[Trade] Avalanche trade Tyson Barrie, Alexander Kerfoot, 2020 6th-round pick to Maple Leafs for Nazem Kadri, Calle Rosen, 2020 3rd-round pick

[DownUndaCanuck]

Wonder if Colorado would have done Sutter and a 3rd for Barrie straight up. Yes Kadri is younger and better than Sutter but Kerfoot is a young 40 point forward as well. Colorado really haven't put much value alone on Barrie's 1 remaining year of 60 pt production at 2M cap hit...

[DeNiro]

18 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Wonder if Colorado would have done Sutter and a 3rd for Barrie straight up. Yes Kadri is younger and better than Sutter but Kerfoot is a young 40 point forward as well. Colorado really haven't put much value alone on Barrie's 1 remaining year of 60 pt production at 2M cap hit...

No they wanted as a 2nd line center.

 

They view Kadri as a 30 goal scoring 60 point center. Sutter is far from that. 

[Monty]

16 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

No they wanted as a 2nd line center.

 

They view Kadri as a 30 goal scoring 60 point center. Sutter is far from that. 

In the 4 seasons Sutter has been with the Canucks, he’s had 37 goals and 75 points. Looks like he has met and exceeded those requirements. 

[mll]

9 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

With regards to Kadri being able to replace Soderberg, it really not even that close.  Soderberg, that guy was an absolute beast and did everything they could ask of him.  He played 60% Dzone starts, lead the team in PK ice time amongst forwards.  He literally took 80% (220 out of 275) of all Av’s PK faceoffs last year.  And on top of that he still put up 20 goals, 50 points.  And 79% of his offense in the last 3 years has came while playing even strength.  While yes he will be 34 in October he’s not a player you walk away from.  He was that foundational player we hoped Sutter to be and sorry Kadri is not even close to being that player.  Kadri is an effective player, jut not a shutdown guy.

 

For comparisons sake, In the last 3 years Kadri has played a grand total of 4:42 on the PK and has taken a whopping 6 faceoffs.  Again that’s the SUM of 3 years not game average.  While yes he did put up two 32 goal seasons, 40% of that production came while playing on the top power play unit.  He was given low Ozone starts the two previous years but he was far the go to shutdown player.  In 2016-17, Komarov took just as many Dzone draws as well as had just as low of ozone starts. Leafs also went out and picked up Boyle to fill that role a the TD.  In 2017-18, It’s bit out of context to use Kadri’s 40% ozone starts as correlating him to a shutdown guy that year as the only 4 forwards received higher than 50% ozone starts.  Marleau Martin, Moore, Kapanen, Komarov all received under 43% ozone starts,  Heck even Nylander only got 47%.

 

Then after Tavares signed his role change,  Kadri got higher ozone starts and less of a role on the top PP unit (despite getting higher PP TOI) and his numbers dropped. Kadri could be an affective second line center, but if the Av’s are expecting him to be an upgrade or a close replacement for that shutdown center role they gave up in Soderberg they are in for a rude awakening.  Had they kept Soderberg this would be less of an issue, but they really don’t have anyone (today) that can fill that role. 

 

I didn't think they would move on just now from Soderberg given his role.  Now looking at their moves it looks like they want to take out the key guys who won't be there long term - allowing others to have the opportunity to take their minutes.   Sakic btw said that it wouldn't work financially to re-sign Barrie. 

 

Those 2 NHL coaches seem to think he can.  The season of his 30 goals there were headlines of how he was excelling in a shutdown role.  Wouldn't know but not sure it matters for Colorado - they seem more focused on finding a 2nd line that can score consistently.

 

They might have simply decided to split Soderberg's duties - they added Bellemare. 

 

Sakic: "Pierre-Edouard is a very good defensive forward and penalty killer who is also strong on faceoffs," said Avalanche Executive Vice President / General Manager Joe Sakic. "He brings added leadership and a veteran presence to our team."

