vannuck59 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 While I disagree on JB,s earlier picks I think we are on track picking up more draft picks should be his focus for the next two years we need growth in prospects to allow the transition of the core . Trades to get an first pick back at the dead line and to add more seconds,. Its going to take 3 years to transition this team to be playoff regulars. The faces of this team will change and todays Vets will be gone. Defense should be Jim's focus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 10 minutes ago, Bubble Man said: This is why teams load up on picks. Its still premature to nail down a success rate of JBs drafting. If we look at who we still have in the system and who is still a potential asset, our success rate is profound. Let’s include the late 1st round because everyone is downplaying the significance of a late 1st. Due to TJ Miller narrative. 2014 McCann - full time NHL -core Demko - Has Vez potential - Core Tree - NHL Bottom pair Forsling - NHL Bottom pair 2015 Boeser - Core Brisebois - NHL Bottom Pair Gaudette - NHL 3rd Line C - core 2016 Lockwood - NHL 4th line * note, this is the year he really threw away a lot of picks 2017 Lind - NHL top 9 Forward Gadjovich - NHL 4th line DiPietro - NHL Solid 1B or tandem Goalie Rathbone - NHL Depth Palmu - NHL 4th line/ Depth 2018 Woo - NHL top 4 - potentially core Madden - NHL 3rd Line C potentially core Do not underestimate this teams amateur scouting bro. I will put this up against any other teams late round success in the same time period. Imagine if we kept those 2nds. Imagine if he loaded up on picks. Imagine if he kept those picks in 2016. Our 2-5th round draft picks are worth (to our team) more than anything else we have It’s how we are built. Define core. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyman109 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) deleted Edited July 10, 2019 by mikeyman109 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Bubble Man said: This is why teams load up on picks. Its still premature to nail down a success rate of JBs drafting. If we look at who we still have in the system and who is still a potential asset, our success rate is profound. Let’s include the late 1st round because everyone is downplaying the significance of a late 1st. Due to TJ Miller narrative. 2014 McCann - full time NHL -core Demko - Has Vez potential - Core Tree - NHL Bottom pair Forsling - NHL Bottom pair 2015 Boeser - Core Brisebois - NHL Bottom Pair Gaudette - NHL 3rd Line C - core 2016 Lockwood - NHL bottom Pair * note, this is the year he really threw away a lot of picks 2017 Lind - NHL top 9 Forward Gadjovich - NHL 4th line DiPietro - NHL Solid 1B or tandem Goalie Rathbone - NHL Depth Palmu - NHL 4th line/ Depth 2018 Woo - NHL top 4 - potentially core Madden - NHL 3rd Line C potentially core Do not underestimate this teams amateur scouting bro. I will put this up against any other teams late round success in the same time period. Imagine if we kept those 2nds. Imagine if he loaded up on picks. Imagine if he kept those picks in 2016. Our 2-5th round draft picks are worth (to our team) more than anything else we have It’s how we are built. I agree that it’s way too early to predict who might be an NHL player past the third round under Bennings last four drafts...his first two are basically locked in. At this point two are Tree and AG. I think your being a little optimistic on quite a few of these guys making it and definitely where they might end up. Some of these guys are second rounders too, which weren’t included in the point I was trying to make. I definitely think he will buck the trend of the previous few GMs, in not hitting on many at all. But I don’t expect we will see more then a handful of guys, and most of them will be third rounders. Madden, Tree and AG are locks IMO, MD has a decent chance of making it, 200 games though? Hard to say. yes to Woo and Lind (second rounders). JG looks like a career AHLer at best so far (can’t push guys around so easy, his size is not longer a factor, although his skating is improving) ... Brisbois might get the third role but looks to be a first call-up depth option, doubt he will play 200 games but hope I’m wrong. Statistically Benning is only a above average drafter, plus four based on ADP. TB is plus 22, by far the best drafter in the league based on average draft position the last five years. EDM is DFL, -27 based on ADP the past five years. Definitely agree it’s too early for the last three or even four drafts to really know what we’ve got. In the end a GM expects one NHLer per draft and hopes for two. More then that is huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Man Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, IBatch said: I agree that it’s way too early to predict who might be an NHL player past the third round under Bennings last four drafts...his first two are basically locked in. At this point two are Tree and AG. I think your being a little optimistic on quite a few of these guys making it and definitely where they might end up. Some of these guys are second rounders too, which weren’t included in the point I was trying to make. I definitely think he will buck the trend of the previous few GMs, in not hitting on many at all. But I don’t expect we will see more then a handful of guys, and most of them will be third rounders. Madden, Tree and AG are locks IMO, MD has a decent chance of making it, 200 games though? Hard to say. yes to Woo and Lind (second rounders). JG looks like a career AHLer at best so far (can’t push guys around so easy, his size is not longer a factor, although his skating is improving) ... Brisbois might get the third role but looks to be a first call-up depth option, doubt he will play 200 games but hope I’m wrong. Statistically Benning is only a above average drafter, plus four based on ADP. TB is plus 22, by far the best drafter in the league based on average draft position the last five years. EDM is DFL, -27 based on ADP the past five years. Definitely agree it’s too early for the last three or even four drafts to really know what we’ve got. In the end a GM expects one NHLer per draft and hopes for two. More then that is huge. You miss understood what I said. These are the potential ceilings of these players. These are the players he pulled out of the post top 15 who are still assets. Who are still worth 1 of the 50 contracts. I find it so odd how you can be a huge Benning supporter and downplay his biggest strength, while simultaneously downplaying his biggest weakness. 