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A Fair Criticism of Jim Benning

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Just now, Bubble Man said:

It takes 5 years to judge a draft. I clearly stated this. IMO, Demko, Tree, McCann, Forsling after the top 15 is profound success. It’s holy f success. 

Well aren't you setting the bar low. :lol:

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2 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Well aren't you setting the bar low. :lol:

What’s even crazier is by 2022, the 2017 draft might be even better than 2014. 

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11 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

It takes 5 years to judge a draft. I clearly stated this. IMO, Demko, Tree, McCann, Forsling after the top 15 is profound success. It’s holy f success. 

Maybe a draft class, drafted players are quicker.

I am critical of Benning but even i have posted that the 2014 draft was one of the best in Canuck history, BUT he had the benefit of TWO team's scouting reports, of course the other thing to critique is that only two of those players are on the Canucks now.

19 minutes ago, Baggins said:

If they didn't have potential they wouldn't have been selected in the first place. Potential doesn't equal success let alone profound success. Nor does it mean core player, a label that tends to get tossed around pretty freely and prematurely around here. Like I said, it's great to be optimistic, but you can'ty draw conclussions like ":profound success rate" based on optimism.

A prospect is NOT a NHL player, they are a hope and a dream until they play.

Benning has had all these years to FILL the pool, why is the pool now rated lower than the Rangers, Canadiens and a lot of other teams? Those are playoff teams. How is ti their pools are suddenly better?

Prospects have never won a cup without playing a game.

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13 hours ago, IBatch said:

I really think that like it or not, Benning has locked in his core and has pushed things forward.   Also think that how well we do will depend on how well the guys that are just starting to play and will soon be arriving in Utica do over the next two years and which ones turn out good enough to play a decent-good role in the NHL as support players for the core.  CHI had Kane, Toews, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith, Crawford and Sharp as their main guys.  That’s seven players.  Plus a young Byfuglien as a forward and a medley of support players over the years.   We have Boeser, EP, Horvat, Hughes, Podz and Demko.  Plus a few hopefuls in OJ, JV plus plus...Madden, Woo etc.  Hard to say if it’s enough but it is a good start. 

I agree. Hard to say if it's enough but the potential for success around the core is lining up really well. We're finally at a point where we can see that medley of support behind Horvat, Petey, Boeser, Hughes, and Demko. 

 

The way it's shaping up, Gaudette will likely a versatile anchor in the lineup. I'm hoping JV can also be that. These two will be able to play anywhere as the support arrives.

 

The numbers are starting to turn into our favor with who we potentially have coming - OJ, Tryamkin, Madden, Woo, Podz, DiPietro, Hoglander, Lockwood, and Keppen. I'm still hopeful for Jasek and Lind, both 6'1 and can still fill out and get bigger.

 

I also agree with what you said about how well guys do on the farm. Benning really needs to pay more attention to Utica and make sure they have the right foundation for success down there. We can't afford guys to simply fall through the cracks. I kind of feel they created a backlog down there and to some degree didn't really know what to do with the amount of players. 

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2 hours ago, Bubble Man said:

A core piece is a player who exceeds the league average contract in cap/term. Anything under the league average is depth/replaceable complementary pieces. I’m high on Gaudette. McCann is  a top 6 forward in Pittsburgh who will probably sign an above league average contract. 

Core to me is:

goalie: Demko

scoring centre: Petey

two way center: Bo

scoring winger: Bess

pwf winger: Miller

elite d man: Hughes

 

iys JB’s job to build the core and put the best support pieces in place. 

 

If Gaudette can be like Bo, the JB needs to move one of them to upgrade at another core spot.  I’d say at power forward. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Core to me is:

goalie: Demko

scoring centre: Petey

two way center: Bo

scoring winger: Bess

pwf winger: Miller

elite d man: Hughes

 

iys JB’s job to build the core and put the best support pieces in place. 

 

If Gaudette can be like Bo, the JB needs to move one of them to upgrade at another core spot.  I’d say at power forward. 

 

You are calling Miller a core power forward? Name the price and I’ll throw it on the table if you can prove to me you have ever knowingly watched Miller play. And no, Jim Benning should not trade any players to strengthen other areas because he can’t win a trade to save his life. Almost every trade he has made has been detrimental thus far, why would this trend suddenly change? 

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2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Not sure how you can use "success rate" and "potential" in the same sentence and conclude "profound". Either they are a success or they have potential of success. For example, Shinkaruk would have been on your list of "profound success" and have "core" after his name back in 2014 as many had him as our future 1st line LW. It certainly didn't play out that way. Not sure how you could put "core" after McCann's name five years after being drafted. Do "core players" get traded twice before they're 23? I honestly don't know how you can declare anybody a "profound success" or "core" without them actually achieving it first. Horvat, Petie and Boeser are certainly profound successes and core as they have already achieved that status.

