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Tomato Pajamas

Putting the Miller trade in context: What is Horvat worth?

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Bo is a C, who takes more faceoffs than any player in the league (53%), future captain, puts the team on his back, never complains, groomed by the Sedins, leads by example. Canucks signed him at a bargain. JT Miller is a Top 6 winger on an average team (middle 6 player on a contender).

 

I think Bo is worth quite a bit more, even though he's paid around the same.

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2 minutes ago, Tomato Pajamas said:

Would you trade Bo Horvat for a depth goaltender, a third round draft pick and a first rounder?

But context matters.

 Let me know what you think.

You said yourself that context is the reasoning here.

 

The way you put it, for our organization - it would be suicide to trade BoHo for a conditional first and a couple 'throw-ins'.  For TB however, with their unreal depth (both on the main roster and in their organization overall), and their cap situation - I think looking at it from their perspective they did really, really well in the return they received. 

 

I'm concerned about the conditional first, I'm on the record saying that - but that said, I completely understand after reflection why JB did what he did and nobody can argue that we aren't better immediately after this trade.  Miller is a legit top 6 guy who should complement the core of forwards well and his dollar/term is favorable to us right now. 

 

Time will tell though, as it always does. 

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If we can make the playoffs this year, the trade will be worth it. If the first becomes more than a top 10 then I wont be too happy with it. It's a gamble hoping we will make the playoffs in the next two years but I think it's doable . 

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You should consider the fact that Horvat played more defensive minutes and d-zone draws while still achieving top 6 production in points. Not to mention the intangibles. Also his progression trends up every season. I would value Horvat at 2 first round picks minimum with at least one of them being unprotected. And I still wouldn't make that trade unless one of them was the Jack Hughes pick.

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Put it this way, if you could get a player of Horvats caliber at that age with that contract I'd trade a first and a third plus c prospect every friggin year. 

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They look like similar type players with regards to their size and ability to forecheck.  I think Bo has another gear in him when it comes to point production.  Get him legit top 6 wingers for a year and lets see.   Miller looks like he can take another step up too if he gets minutes with our prime time guys.  Bo is the better overall player.

 

Appreciate the OP's effort to put forth good arguments.  

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My thoughts are similar to the OPs and will reserve final judgement on how Miller does here in a larger role.

 

I understand why the trade was made and we don't know who else was in on Miller and if that conditional pick was the only way we were getting him instead of another team.

 

I have read a few statistics stating similarities between Horvat and Miller and their points per 60 minutes are very similar. 

I think it's a good fit, we have to wait and see.

 

I think if we sold Horvat for anything less than a top 5 pick people would be choked, hopefully we gave them a 20th pick or worse.

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1 minute ago, BigCountry18 said:

You should consider the fact that Horvat played more defensive minutes and d-zone draws while still achieving top 6 production in points. Not to mention the intangibles. Also his progression trends up every season. I would value Horvat at 2 first round picks minimum with at least one of them being unprotected. And I still wouldn't make that trade unless one of them was the Jack Hughes pick.

Yup. Bo plays that role that is needed on a Cup winning team.  He is a Bergeron, Kopitar, ROR kind of player.  The Leafs tried playing Tavares in that role, and look how well that worked out for them, when JT matched up against Bergeron - who btw was injured.  

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bo is a swiss army knife   he is the canucks Patrice beregron  ,,  he is the next captain   bo knows Image result for Jackson Bo Knows Hockey

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I'd put Horvat above Miller. Bo is better at playing centre, better at faceoffs and is the type of 2C that teams dream of having behind a hi-end scorer at 1C. 

Miller is still great though, If he plays with Petey and Boeser he has a decent shot of hitting 60 points. He's got the size and grit to really complement that line, and has the skill to keep up with them. A 20+ goal scoring, top 6, utility winger with size is something the team has been searching for for a decade. 

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Horvat is essentially worthless.  Because he's not getting traded.  

 

 

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To answer your question, 

 

1st Rounder, 2nd Rounder, (A) level prospect. To Start.  And there would be a bidding war for Bo's services.

 

No guarantee and highly unlikely any of those picks or that prospect would touch the great two way/power forward ability of the Bull. 

 

I like to think of Bo as the new age power forward with hands and skill and speed. 

 

JT is good, he' a top 6 forward for sure, he' a centre, but he' not Bo! 

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4 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

Miller's Points per Minute played last year was 0.043. That placed him 4th on a stacked Tampa team

 

To provide further perspective, Pettersson led the Canucks with 0.051 per minute played and Boeser was 2nd with 0.042.

 

Notable players with higher cap hits than Miller but fewer Points per Minute played include:

  • Kevin Hayes
  • T.J. Oshie
  • Filip Forsberg
  • Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
  • Jeff Skinner
  • Ryan Johansen
  • Evander Kane
  • Jamie Benn

I think we might have received pretty fair value in this trade.

All while playing a solid 2 way, bottom 6 minutes, zone starts etc.

 

Fans are going to love him when they finally get to see him on Petey's wing.

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5 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

Miller's Points per Minute played last year was 0.043. That placed him 4th on a stacked Tampa team

 

To provide further perspective, Pettersson led the Canucks with 0.051 per minute played and Boeser was 2nd with 0.042.

 

Notable players with higher cap hits than Miller but fewer Points per Minute played include:

  • Kevin Hayes
  • T.J. Oshie
  • Filip Forsberg
  • Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
  • Jeff Skinner
  • Ryan Johansen
  • Evander Kane
  • Jamie Benn

I think we might have received pretty fair value in this trade.

we did. It was still expensive but we got quality back. It was painfully clear that Petey and Brocks line needed a player like this, and we really had no one to take that role on our roster. Miller-Petey-Brock is a legit NHL top line that teams will have a hard time stopping.  

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