A Fair Criticism of Jim Benning

[Dixon Ward]

Not long ago everybody was praising NYR for their incredible rebuild.  They accumulated so many draft picks and were going to build through the draft. 

 

They then go out and commit 11.6 mil to Panarin, a winger.  They also traded younger assets for Trouba who will make over 8mil in my opinion.  So they commit almost $20 and give up a 1st and Pionk to add to a very weak roster.  

 

I have not heard 1 person question this or slam the gm or suggest that they are rushing the rebuild, which has been going on for less than 2 years.  Does anyone think that NYR are a Trouba and and Panarin away from the Cup?  They are now in a cap crunch with $10mil left and Trouba still to sign with only 11 forwards and 5 defenceman signed.

 

If Jim Benning did this, there would be death threats.  It is beyond me why Panarin wanted to sign there anyway.

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, Bubble Man said:

Benning won’t trade anyone for just picks. If history repeats itself he will receive a waver eligible forward and probably send a pick the other way. I’m not trying to be a troll, that’s just what he does. 

Hate-fact of the day. 

 

Hopefully, he’s done as so many say and “has learned on the job”, so that doesn’t happen as often anymore.

 

The folly age-gap replaceathon strategy cost more than most are willing to admit.

 

The flip side of this is to always look to the positives when discussing that era, which does help if you like to play a game of mental-dress up to frame things in. To each their own. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Bubble Man said:

Benning won’t trade anyone for just picks. If history repeats itself he will receive a waver eligible forward and probably send a pick the other way. I’m not trying to be a troll, that’s just what he does. 

Not that he hasn’t tried, nobody wants our leftovers...Vanek scores 50 points and the best he could do was Motte (not bad but not a pick either, although he likelihood of the pick doing what Motte does is small, could be better too though of course which is where your coming from right?).   Beiksa and a second string goalie at least got us three picks.   Waiver eligible?  You must be talking about Vey...sure that’s not you tomatoes?   When wad the last time he traded a pick before JT Miller (below six)...I get the frustrations but why don’t we wait and see how the team does this year before the pitchforks come out.  Not intentionally trying to troll, yet it’s the same thing every post just like Tomatoes, whose mysteriously quieted down since you came on board...careful or you might be censored the same way Gaurdian eventually was.   Try and say something nice every now and then and maybe it won’t come across as trolling.

[Bubble Man]

56 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Not that he hasn’t tried, nobody wants our leftovers...Vanek scores 50 points and the best he could do was Motte (not bad but not a pick either, although he likelihood of the pick doing what Motte does is small, could be better too though of course which is where your coming from right?).   Beiksa and a second string goalie at least got us three picks.   Waiver eligible?  You must be talking about Vey...sure that’s not you tomatoes?   When wad the last time he traded a pick before JT Miller (below six)...I get the frustrations but why don’t we wait and see how the team does this year before the pitchforks come out.  Not intentionally trying to troll, yet it’s the same thing every post just like Tomatoes, whose mysteriously quieted down since you came on board...careful or you might be censored the same way Gaurdian eventually was.   Try and say something nice every now and then and maybe it won’t come across as trolling.

I say nice stuff all the time. It’s not my fault people only focus on the negative. You just proved that by having no idea I’ve said positive things about the team. Lol, look at the MacEwan thread. Hell, scroll back on this one. Jim Benning has never added a core piece by trading or FA. He drafts his core. Anyone who says Jim Benning can’t draft a better player than Tyler Motte is discrediting him and his staff. 

[Bubble Man]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Hate-fact of the day. 

 

Hopefully, he’s done as so many say and “has learned on the job”, so that doesn’t happen as often anymore.

 

The folly age-gap replaceathon strategy cost more than most are willing to admit.

 

The flip side of this is to always look to the positives when discussing that era, which does help if you like to play a game of mental-dress up to frame things in. To each their own. 

