiation dynamics

you do not know what other teams were involved

maybe jb traded the exact bare minimum that was required to get jt

maybe if he insisted on trading anything less

jt would have gone to another team

 

i don't agree with this effort to read in any negotiating weakness by jb

it is groundless

the string of signings and trades jb has completed since acquiring pearson

has greatly improved this team

he appears to have done a very good job

 

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