5 years is required to judge a draft. 2014 is in the books. The rest are still very much undetermined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vannuck59 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 I think JB is in the College sign mod meaning all our next D prospects are going to come from that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Man Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, Alflives said: Define core. A core piece is a player who exceeds the league average contract in cap/term. Anything under the league average is depth/replaceable complementary pieces. I’m high on Gaudette. McCann is a top 6 forward in Pittsburgh who will probably sign an above league average contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vannuck59 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Gaudette will have to make a bigger statement this year and show he can drive play and scoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Man Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, vannuck59 said: Gaudette will have to make a bigger statement this year and show he can drive play and scoring Hard to prove when you’re stuck behind foundational Sutter. He has exceeded all expectations at every level, hard to have reason he can’t do the same in the NHL given the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, Bubble Man said: This is why teams load up on picks. Its still premature to nail down a success rate of JBs drafting. If we look at who we still have in the system and who is still a potential asset, our success rate is profound. Let’s include the late 1st round because everyone is downplaying the significance of a late 1st. Due to TJ Miller narrative. 2014 McCann - full time NHL -core Demko - Has Vez potential - Core Tree - NHL Bottom pair Forsling - NHL Bottom pair 2015 Boeser - Core Brisebois - NHL Bottom Pair Gaudette - NHL 3rd Line C - core 2016 Lockwood - NHL bottom Pair * note, this is the year he really threw away a lot of picks 2017 Lind - NHL top 9 Forward Gadjovich - NHL 4th line DiPietro - NHL Solid 1B or tandem Goalie Rathbone - NHL Depth Palmu - NHL 4th line/ Depth 2018 Woo - NHL top 4 - potentially core Madden - NHL 3rd Line C potentially core Do not underestimate this teams amateur scouting bro. I will put this up against any other teams late round success in the same time period. Imagine if we kept those 2nds. Imagine if he loaded up on picks. Imagine if he kept those picks in 2016. Our 2-5th round draft picks are worth (to our team) more than anything else we have It’s how we are built. Not sure how you can use "success rate" and "potential" in the same sentence and conclude "profound". Either they are a success or they have potential of success. For example, Shinkaruk would have been on your list of "profound success" and have "core" after his name back in 2014 as many had him as our future 1st line LW. It certainly didn't play out that way. Not sure how you could put "core" after McCann's name five years after being drafted. Do "core players" get traded twice before they're 23? I honestly don't know how you can declare anybody a "profound success" or "core" without them actually achieving it first. Horvat, Petie and Boeser are certainly profound successes and core as they have already achieved that status. It's great to be optimistic, or excited, about our prospects but even calling Gaudette core at this point is nothing but speculation. He certainly hasn't established it. He has the potential but he also has the potential to be an average 3rd liner at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bubble Man said: Hard to prove when you’re stuck behind foundational Sutter. He has exceeded all expectations at every level, hard to have reason he can’t do the same in the NHL given the opportunity. Sutter only played 26 games last season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Man Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 14 minutes ago, Baggins said: Not sure how you can use "success rate" and "potential" in the same sentence and conclude "profound". Either they are a success or they have potential of success. For example, Shinkaruk would have been on your list of "profound success" and have "core" after his name back in 2014 as many had him as our future 1st line LW. It certainly didn't play out that way. Not sure how you could put "core" after McCann's name five years after being drafted. Do "core players" get traded twice before they're 23? I honestly don't know how you can declare anybody a "profound success" or "core" without them actually achieving it first. Horvat, Petie and Boeser are certainly profound successes and core as they have already achieved that status. It's great to be optimistic, or excited, about our prospects but even calling Gaudette core at this point is nothing but speculation. He certainly hasn't established it. He has the potential but he also has the potential to be an average 3rd liner at this point. If you need to dissect the way I’m trying to articulate a point to support your narrative then great. If these players didn’t have the potential they wouldn’t bother spending the time and money developing them. 2014 alone provided more potential then the entire Gillis era post top 15. I’m not here to argue McCann, he is vital to Pittsburgh right now. Who are we to judge his path to a top 6 player. If 25% of those players make their ceiling it’s still a better success rate then his ability to obtain core pieces through trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, Bubble Man said: If you need to dissect the way I’m trying to articulate a point to support your narrative then great. If these players didn’t have the potential they wouldn’t bother spending the time and money developing them. 2014 alone provided more potential then the entire Gillis era post top 15. I’m not here to argue McCann, he is vital to Pittsburgh right now. Who are we to judge his path to a top 6 player. If 25% of those players make their ceiling it’s still a better success rate then