As soon as Benning trades a roster player for picks I’ll expect more of that. Until then, I’ll expect a waiver eligible player and a pick going the other way. This way, I won’t be disappointed like everyone else. Mind you, I’m sure most of the people here will just bring up the odds of a 4th round pick making the NHL and then explain to me how this waiver eligible player is way better than any player we would get from a draft pick. I know the drill. Been looking at the same response for 5 years. 

[spook007]

4 hours ago, Jester13 said:

I think this is also only something we can say in hindsight.

 

Benning had a plan in place with a timeline in mind. The veteran players he signed were expected to mentor and shelter for the duration of their terms. Then Brock came in and had a Calder year; then Petey came in and had a Calder and #1 centreman year; essentially... Poof! Rebuild timeline has sped up at least two years. The instant success of those two guys was unexpected by everyone around, so I don't fault Benning for some of his veteran signings.

 

Having said this, I would love to see JB unload Sutter, LE, maybe Tanev, etc. for picks to restock and create cap relief. He has historically been strapped by players' contracts that were not of his doing, but now it's his time to unload some guys that he's signed to their contracts, so it will be interesting to see what he can, and will, do. 

This is very true, and little has been spoken of this...

I think the fact EP took the league by storm, change the direction slightly or at least the time frame.... Unfortunately the Luongo crap slightly went against their new plan as well. 

 

No doubt they will hope Gaudette can step it up so they can let go of Sutter. LE will be a hard nut to crack, but hopefully Benning finds a way to get out of that hole... Maybe Panthers feel they need to help JB out after screwing us over with the Luongo case and takes LE for a modest sweetener....(yeah I know it won't happen, but one could hope...).

[Baggins]

19 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

I say nice stuff all the time. It’s not my fault people only focus on the negative. You just proved that by having no idea I’ve said positive things about the team. Lol, look at the MacEwan thread. Hell, scroll back on this one. Jim Benning has never added a core piece by trading or FA. He drafts his core. Anyone who says Jim Benning can’t draft a better player than Tyler Motte is discrediting him and his staff. 

He drafted Cassels.

[oldnews]

8 hours ago, Bubble Man said:

Nope, actually didn’t even know he was banned. 

not sure he was banned - didn't consider him a 'troll'.

were you?

[RonMexico]

12 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

As soon as Benning trades a roster player for picks I’ll expect more of that. Until then, I’ll expect a waiver eligible player and a pick going the other way. This way, I won’t be disappointed like everyone else. Mind you, I’m sure most of the people here will just bring up the odds of a 4th round pick making the NHL and then explain to me how this waiver eligible player is way better than any player we would get from a draft pick. I know the drill. Been looking at the same response for 5 years. 

 

What good would that kind of trade do for the team now though? This team has moved past the accumulation phase even if it didn't accumulate enough for the traditional rebuild fans. It's a fair argument but it's not the only way to build a team. I am not saying they did it the 'right way' either. They just picked a way. Personally I don't care how you get from A to B, as long as you get there. This team is going in a positive direction. I'm not interested in abandoning the plan and starting over but if that's what ends up happening in the near future, my allegiance to the Canuck flag will not change.

[Bubble Man]

2 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

 

What good would that kind of trade do for the team now though? This team has moved past the accumulation phase even if it didn't accumulate enough for the traditional rebuild fans. It's a fair argument but it's not the only way to build a team. I am not saying they did it the 'right way' either. They just picked a way. Personally I don't care how you get from A to B, as long as you get there. This team is going in a positive direction. I'm not interested in abandoning the plan and starting over but if that's what ends up happening in the near future, my allegiance to the Canuck flag will not change.

I’m not apposed to building through trades at all. If you can make great trades, why not? Tampa just got a 1st and 3rd for TJ Miller. They are done rebuilding.

Our new generation of franchise players are all drafted. We should never stop building this team Through the draft. That’s our management groups advantage over all the other teams we are competing against. 

[Bubble Man]

20 minutes ago, oldnews said:

not sure he was banned - didn't consider him a 'troll'.

were you?

