Will this be the final nail to the coffin?

[48MPHSlapShot]

7 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Odd that if he rode shotgun with the superstars (Stamkos and Kucherov) that he'd be 7th in ice time per game. I suspect the truth is he played up and down the line up and bounced between the first and second PP unit based on injuries. 

 

Weird, Fox has him at 17th lowest.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/tampa-bay-lightning-team-stats?season=2018&category=ICE+TIME&time=0

 

Am I reading this wrong?

[Puckster]

here is my take:

- odds are a late first rounder scoring 50-60 points is a major win, Trading a late first round pick for a proven top 6 winger that scores 50-60 is a proven win.

- Nucks have to make playoffs next year or this team will implode :

     our young guns will be miffed

     our Russian prospects will not learn engrish( no motivation to make the move)

- JB is after a UFA defenseman (bigger the better imho)

- JB is negotiating to trade for what we need and hopefully clear sum scrugs errr.... I mean quality players with mucho potential, cough cough

I don't like to trade a first rounder, but in this case we get something we need NOW!

 

I believe that with the moves that have been made and are about to be made, Nucks will make the show next year..... then anything can happen

Goaltending is secure.

with eagle and Hughes and one more top4 D we gonna help our goalies succeed

with 2 legit top lines Brock alien miller, pearson Bo bear$&!#, hmmmm might need an upgrade there, but if healthy its okay

need a lil more grit and muscle and we be good

[Baggins]

Just now, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Weird, Fox has him at 17th lowest.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/tampa-bay-lightning-team-stats?season=2018&category=ICE+TIME&time=0

 

Am I reading this wrong?

Well I excluded d-men and sorted by the even strength ice time per game column. Pointless including d-men when using ice time to determine where a forward fits in the hierarchy. ES ice time is best for determining where the forwards typically ranks as it accounts for the bulk of his ice time.

[48MPHSlapShot]

Just now, Baggins said:

Well I excluded d-men and sorted by the even strength ice time per game column. Pointless including d-men when using ice time to determine where a forward fits in the hierarchy. ES ice time is best for determining where the forwards typically ranks as it accounts for the bulk of his ice time.

Ah, so he's 7th amongst forwards.

 

And considering the top 6 is called the top 6, that would indicate that he.....well, you get the idea xD

[Tomatoes11]

Never a fan of giving up 2nds, let  alone a first in a strong draft.

 

I personally would have held off on trading for a forward until we gave Johansson an offer. Than again, that’s risky because it could be the fluky Boston powers making him look like a beast and he could stink the bed here after we pay him like how Erikksson was great in Boston and sucked here. They have fluky powers to make a final with a 2nd line of Krejci and Johansson and debrusk.

 

That said, another Erikksson is a lot less risky than pissing away a 1st and a 3rd when our rebuild isn’t complete yet.

 

Heck, I would take Marleau and a 1st over Miller. Only risk is cap hit and if Marleau performed like how Juice Jokkinen somehow did for us, golden.

[Fanuck]

29 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Odd that if he rode shotgun with the superstars (Stamkos and Kucherov) that he'd be 7th in ice time per game among forwards. I suspect the truth is he played up and down the line up and bounced between the first and second PP unit based on injuries. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Weird, Fox has him at 17th lowest.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/tampa-bay-lightning-team-stats?season=2018&category=ICE+TIME&time=0

 

Am I reading this wrong?

According to this chart,  his linemates about 30% of the time were Cirelli/Killorn. 

However,  the rest of the time, he was mainly with Stamkos, and quite frequently with Stamkos and Kucherov together. 

 

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?select=F&forward=VAN%3A2896%3AJ.T.%3AMILLER&games=2018-2019%3AR%3A99&period=ALL&situation=EV

 

I'm not an analytics guy really,  but the chart above seems to indicate that he was used equally,  if not more,  as a top 6 guy rather than a middle/bottom 6 guy (just going off the fact that his regular winger was Stamkos - a 100% guaranteed top 6 player).  It's just when he was top 6 his linemates varied somewhat as opposed to when he wasn't a top 6 guy his linemates were always the same 2 guys. This is EV mind you and doesn't include PP where he also played with some pretty talented, elite guys.

 

Point being, you're not being buried in the lineup and stuck behind the 'talented players' (which was claimed earlier in this thread and others) if you're riding shotgun with Stamkos regularly. 