 

Sakic initially said that Jost could play C2 and was going to give an increased roles to their young Cs.  Now he says Jost will move to wing and maybe with Kadri.  Their beat writer Ryan S. Clark has the following lineup:

 

Landeskog MacKinnnon Rantanen

Jost Kadri Burakovsky  

Wilson Compher Donskoi 

Nieto Bellemare Calvert

 

Donskoi, Jost, Burakovsky will likely move around in the top-9.   Wilson could move up too.  In the playoffs he played at times on the 2nd line.  None of those guys have been consistent producers yet.  

 

If they want the Kadri line to produce consistently they might have to move Landeskog or Rantanen down to the 2nd line.  They did that at times last season.  

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by mll

[JeremyCuddles]

3 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Wonder if Colorado would have done Sutter and a 3rd for Barrie straight up. Yes Kadri is younger and better than Sutter but Kerfoot is a young 40 point forward as well. Colorado really haven't put much value alone on Barrie's 1 remaining year of 60 pt production at 2M cap hit...

Or, or. Get him for “free” next summer?

[WHL rocks]

Girard and Byram both top pair Dmen

 

Plus

 

Kemenev Bowers Annunen all part of Duchene trade for Sakic. 

 

Grubauer he used own 2nd to acquire because he had NSH 2nd to use on drafting Annunen.

 

So he was able to acquire his starting goalie because of the pick he got in trade..

 

Because he had defensive riches due to Duchene trade, Sakic traded Barrie to acquire a 2C who plays with edge and will put up close to 30g 60pts. A 2C Avs needed like we needed a RHD.

 

Sakic got a very good player signed to a very cap friendly contract for next 3 years..  AVS win the draft and the off-season so far.

 

Leafs also got a great Dman which they desperately needed.

 

Imagine these 2 teams meet in SCF. If either team makes it to SCF it'll be in large part due to this trade. 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by WHL rocks

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Or, or. Get him for “free” next summer?

Why does everyone just assume oh we can get this guy for free that guy for free if we wait till they hit ufa? The only big name ufa to hit the free agency are people that didnt want to be on that team ie panarin Bob and duchene. Not many top pairing defenceman ever changed address thru free agency in the last God knows how many years. I dont even remember the last time a top 2 defense ended up on free agency. And yes Barrie is viewed as a top 2 defenseman due to his offensive ability. If anything Toronto will find the cap space to keep Barrie. Muzzin is coming off the books next year and they'll likely have traded nylander by then. Unless Barrie doesnt want to be in Toronto on a possible contender hes staying there.

[JeremyCuddles]

2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Why does everyone just assume oh we can get this guy for free that guy for free if we wait till they hit ufa? The only big name ufa to hit the free agency are people that didnt want to be on that team ie panarin Bob and duchene. Not many top pairing defenceman ever changed address thru free agency in the last God knows how many years. I dont even remember the last time a top 2 defense ended up on free agency. And yes Barrie is viewed as a top 2 defenseman due to his offensive ability. If anything Toronto will find the cap space to keep Barrie. Muzzin is coming off the books next year and they'll likely have traded nylander by then. Unless Barrie doesnt want to be in Toronto on a possible contender hes staying there.

I'd say not trading for him and trying to get him in free agency is a better bet than trading for him and potentially losing him AND those assets. And Barrie is really the only free agent I "assume" we can get. I never thought we were legit in on any of the past big name free agents. Barrie makes sense as a BC boy, the team is exiting a rebuild, and he'll be on what will look to be a very good blueline. If Tryamkin comes back, Hughes and Juolevi will potentially be established NHLers by next summer, Stecher and Myers looking solid on the right side.

 

Is he a lock to come here? Of course not, I'd be an idiot to assume that. But our chances are definitely up there. We'll have cap, we'll have a good young roster, and he's from BC. If that doesn't make us one of the 3 front runners for him I dunno what will. But I'd rather gamble on getting him in free agency and save those trade assets. Myers came to Vancouver and he isn't even Canadian but had family from his WHL days. If a guy born in BC doesn't give us the same look an American did I'd be very surprised.