Banned? Dupe accounts are prohibited. I don’t break the rules. 

[oldnews]

4 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

 Tampa just got a 1st and 3rd for TJ Miller. They are done rebuilding.

[Nucker 67]

2 hours ago, Dixon Ward said:

If Jim Benning did this, there would be death threats.  It is beyond me why Panarin wanted to sign there anyway.

Agreed. TSN and those sports shows are no different than Entertainment Tonight. Just fluff. They wouldn't criticise the Panarin signing, because Panarin was very sought after, so they feel the Rangers won, somehow. They don't talk about the reality of it, because that would be depressing fo the Original Six team. IMO, I think Panarin wanted to go to the bright lights of Broadway, to become a star - and still be unimportant enough to have a private life. lol Besides, look at how much he's being paid.

 

The medai can spin hype tales all they want, the proof will be in the standings at the end of the year. 

 

 

 

 

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, Dixon Ward said:

Not long ago everybody was praising NYR for their incredible rebuild.  They accumulated so many draft picks and were going to build through the draft. 

 

They then go out and commit 11.6 mil to Panarin, a winger.  They also traded younger assets for Trouba who will make over 8mil in my opinion.  So they commit almost $20 and give up a 1st and Pionk to add to a very weak roster.  

 

I have not heard 1 person question this or slam the gm or suggest that they are rushing the rebuild, which has been going on for less than 2 years.  Does anyone think that NYR are a Trouba and and Panarin away from the Cup?  They are now in a cap crunch with $10mil left and Trouba still to sign with only 11 forwards and 5 defenceman signed.

 

If Jim Benning did this, there would be death threats.  It is beyond me why Panarin wanted to sign there anyway.

I hear you - but it's also a business.

And the Rangers are a massive market - that they want/need/intend to ignite with the hype of adding these players.

I agree - their roster is still filled with holes - they have a few key pieces expiring that they will want/ need to retain (particularly Kreider, who I would be aggressively pursuing in free agency but that's beside the point).

The Rags also have over 12 million into Shattenkirk and Staal for a few more years - another obstacle to a quick fix rething - but some people imo have extremely simplistic concepts of what teams 'should do / #proper-rebuild.....

A team like the Rags may not be ready to contend - but that absolutely does not preclude them from attempting to improve their team at every step - in forms that may not make sense in the present to the tank/stockpile tha picks crowd.   Adding Panarin and Trouba = hard to argue that that does not improve their team and put them a few steps closer to competing in due course.   Panarin may be looking a year or two into the future with his interest there - and certainly he may be wooed by the lights and the contract.

Would those opportunities exist a couple years in the future when they may be more 'ready'?  Who knows - they took care of that up front - and it isn't necessarily as counter-intuitive as it seems.  And beyond the team-building aspect, again, it's also a business, where owners want to generate interest, hope and repay their fanbase for remaining engaged, while looking to improve their shorter term bottom line in the process.

Edited July 8, 2019 by oldnews

[BlastPast]

2 hours ago, Dixon Ward said:

Not long ago everybody was praising NYR for their incredible rebuild.  They accumulated so many draft picks and were going to build through the draft. 

 

They then go out and commit 11.6 mil to Panarin, a winger.  They also traded younger assets for Trouba who will make over 8mil in my opinion.  So they commit almost $20 and give up a 1st and Pionk to add to a very weak roster.  

 

I have not heard 1 person question this or slam the gm or suggest that they are rushing the rebuild, which has been going on for less than 2 years.  Does anyone think that NYR are a Trouba and and Panarin away from the Cup?  They are now in a cap crunch with $10mil left and Trouba still to sign with only 11 forwards and 5 defenceman signed.

 

If Jim Benning did this, there would be death threats.  It is beyond me why Panarin wanted to sign there anyway.

Don't forget about some of the cap inefficiencies they've got going on . Marc Staal for 5.7 anyone ?  How about Brendan smith at 4.35.  A vacant spot where Girardi was for 3.9 ??  Any takers ?