[stawns]

9 hours ago, DeNiro said:

When posters like this hate the trade, it makes me like it even more.

 

Reminds me of so many overreactions on here that ended up making posters look silly in the end.

We all remember the classics.......shink for granny and Baer for a 2nd.

 

Good times

[elvis15]

5 hours ago, PlanB said:

If I read these stats correctly Miller played the vast majority of the season with Stamkos. Their other winger was often Kucherov.   This is NOT a middle/bottom 6 line like I've heard many people say here. People are trying to make it sound like he was getting sloppy seconds for ice time and when he gets here he'll benefit from better ice time and linemates - he wasn't.   He had prime minutes and elite linemates.   Not saying he's terrible or bad trade,  just seems like it's a false narrative being promoted here that he's going to bust out with more opportunities or whatever here.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/players/j.t.-miller

Looks like he played with a number of players. Stamkos was among them, sure, but he wasn't the vast majority and certainly not a steady linemate or else they would have had closer even strength time. They might have gotten a bit of power play time though. As Baggins said, he was used with a number of players.

 

I certainly never said it was sloppy seconds, but when you're 7th on the team in even strength time per game you're generally getting middle six to bottom six minutes.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Never a fan of giving up 2nds, let  alone a first in a strong draft.

 

I personally would have held off on trading for a forward until we gave Johansson an offer. Than again, that’s risky because it could be the fluky Boston powers making him look like a beast and he could stink the bed here after we pay him like how Erikksson was great in Boston and sucked here. They have fluky powers to make a final with a 2nd line of Krejci and Johansson and debrusk.

 

That said, another Erikksson is a lot less risky than pissing away a 1st and a 3rd when our rebuild isn’t complete yet.

 

Heck, I would take Marleau and a 1st over Miller. Only risk is cap hit and if Marleau performed like how Juice Jokkinen somehow did for us, golden.

Marleau had to want to come here for that deal to work.  CAR surprised a lot of people and obviously he’s ok with that deal, they are ahead of us in the rebuild department like 6 years.    

 

Was wondering what your take on this would be given how many posts you’ve made on JB trading picks early on etc.  Overall pleasantly surprised.  Do you really mean you’d rather have another LE deal and not a utility bulldog in his early prime for four years?  Just teasing...kind of.

 

Honeslty expected more table slapping and rancor...he did just trade one of the next two years firsts right?  Poke.  Poke...poke the tomatoe...watch its juices explode.  Was expecting you to lose your mind.

[shiznak]

Not going to sugar coat this trade. For a team that is in the amidst of a rebuild, it’s a bad deal. Miller isn’t going to put us over the top, and if we don’t make the playoffs in either the next two years. That  condition pick will be in the top 12, probably in the top 10. Definitely not worth it for a player like Miller stature.

 

From a Cup contender’s POV. It’s exactly what a top 6 winger goes for in the trade market. Look at what SJ paid for Kane, Jets paid for Hayes, etc. The return for those guys is somewhat comparable.

 

So, what it really comes down to, for us to win this trade is if we start being a playoff team year-in, year-out. Whatever Miller does points wise is irrelevant. He can score 70 points for us, each of his 4 years, but if we don’t make the playoffs in any of those years, it’s a bad deal.    

[Neko]

Not a big fan of this, that is a rather expensive trade for someone that will not likely impact the team’s performance.

 

For sure if Canucks don’t make playoffs next season then Benning will get canned.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Creepy Crawler said:

Not a big fan of this, that is a rather expensive trade for someone that will not likely impact the team’s performance.

 

For sure if Canucks don’t make playoffs next season then Benning will get canned.

Why do you think JTM will not improve our team? 

[canuck_in_england]

I don't really get this cap dump argument. Personally I see a cap dump as one which is obvious to see from both sides, ie a Marleau or Eriksson. He's a 40-50 point player on a good contract for a few years and he's young enough that his stats shouldn't go through the floor. Maybe a first is too high a price or maybe not, we'll see, but this is not a cap dump type of trade.