 

It's great to be optimistic, or excited, about our prospects but even calling Gaudette core at this point is nothing but speculation. He certainly hasn't established it. He has the potential but he also has the potential to be an average 3rd liner at this point. 

I suppose it all depends on the definition of core.   One could argue that both Torres and Malholtra and even Coho at the time were core support players during the peak Sedin years.   

 

I’d 100% agree to that definition.   Hansen too.  Those are the guys that our team needs to draft to succeed.  For one they are cheaper then UFA vets that Benning really had no other choice but sign under the “re-tool” and gap phase.  EP and Boeser accelerated the rebuild by one or two years, BUT we still have to wait for the later round high end prospects to make it.  Madden, Woo, Lind etc could help fill those roles for sure, same with AG.   

 

Personally I think those guys are just as important as having the high end guys when it comes to becoming an actual contender.   At this point JV is filling one of those roles as a support player, one that hopefully will get better in his prime too.  Not what you’re hoping for from a first rounder, but it’s better then a miss and definitely fills the support role.  

 

McCaan isn’t a top player, he might become one (doubt it), playing with Crosby makes anyone look good and he played with a bunch of chumps other then Geuntzal...

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17 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

You are calling Miller a core power forward? Name the price and I’ll throw it on the table if you can prove to me you have ever knowingly watched Miller play. And no, Jim Benning should not trade any players to strengthen other areas because he can’t win a trade to save his life. Almost every trade he has made has been detrimental thus far, why would this trend suddenly change? 

Miller is not a great core piece.  Those are the pieces I see as core to a team.  Miller is the best we have for that spot.  

 

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15 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

A prospect is NOT a NHL player, they are a hope and a dream until they play.

Isn't that exactly what I was saying? 

 

17 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Maybe a draft class, drafted players are quicker.I am critical of Benning but even i have posted that the 2014 draft was one of the best in Canuck history, BUT he had the benefit of TWO team's scouting reports, of course the other thing to critique is that only two of those players are on the Canucks now.

Did he actually have two actual lists? Teams don't typically draw up their actual ranking list until after the playoffs, along with the combine and interviews. That's when all the scouts get together with management to combine the prospects from the various leagues they play in to make their list. Benning was gone from Boston before that happened. He may well have had a pretty good idea of who their scouts from the various leagues were high on but not much beyond that. I wouldn't put much weight on that theory.

 

22 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Benning has had all these years to FILL the pool, why is the pool now rated lower than the Rangers, Canadiens and a lot of other teams? Those are playoff teams. How is ti their pools are suddenly better?

According to who? The last list I saw we were ranked #3. Btw, Both the Rangers and Habs missed the playoffs last season. So are you predicting them to be playoff teams next year? If so, we may well be a playoff team next year as well.

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I suppose it all depends on the definition of core.   One could argue that both Torres and Malholtra and even Coho at the time were core support players during the peak Sedin years.   

 

I’d 100% agree to that definition.   Hansen too.  Those are the guys that our team needs to draft to succeed.  For one they are cheaper then UFA vets that Benning really had no other choice but sign under the “re-tool” and gap phase.  EP and Boeser accelerated the rebuild by one or two years, BUT we still have to wait for the later round high end prospects to make it.  Madden, Woo, Lind etc could help fill those roles for sure, same with AG.   

 

Personally I think those guys are just as important as having the high end guys when it comes to becoming an actual contender.   At this point JV is filling one of those roles as a support player, one that hopefully will get better in his prime too.  Not what you’re hoping for from a first rounder, but it’s better then a miss and definitely fills the support role.  

 

McCaan isn’t a top player, he might become one (doubt it), playing with Crosby makes anyone look good and he played with a bunch of chumps other then Geuntzal...

The way I see it coire players are the guys essnetial to success that are unlikely to be moved for years. And yes they can be quality secondary players like Hansen. But I wouldn't say Hodgson established himself as a core player here. A pretty decent prospect, but calling him part of the core is essentially saying if you're on the roster you're a core player. Imo you have to establish yourself over time for that designation unless you're among the elite players.

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A fair criticism of Jim is quite easy.  Great at evaluating young talent and drafting that talent.  Mediocre at trades and average at free agent signings.  As mentioned in the Ferland thread, he nailed it this off season.  Also mentioned previously is how Benning found his stride once Linden left.  I think there is a correlation between the 2.  I hope we give Jim more time to build this team and Aquilini extends his contract.  He's done a decent job rebuilding our team. 