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, BlastPast said:

Don't forget about some of the cap inefficiencies they've got going on . Marc Staal for 5.7 anyone ?  How about Brendan smith at 4.35.  A vacant spot where Girardi was for 3.9 ??  Any takers ?

Yeah.

Benning sucks - because he signed a top end 4th line center to 3 million.....

 

But the Rags - with a 4.35 million fourth line defense conversion winger - are geniuses. 

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, The 5th Line said:

So people are supposed to trash NYR because they fleeced Winnipeg for Trouba?  

That straw-framing on your part - ignoring the point they were making.

 

But also - you don't know that.   That deal is only just beginning to breathe.

Not every deal turns out as it appears at the time.

[Josepho]

I would have absolutely no problem with Benning aggressively pursuing the market and going for players just like Gorton did. More GMs need to find good established NHL players to insulate their young players. The whole point of a rebuild is to find 1/2 really good players with high picks and they've done that with Kakko. There's zero point in tanking with a player that good on his ELC.

 

It's fine to make transactions like that when they come at incredible value. The problem the Canucks have had is that they've been constantly been bad with the timing, pricing and players they're targeting.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Josepho

[alt kilgore]

You can't prove a negative, or in this case a positive.  So we'll never know how much better a position we would be in if JB had started the rebuild in earnest years earlier.  I think we'd be ahead, but I can't prove that.  Perhaps making the playoffs in 2015 could be argued as an excuse for thinking we had more than we did. I give Jim a mulligan on holding fast into 2016. As someone mentioned in the thread, the charges of him being saddled with inferior untradable players, ....well Jim thought, with the Aquilini's prodding, that these were a good enough base of backup players to go for it again. It wasn't so much that he couldn't trade or deal for picks, its that he didn't try.

 

When they failed to make the playoffs in 2016, that should have been the final straw and we should have been not shy of the word rebuild, but be shouting it from the streets. Much like NYR did. It was a lost opportunity. The fans in the city were knowledgeable and prepared for a years long rebuild. But the owner was not. JB should have, after the 2016 season, gone to the Sedins, Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Edler, Hamhuis, (probably missing some) and told them in no uncertain terms that a ground up rebuild is what they were going to do.  And they could waive their no trade, no move, and Jim could look to move them to contending teams, or they could stay but under the knowledge that there would be no long term major signings  (Eriksson, Gagner, ...)  No trading picks for help.  They would have to live or die with bringing up more youth and only minor trades to fill positions and make improvements when they could. At least for the first couple of seasons.

 

I have a hard time swallowing the perpetual excuse of "look what Gillis left him to work with!"  This is 5 years in now.  How long does that excuse hold water?  Don't ask me how he could have handled the roster, and prospects that Gillis had left him, that's HIS job. Other GMs find creative ways.  He never once considered weaponizing the cap. I think he even stated that in an interview. That's why he gets paid the big bucks. But I don't even think its because he couldn't, its because he didn't even try, at the behest of the owner.

 

I realize that hindsight is 20/20.  Eriksson may have been the missing link. The heir apparent to Burrows on the Sedin line. Gagner, Vey, Gudbranson, Vrbata, (probably missing some) all might have played above expectations rather than below. Although I still doubt that crew, even at their best, was a Cup winning roster.  But the reality is that, yes, we have a few good prospects. What about that second tier coming in to back up the current rookies? There are some promising prospects but is it enough? Its too late now to start a traditional rebuild. We'd miss out on a lot of our new crop of rookies potentials, as well as wasting Bo's best years. So its full steam ahead now. Done with the rebuild. In Jim we (now must) trust.  Even though in my gut I have a hard time thinking our present team's makeup can win the Cup now.  Must....Not......Be.....Negative......  I'm trying.  I want to believe.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

4 hours ago, Baggins said:

He drafted Cassels.

#wrongagain