[vannuck59]

JTM will make our top 6 better so good trade. However JB needs to work hard to get that first back. What concerns me is the lack of picks in the second round when he could have picked up anther second. And the lack of picking a Dman in the second. Clearly they thought that they got the best player but I would have went D. I guess JB figures the Canuck's D is stable . JB has a plan? so wait and see. Its not my job on the line

[48MPHSlapShot]

8 hours ago, Fanuck said:

 

According to this chart,  his linemates about 30% of the time were Cirelli/Killorn. 

However,  the rest of the time, he was mainly with Stamkos, and quite frequently with Stamkos and Kucherov together. 

 

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?select=F&forward=VAN%3A2896%3AJ.T.%3AMILLER&games=2018-2019%3AR%3A99&period=ALL&sithttp://ckstam.streamon.fm/listen-pl-18090uation=EV

 

I'm not an analytics guy really,  but the chart above seems to indicate that he was used equally,  if not more,  as a top 6 guy rather than a middle/bottom 6 guy (just going off the fact that his regular winger was Stamkos - a 100% guaranteed top 6 player).  It's just when he was top 6 his linemates varied somewhat as opposed to when he wasn't a top 6 guy his linemates were always the same 2 guys. This is EV mind you and doesn't include PP where he also played with some pretty talented, elite guys.

 

Point being, you're not being buried in the lineup and stuck behind the 'talented players' (which was claimed earlier in this thread and others) if you're riding shotgun with Stamkos regularly. 

According to that chart, it looks to me like he was more or less bounced around the lineup, spending roughly half the time in the top 6 and the rest of the time in the bottom 6. (16.18, 15.94, 4.96, 3.65 spent with Stamkos)  Considering how much he was bounced up and down the lineup, his ice time, and his deployment, it seems to me like he was a 'top six forward' in the same way that Goldobin or Virtanen were deployed as 'top six forwards'. Give him a steady spot in the top 6 where his most common linemates are Pettersson and Virtanen or Horvat and Pearson, play him 18 minutes a night as opposed to 14 or 15 minutes a night, and deploy him in the offensive zone  more often, and I see absolutely no reason why he can't an extra 10 or 15 points to his total from last season. 

[TheRussianRocket1994]

18 hours ago, kacholu said:

There is no secret JB got absolutely bent over on the TB trade today. Even the Homer fans won't be able to defend him now. 

 

Other teams are handing out assets to take on cap dumps yet our incompetent gm hands out a 3rd AND 1st for a cap dump. This his way of taking advantage of the cap. I'm about to puke just thinking about how bad this trade is. 

 

Nothing against Miller but he's a 50 pt guy on TB. Do you homers really think he will get that here in Van? 

 

Anyways, I truly hope this will be the end of JB. We have been a train wreck ever since he's been in charge. Our farm team is a joke, our trades are a joke and let's hope he's gone before it's too far. 

 

 

As I posted in the Miller trade thread...

 

I’ve been a Canucks fan since 1988. I’ve spent years & years reading this forum, but never posting on this forum. This is the first time. While I appreciate that everyone is entitled to their opinion and are entitled to criticize things this organization does, I’m extremely tired of the constant negativity / ignorance from the sports media and a large portion of the fan base. I feel like they’re looking for perfection across the organization and even if that was the case (which is impossible), the negativity / ignorance would still happen. Even the best organizations, GM’s, coaches, players etc are not perfect. There’s ups and downs and there’s wins and loses in every aspect of the organization. I hope that Miller and the team kill it next year and shove it down everyone’s throats...for Jims sake, for Travis sake, for the players sake, for the teams sake and mostly for the fans sake...especially the fans that deserve it most! There’s a huge difference between being knowledgeable (understanding) / positive feedback (criticism) and constant negativity / ignorance! Onwards and upwards!!!

[TheRussianRocket1994]

18 hours ago, kacholu said:

There is no secret JB got absolutely bent over on the TB trade today. Even the Homer fans won't be able to defend him now. 

 

Other teams are handing out assets to take on cap dumps yet our incompetent gm hands out a 3rd AND 1st for a cap dump. This his way of taking advantage of the cap. I'm about to puke just thinking about how bad this trade is. 

 

Nothing against Miller but he's a 50 pt guy on TB. Do you homers really think he will get that here in Van? 

 

Anyways, I truly hope this will be the end of JB. We have been a train wreck ever since he's been in charge. Our farm team is a joke, our trades are a joke and let's hope he's gone before it's too far. 