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A core player is one that due to the rarity of their elite talent you sign long term and build the rest of the team around because they are both critical for team success and effectively irreplaceable. But it is usually identified with your best two or three players, sometimes four. For example, we would talk about the Sedin era which peaked in 2011, or maybe the Sedin/Luongo era, not the Burrows/Salo era, even if they were super useful, high value players. The core is actually most easily identifiable in retrospect, and usually associated with an era of success. We don’t talk much about the Sedin/Miller era, although it lasted three years. 

 

The core of the post-Sedin Canucks during the current era is still being clarified to some degree, but early indications seem to suggest it will include Horvat and Pettersson, with Boeser perhaps being a likely third part. If Hughes is a top pairing guy, maybe he will be included too but it’s too early to be sure. It’s still quite early and flexible. If we had traded Boeser for Werenski or something, it may well be that the new player would be part of the more notable core. Such a trade may happen sooner or later, particularly if it takes a while for the Canucks window to open. If that were the case maybe Horvat even is moved out before the team really hits it stride. 

 

Ferland signing is interesting by the way. It looks like Benning has taken a shot at squeezing value out of the slowing UFA market. I’m looking at Boeser getting a short term “show me” deal on a lower cap possibly, or maybe the comparable players signing in San Jose will drive his price down so that he does a 6x6. Interesting days remain this summer. 

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Bennings career in Vancouver has been extended ... for now.  I wonder why he didn't make these moves sooner.

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Just now, aqua59 said:

Bennings career in Vancouver has been extended ... for now.  I wonder why he didn't make these moves sooner.

How could he?  Myers and Ferland only became a UFAs this year.  Plus, we didn’t know just how great Petey and Hughes were going to be.  

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1 minute ago, aqua59 said:

Bennings career in Vancouver has been extended ... for now.  I wonder why he didn't make these moves sooner.

They probably weren't available. Opportunity is key and never something you have total control of in my opinion. ;)

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43 minutes ago, aqua59 said:

Bennings career in Vancouver has been extended ... for now.  I wonder why he didn't make these moves sooner.

His moves still baffle me to some degree. I’m not opposed to Ferland, his price or his term. I worry that both he and Myers are overrated, with stats boosted by playing alongside strong supporting casts and with underlying analytics are not great, but I do think this is a good time to spend as much money as possible and accumulate assets. These contracts will seem relatively inexpensive in three years. 

 

But to those who vilified Gillis for NMCs and view Benning as the great rebuilder, we now have had Miller, Eriksson, Myers, Ferland. . . Pretty much every significant UFA signing has included the “Gillis curse”. 

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50 minutes ago, Alflives said:

How could he?  Myers and Ferland only became a UFAs this year.  Plus, we didn’t know just how great Petey and Hughes were going to be.  

Let me clarify. I'm referring to players of the same ilk. 

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2 minutes ago, SealTheDeal said:

His moves still baffle me to some degree. I’m not opposed to Ferland, his price or his term. I worry that both he and Myers are overrated, with stats boosted by playing alongside strong supporting casts and with underlying analytics are not great, but I do think this is a good time to spend as much money as possible and accumulate assets. These contracts will seem relatively inexpensive in three years. 

 

But to those who vilified Gillis for NMCs and view Benning as the great rebuilder, we now have had Miller, Eriksson, Myers, Ferland. . . Pretty much every significant UFA signing has included the “Gillis curse”. 

I don't really know how Miller, Myers, and Ferland fit into the same category as Eriksson? Perhaps I'm misreading what you've said, but even comparing Myers at 6mil to Eriksson at 6mil: at least Myers fills a void and is younger. Eriksson arguably didn't even fill a void.

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2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Whatever...

 

I have nothing critical to say about the management right now. 

I am satiated! 

 

Some of you'll understand that THIS kind of roster is what I’ve been asking for all along.

 

Screw the rebuild and screw the past, I have a team I can finally identify with again!!!

 

There are a few of you out there who share my views and preferences for team identity and composition. To you, high-five!

 

Even some of my adversaries will be happy with what has transpired this year and will have to begrudgingly acknowledge that I got what I’ve been bitching and moaning about on here like a broken records, for years.  

 

Regardless, I am glad we all have to sit through the 189 version of the Canucks for a few years. Now it’s my turn... to enjoy heavy, Canadian-hockey instead of Sedin culture and sportsmanship. 

 

20A4911C-2816-4ED2-9E6F-2140CFDDFFDD.gif.c8b408a349cebe97736bddb3cd38c9e8.gif

 

 

 

 

&^@# ya!!!!

 

 

Amen.  Well said.  

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