 

Toronto couldn't even fit Barrie's entire 5.5 cap this season, can't imagine they'll fit him next season when they need to take his entire cap which is gonna be north of 6mil. Keeping Barrie likely means they lose both Muzzin and Ceci and play the bad guy by trading Nylander after saying they wouldn't. Their blueline will be worse than ours was this past season. They have 11mil now with Kerfoot, Ceci and Marner still needing contracts. Media keeps saying cap isn't likely to rise next summer either.

[stawns]

4 hours ago, mll said:

 

I didn't think they would move on just now from Soderberg given his role.  Now looking at their moves it looks like they want to take out the key guys who won't be there long term - allowing others to have the opportunity to take their minutes.   Sakic btw said that it wouldn't work financially to re-sign Barrie. 

 

Those 2 NHL coaches seem to think he can.  The season of his 30 goals there were headlines of how he was excelling in a shutdown role.  Wouldn't know but not sure it matters for Colorado - they seem more focused on finding a 2nd line that can score consistently.

 

They might have simply decided to split Soderberg's duties - they added Bellemare. 

 

Sakic: "Pierre-Edouard is a very good defensive forward and penalty killer who is also strong on faceoffs," said Avalanche Executive Vice President / General Manager Joe Sakic. "He brings added leadership and a veteran presence to our team."

 

Sakic initially said that Jost could play C2 and was going to give an increased roles to their young Cs.  Now he says Jost will move to wing and maybe with Kadri.  Their beat writer Ryan S. Clark has the following lineup:

 

Landeskog MacKinnnon Rantanen

Jost Kadri Burakovsky  

Wilson Compher Donskoi 

Nieto Bellemare Calvert

 

Donskoi, Jost, Burakovsky will likely move around in the top-9.   Wilson could move up too.  In the playoffs he played at times on the 2nd line.  None of those guys have been consistent producers yet.  

 

If they want the Kadri line to produce consistently they might have to move Landeskog or Rantanen down to the 2nd line.  They did that at times last season.  

 

They're a serious cup contender with that lineup, for sure.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

7 hours ago, mll said:

 

I didn't think they would move on just now from Soderberg given his role.  Now looking at their moves it looks like they want to take out the key guys who won't be there long term - allowing others to have the opportunity to take their minutes.   Sakic btw said that it wouldn't work financially to re-sign Barrie. 

 

Thats a huge risk before anyone’s even proven they are anywhere close to those responsibilities. It would have been like canucks trading away Sutter and not signing beagle before gaudette has even shown he’s NHL. Soderberg playing stop gap for atleast  another year makes the most sense. 

 

7 hours ago, mll said:

Those 2 NHL coaches seem to think he can.  The season of his 30 goals there were headlines of how he was excelling in a shutdown role.  Wouldn't know but not sure it matters for Colorado - they seem more focused on finding a 2nd line that can score consistently.

 

 

I’m personal friends with a former and a current NHL head coaches so I know I wouldn’t take everything they say as gospel. 

 

 

7 hours ago, mll said:

They might have simply decided to split Soderberg's duties - they added Bellemare. 

 

Sakic: "Pierre-Edouard is a very good defensive forward and penalty killer who is also strong on faceoffs," said Avalanche Executive Vice President / General Manager Joe Sakic. "He brings added leadership and a veteran presence to our team."

  It’s counter intuitive to state that they want the kids to step up and play key roles only to replace soderberg with an older less productive vet. 