his ability to obtain core pieces through trade. If they didn't have potential they wouldn't have been selected in the first place. Potential doesn't equal success let alone profound success. Nor does it mean core player, a label that tends to get tossed around pretty freely and prematurely around here. Like I said, it's great to be optimistic, but you can'ty draw conclussions like ":profound success rate" based on optimism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Man Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Baggins said: If they didn't have potential they wouldn't have been selected in the first place. Potential doesn't equal success let alone profound success. Nor does it mean core player, a label that tends to get tossed around pretty freely and prematurely around here. Like I said, it's great to be optimistic, but you can'ty draw conclussions like ":profound success rate" based on optimism. It takes 5 years to judge a draft. I clearly stated this. IMO, Demko, Tree, McCann, Forsling after the top 15 is profound success. It’s holy f success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Just now, Bubble Man said: It takes 5 years to judge a draft. I clearly stated this. IMO, Demko, Tree, McCann, Forsling after the top 15 is profound success. It’s holy f success. Well aren't you setting the bar low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Man Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Baggins said: Well aren't you setting the bar low. What’s even crazier is by 2022, the 2017 draft might be even better than 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItTakesAnArmy Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, Bubble Man said: It takes 5 years to judge a draft. I clearly stated this. IMO, Demko, Tree, McCann, Forsling after the top 15 is profound success. It’s holy f success. Maybe a draft class, drafted players are quicker. I am critical of Benning but even i have posted that the 2014 draft was one of the best in Canuck history, BUT he had the benefit of TWO team's scouting reports, of course the other thing to critique is that only two of those players are on the Canucks now. 19 minutes ago, Baggins said: If they didn't have potential they wouldn't have been selected in the first place. Potential doesn't equal success let alone profound success. Nor does it mean core player, a label that tends to get tossed around pretty freely and prematurely around here. Like I said, it's great to be optimistic, but you can'ty draw conclussions like ":profound success rate" based on optimism. A prospect is NOT a NHL player, they are a hope and a dream until they play. Benning has had all these years to FILL the pool, why is the pool now rated lower than the Rangers, Canadiens and a lot of other teams? Those are playoff teams. How is ti their pools are suddenly better? Prospects have never won a cup without playing a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 13 hours ago, IBatch said: I really think that like it or not, Benning has locked in his core and has pushed things forward. Also think that how well we do will depend on how well the guys that are just starting to play and will soon be arriving in Utica do over the next two years and which ones turn out good enough to play a decent-good role in the NHL as support players for the core. CHI had Kane, Toews, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith, Crawford and Sharp as their main guys. That’s seven players. Plus a young Byfuglien as a forward and a medley of support players over the years. We have Boeser, EP, Horvat, Hughes, Podz and Demko. Plus a few hopefuls in OJ, JV plus plus...Madden, Woo etc. Hard to say if it’s enough but it is a good start. I agree. Hard to say if it's enough but the potential for success around the core is lining up really well. We're finally at a point where we can see that medley of support behind Horvat, Petey, Boeser, Hughes, and Demko. The way it's shaping up, Gaudette will likely a versatile anchor in the lineup. I'm hoping JV can also be that. These two will be able to play anywhere as the support arrives. The numbers are starting to turn into our favor with who we potentially have coming - OJ, Tryamkin, Madden, Woo, Podz, DiPietro, Hoglander, Lockwood, and Keppen. I'm still hopeful for Jasek and Lind, both 6'1 and can still fill out and get bigger. I also agree with what you said about how well guys do on the farm. Benning really needs to pay more attention to Utica and make sure they have the right foundation for success down there. We can't afford guys to simply fall through the cracks. I kind of feel they created a backlog down there and to some degree didn't really know what to do with the amount of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Bubble Man said: A core piece is a player who exceeds the league average contract in cap/term. Anything under the league average is depth/replaceable complementary pieces. I’m high on Gaudette. McCann is a top 6 forward in Pittsburgh who will probably sign an above league average contract. Core to me is: goalie: Demko scoring centre: Petey two way center: Bo scoring winger: Bess pwf winger: Miller elite d man: Hughes iys JB’s job to build the core and put the best support pieces in place. If Gaudette can be like Bo, the JB needs to move one of them to upgrade at another core spot. I’d say at power forward. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Man Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 25 minutes ago, Alflives said: Core to me is: goalie: Demko scoring centre: Petey two way center: Bo scoring winger: Bess pwf winger: Miller elite d man: Hughes iys JB’s job to build the core and put the best support pieces in place. If Gaudette can be like Bo, the JB needs to move one of them to upgrade at another core spot. I’d say at power forward. You are calling Miller a core power forward? Name the price and I’ll throw it on the table if you can prove to me you have ever knowingly watched Miller play. And no, Jim Benning should not trade any players to strengthen other areas because he can’t win a trade to save his life. Almost every trade he has made has been detrimental thus far, why would this trend suddenly change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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