 

 

Education / information is your friend...

 

 

[aqua59]

18 hours ago, coastal.view said:

man the drama on here

trade a future #1 pick for a talented player

and now the sky is falling

 

i know i'm out of step with many on here

but i think the canucks will be a better team next season

I agree, lets just not trip over each other. 

[189lb enforcers?]

3 minutes ago, IRR said:

As I posted in the Miller trade thread...

 

I’ve been a Canucks fan since 1988. I’ve spent years & years reading this forum, but never posting on this forum. This is the first time. While I appreciate that everyone is entitled to their opinion and are entitled to criticize things this organization does, I’m extremely tired of the constant negativity / ignorance from the sports media and a large portion of the fan base. I feel like they’re looking for perfection across the organization and even if that was the case (which is impossible), the negativity / ignorance would still happen. Even the best organizations, GM’s, coaches, players etc are not perfect. There’s ups and downs and there’s wins and loses in every aspect of the organization. I hope that Miller and the team kill it next year and shove it down everyone’s throats...for Jims sake, for Travis sake, for the players sake, for the teams sake and mostly for the fans sake...especially the fans that deserve it most! There’s a huge difference between being knowledgeable (understanding) / positive feedback (criticism) and constant negativity / ignorance! Onwards and upwards!!!

So which fans deserve it most exactly? 

The best clappers and supporters of management??

 

Get of your soap box. 

 

You are one of many posters here who claim to be done with the ignorance and negativity printed by media and even fellow fans. So, how about you, or preferably all of, you guys go write for Sportsnet, TSN or anything resembling an sports organized outlet so that you don’t have to bother wading through the ignorance and negativity concerning the management of this team, which is what most comments seem to be about these days. 

 

How about instead of whining about this, go write a cheerleader version of what’s out here right now; write about everything positive the organization does so you can pump up the fans with your sunshine and rainbows... because, you know... “there’s a huge difference between being knowledgeable/positive than ignorance/positivity, right? 

 

Who knew? 

The missing ingredient for the success of this club, past and future, I assume, is optimistism, which is somehow directly related to and interchangeable with, knowledge. 

 

I look forward to you being the voice of hope and reason around here and elsewhere as you rid the forum, fan base and media of their ignorance. Or, you might just be another-brick-in-the-wall poster who whines about whiners.

 

I’m optimistic that this positivie feedback I’m sending you will change the way others think, thus I’m also knowledgeable. 

 

[TheRussianRocket1994]

36 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

So which fans deserve it most exactly? 

The best clappers and supporters of management??

 

Get of your soap box. 

 

You are one of many posters here who claim to be done with the ignorance and negativity printed by media and even fellow fans. So, how about you, or preferably all of, you guys go write for Sportsnet, TSN or anything resembling an sports organized outlet so that you don’t have to bother wading through the ignorance and negativity concerning the management of this team, which is what most comments seem to be about these days. 

 

How about instead of whining about this, go write a cheerleader version of what’s out here right now; write about everything positive the organization does so you can pump up the fans with your sunshine and rainbows... because, you know... “there’s a huge difference between being knowledgeable/positive than ignorance/positivity, right? 

 

Who knew? 

The missing ingredient for the success of this club, past and future, I assume, is optimistism, which is somehow directly related to and interchangeable with, knowledge. 

 

I look forward to you being the voice of hope and reason around here and elsewhere as you rid the forum, fan base and media of their ignorance. Or, you might just be another-brick-in-the-wall poster who whines about whiners.

 

I’m optimistic that this positivie feedback I’m sending you will change the way others think, thus I’m also knowledgeable. 

 

Wow...what a mature / respectable response!!!!! Your response says it all and just reinforces what I said!!! If you read / comprehended what I posted, you would have seen where I said people are entitled to their opinion / to criticize. All I was saying is the sky isn’t falling 24/7. So, I’m not on my soapbox as you put it! I don’t agree with everything they do, but I’m not negative / criticizing them at every turn. There’s a happy medium, but apparently that’s too hard for some people. I’d hate to see how they go through their day to day lives! 

 

Edit: read through this guys twitter post re: the trade and tell me the OP wasn’t a complete overreaction. He’s aloud to criticize / not like the trade, but that was the definition of the sky is falling post. 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by IRR