 

 

7 hours ago, mll said:

Sakic initially said that Jost could play C2 and was going to give an increased roles to their young Cs.  Now he says Jost will move to wing and maybe with Kadri.  Their beat writer Ryan S. Clark has the following lineup:

 

Landeskog MacKinnnon Rantanen

Jost Kadri Burakovsky  

Wilson Compher Donskoi 

Nieto Bellemare Calvert

 

Now imagine that line up with soderberg as 3C. tbh That line up does really isn’t any more impressive than what they iced last season. 

 

Landy mac rantanen

Jost soderberg kerfoot

wilson compher calvert

nieto brassard andrighetto

 

Kerfoot > donskoi

burakovsky > Calvert. 

 

So really like I said they are banking on players having break out seasons mixed with hope that others are able to hit highs they reached in the past. 

 

Too much risk and Avs could easily take a step back this season. 

 

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

Girard and Byram both top pair Dmen

 

Plus

 

Kemenev Bowers Annunen all part of Duchene trade for Sakic. 

 

Grubauer he used own 2nd to acquire because he had NSH 2nd to use on drafting Annunen.

 

So he was able to acquire his starting goalie because of the pick he got in trade..

 

Because he had defensive riches due to Duchene trade, Sakic traded Barrie to acquire a 2C who plays with edge and will put up close to 30g 60pts. A 2C Avs needed like we needed a RHD.

 

Sakic got a very good player signed to a very cap friendly contract for next 3 years..  AVS win the draft and the off-season so far.

 

Leafs also got a great Dman which they desperately needed.

 

Imagine these 2 teams meet in SCF. If either team makes it to SCF it'll be in large part due to this trade. 

 

 

 

COL is setting themselves up for a run this year and making a team that screams long term success.  Their defense looks to absolutely sick and set for the next decade with Makar, Byram, Timmins and Gerard.  Not even fair really.  Just happy they aren’t in our division...and that ARI will be gone before their rebuild clicks too...

[ShawnAntoski]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

COL is setting themselves up for a run this year and making a team that screams long term success.  Their defense looks to absolutely sick and set for the next decade with Makar, Byram, Timmins and Gerard.  Not even fair really.  Just happy they aren’t in our division...and that ARI will be gone before their rebuild clicks too...

Ditto, Col will be one of the teams to beat in the west for a long time, assuming all those players decide to stay together and if not, Sakic will have to decide who to keep because of the cap....

[mll]

37 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Thats a huge risk before anyone’s even proven they are anywhere close to those responsibilities. It would have been like canucks trading away Sutter and not signing beagle before gaudette has even shown he’s NHL. Soderberg playing stop gap for atleast  another year makes the most sense. 

 

 

 

I’m personal friends with a former and a current NHL head coaches so I know I wouldn’t take everything they say as gospel. 

 

 

  It’s counter intuitive to state that they want the kids to step up and play key roles only to replace soderberg with an older less productive vet. 

 

 

 

Now imagine that line up with soderberg as 3C. tbh That line up does really isn’t any more impressive than what they iced last season. 

 

Landy mac rantanen

Jost soderberg kerfoot

wilson compher calvert

nieto brassard andrighetto

 

Kerfoot > donskoi

burakovsky > Calvert. 

 

So really like I said they are banking on players having break out seasons mixed with hope that others are able to hit highs they reached in the past. 

 

Too much risk and Avs could easily take a step back this season. 

 

 

We're not disagreeing.  I am just trying to figure out their train of thought.  

[D-Money]

20 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I really liked the route the Av’s were going.  I just don’t really like the direction they have taken this years as much.  I feel like they had there glimpse of success while getting on a hot streak and got under the belief they are a lot closer than they really are, a few tweaks away.  This is very similar to what the oilers did their first off season after making the post season.  They shipped out players of need and replaced them with areas they thought would make them stronger in the post season, not realizing the players they moved were huge key’s to their success.   

 

Moving Barrie was the right move and using him to fill a 2nd line center was what they needed to do. I just don’t know if Kadri is that player I would have went after and I for sure wouldn’t have moved out a 42 point player in Kerfoot in the process.  Av’s need more scoring and they need to spread it out. 

 

Even if you look at the players in verse out have they really added that much?

 

Kadri 43 points, Soderberg 49 points

Donskoi 37 points, Kerfoot 42 points

Makar  ? points, Barrie 59 points

 

So really the Burakovsky’s 25 point season is all they added.  They are really banking on Jost, Makar, Compher, Girad having break out years to pick up the needed offence.  They are also banking on Grubauer to be able to handle the number 1 role after loosing Varlamov who played he majority of the games last season.  They better hope that MacKinnon and Rantanen can at least match their previous season totals.  Av’s were a bubble playoff team last year and were two wins away from missing, while they have some real promise I think they are banking on too much on best case scenario. 

 

Although I agree with some of your assessments here, I look at it as almost the complete opposite. The Avs went on a nice run last year, but they know it could have easily gone the other way too. There's no guarantee that Grubauer can handle the starting role, that Makar can perform at his playoff level over the rigors of a full NHL season, etc. So rather than doubling down, they took a step back and got long-term value on guys that aren't in their future plans.

 

Barrie will be too expensive. Soderberg will be in his mid-30s, and in the future Bowers will have his role. And they just don't see Kerfoot as worth what he's going to command for his next contract. So they save money now, don't have to worry about the optics of trading Barrie/Soderberg at the deadline (i.e. -  if they are in a playoff position), don't have to worry about either getting injured and then walking for nothing, they get future value out of Kadri, and allow the team they want long-term to grow together. They also shored up their LD with Rosen (who I feel is being overlooked) and Connauton, which leads me to believe that they might have decided to trade Zadorov as well.

 

[rekker]

56 minutes ago, D-Money said:

Although I agree with some of your assessments here, I look at it as almost the complete opposite. The Avs went on a nice run last year, but they know it could have easily gone the other way too. There's no guarantee that Grubauer can handle the starting role, that Makar can perform at his playoff level over the rigors of a full NHL season, etc. So rather than doubling down, they took a step back and got long-term value on guys that aren't in their future plans.

 

Barrie will be too expensive. Soderberg will be in his mid-30s, and in the future Bowers will have his role. And they just don't see Kerfoot as worth what he's going to command for his next contract. So they save money now, don't have to worry about the optics of trading Barrie/Soderberg at the deadline (i.e. -  if they are in a playoff position), don't have to worry about either getting injured and then walking for nothing, they get future value out of Kadri, and allow the team they want long-term to grow together. They also shored up their LD with Rosen (who I feel is being overlooked) and Connauton, which leads me to believe that they might have decided to trade Zadorov as well.

 

To add to this TO gave up a very good, cost controlled center for three years for a one year rental and a contract in Kerfoot they cant afford. Dubas is really just shuffling chairs and added a dman that doesn't suit their needs. I'm tired of the Dubas is a hero crap and cant wait till next July when they have no Barrie, Kadri, or Kerfoot. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by rekker

[Bobby James]

15 minutes ago, rekker said:

To add to this TO gave up a very good, cost controlled center for three years for a one year rental and a contract in Kerfoot they cant afford. Dubas is really just shuffling chairs and added a dman that doesn't suit their needs. I'm tired of the Dubas is a hero crap and cant wait till next July when they have no Barrie, Kadri, or Kerfoot. 

I think Dubas is doing what he can at this point while very clearly having a core 3 players on this team to build around. I agree the media is annoying when it comes to him, but overall I think the trade was good for both teams. Toronto's main issue is going to be will these players sign long term or just be a temporary solution until they have to address this again next off season (although if they win a cup none of it will matter then). 

 

Yeah their D looks a lot better this season, but they had to give up an excellent C in Kadri who I think will do really well in Colorado and has a stellar contract. 

 

I hope the Canucks are talking to Toronto and are offering Tanev at 50% retained and trying to pry away andreas johnsson, kasperi kapanen or rasmus sandin (maybe with an added sweetner by us). That would be great for Toronto to have a steady 2nd pairing RD and could give Ceci a more controlled output on the 3rd pairing. Tanev could also sign a more reasonable cost contract with them next season.

[King Heffy]

15 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

Why does everyone just assume oh we can get this guy for free that guy for free if we wait till they hit ufa? The only big name ufa to hit the free agency are people that didnt want to be on that team ie panarin Bob and duchene. Not many top pairing defenceman ever changed address thru free agency in the last God knows how many years. I dont even remember the last time a top 2 defense ended up on free agency. And yes Barrie is viewed as a top 2 defenseman due to his offensive ability. If anything Toronto will find the cap space to keep Barrie. Muzzin is coming off the books next year and they'll likely have traded nylander by then. Unless Barrie doesnt want to be in Toronto on a possible contender hes staying there.

Toronto is insane if they don't keep Muzzin.  He's the only defenseman on their entire roster who plays like an NHLer in his own zone.  Barrie isn't a top 2 unless he cleans up his defensive zone play a ton.  Still needs a babysitter out there.

[oldnews]

11 hours ago, Bobby James said:

I think Dubas is doing what he can at this point while very clearly having a core 3 players on this team to build around. I agree the media is annoying when it comes to him, but overall I think the trade was good for both teams. Toronto's main issue is going to be will these players sign long term or just be a temporary solution until they have to address this again next off season (although if they win a cup none of it will matter then). 

 

Yeah their D looks a lot better this season, but they had to give up an excellent C in Kadri who I think will do really well in Colorado and has a stellar contract. 

 

I hope the Canucks are talking to Toronto and are offering Tanev at 50% retained and trying to pry away andreas johnsson, kasperi kapanen or rasmus sandin (maybe with an added sweetner by us). That would be great for Toronto to have a steady 2nd pairing RD and could give Ceci a more controlled output on the 3rd pairing. Tanev could also sign a more reasonable cost contract with them next season.

Offering Tanev at 50% for one of those forwards effectively taps you out.

And let's say we get the better of those two - and better fit - Kapanen - how much are you upgrading at 2RW with him?

 

Because when you look at his 44 pts last year, over 50% of that ice time was spent with Matthews, next most time with Kadri/Marleau on a pretty difficult 3rd line to matchup with defensively, otherwise a mere 3.4% of his icetime on neither of those lines.

Very good player, good young two way player - but for the purposes of comparing to the player he'd be an upgrade on, Baertschi has ironcially scored at a 44, 45 and 42 pts per 82 game pace the past three seasons....Kapanen could uptick more - might not in a different context (I think if he were playing with Horvat it's highly likely he continues to uptick) - but is that worth dealing Tanev with retention - still having that abundance of forwards, lacking cap space, and having to re-solve an issue on the right side of the blueline?

I think that type of deal would ideally be more complicated and involve a RHD coming back (something Sandin is not) - so I'm not sure a deal with the Leafs makes as much sense as a deal with other teams might.  If the Leafs took an additonal aset  (ie Goldobin) in that deal and returned a solid future to use in a deal, perhaps.

[Junkyard Dog]

If Toronto added Tanev they’d have a pretty deep D-core. 

 

Not sure what we would get back. We would have to retain salary and take cap back. 

 

Maybe we could muster up a package for Nylander? Idk. 

[wai_lai416]

5 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Toronto is insane if they don't keep Muzzin.  He's the only defenseman on their entire roster who plays like an NHLer in his own zone.  Barrie isn't a top 2 unless he cleans up his defensive zone play a ton.  Still needs a babysitter out there.

i would still put barrie in top 2. definitely not the #1 defenseman on any team but his offensive capability makes up for his defensive lapses kinda like a Karlsson. Barrie is probably one of the best offensive defenseman out there, and if he cleans up his defense.. then all of a sudden we are talking about a norris caliber defenseman which i don't think he is.