Why can't the Canucks develop a pwf?

[Quinn_Jet]

10 minutes ago, naslund.is.king said:

When i think of Power forwards i think of:Lindros,Bertuzzi,Benn,Getzlaf,and etc...These type of players don't exactly come around everyday.

 

^ Pretty much this.

 

Lots of teams draft power forwards, not many develop into legit top six talent in the NHL though, most seem to struggle to break into the league or they eke out a living playing bottom six. It's not just us that has a difficult time, many teams do, as for why...

 

I believe it's a few reasons, one of them being that the game has changed over the past decade and speed is less of a good attribute to have and more of an absolute necessity to be able to play in today's game. A lot of so called power forwards tend to suffer in the speed department, not all (see Chris Kreider), but a lot of pwf's have trouble there.

Another is a catch 22 scenario, they ooze oodles of potential because of their size and strength along with other attributes, but it's their very size and strength that prevents a lot of them from developing a good hockey acumen.

 

Perfect example of this is Virtanen, guy doesn't lack for speed and he also possesses a great shot, he doesn't think the game at an NHL level though, I personally believe it's because a lot of pwf's are able to bulldoze their way through juniors playing against 16yr old, 150lbs soaking wet kids. When they come up against NHL competition, they neither have the time nor space that they are used to and aren't able to physically impose their will upon their competitors as easily as they once had. Some are able to adapt, many are not.

 

Lastly, I think it's because pwf's, more-so then any other kind of forward, they take a longer time to develop. GM's and even fans are used to waiting for years and years for D to develop and even longer for goalies. For forwards, it seems if they're not there in a few years, they get discarded more easily, minutes go down, chances to shine are fewer and farther in between and they eventually bounce from team to team.

 

 

[RowdyCanuck]

7 minutes ago, 6string said:

I'm on record here for Lucic for Eriksson with a sweetener.

 

Yes we need a marshall patrolling the ice for the young guns. The Sedin ere with Mike Gillis's failure to recognize this pisses me off big time to this day!!!

Same. I agree 100% preach ha

Gentleman hockey gets you nothing. 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

Power forward culture is dying.  The NHL is getting faster and smaller.  Its biggest problem is that it is not getting safer.  And no, self-policing isn't going to become a thing again.  A proper reffing protocol and a proper disciplinary system can make the NHL an exciting, clean sport.  We are not there yet.

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Your right their rare but their there. Thx to Gillis we pasted on a few good choices but at the time we played a fast skill game like Tamapa...size didn't matter.

I agree that Green has done a decent job with Jake other then jumping him from line to line he doesn't have the hockey iq to do that. He played good with bo when green put him there.  

But would you draft a pwf with our track record? 

Jim has changed the team to were guys like Jake and Vp can play their game without worry.

You right though they cost but you need pwfs in your top six to win in the playoffs. 

Yes, I'd take the bpa  and when that bpa is Podkolzin , great, they drafted another potential pwf.

Some folks here aren't happy with 'just' a pwf though - they need to be heavyweights as well apparently.

 

The last really good Canuck pwf was probably Bertuzzi - and ironically, that was a case of a pwf someone else didn't 'devlop'.....or rather, didn't have the patience for.

 

[Quinn_Jet]

2 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Same. I agree 100% preach ha

Gentleman hockey gets you nothing. 

I believe this draft addressed this issue with a giant exclamation mark.

Podkolzin is like a bull in a china shop and Hoglander should hopefully be at his worst a 3rd/4th liner who plays in the same vein of Brendan Gallagher, or at his best, a Swedish Brendan Gallagher.

[RowdyCanuck]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Yes, I'd take the bpa  and when that bpa is Podkolzin , great, they drafted another potential pwf.

Some folks here aren't happy with 'just' a pwf though - they need to be heavyweights as well apparently.

 

The last really good Canuck pwf was probably Bertuzzi - and ironically, that was a case of a pwf someone else didn't 'devlop'.....or rather, didn't have the patience for.

 

I agree that pwfs don't need to be heavy weights but usually the team has one so they can play their game without worry. 

But bpa differ depends what your looking at....that's why you see guys that show promise that can be pwfs go all over the first round

[RowdyCanuck]

4 minutes ago, Quinn_Jet said:

I believe this draft addressed this issue with a giant exclamation mark.

Podkolzin is like a bull in a china shop and Hoglander should hopefully be at his worst a 3rd/4th liner who plays in the same vein of Brendan Gallagher, or at his best, a Swedish Brendan Gallagher.

I agree and hopefully we find a heavy weight to watch them and let them play their style. That's the main theme I've seen threw doing a lil research that most pwfs had a older vet watching out for them when they came into the league. 

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

I agree that pwfs don't need to be heavy weights but usually the team has one so they can play their game without worry. 

But bpa differ depends what your looking at....that's why you see guys that show promise that can be pwfs go all over the first round

how many 'heavyweightts' are there left in the NHL?

how many pwfs have heavyweights looking out for them so they can develop their game 'properly' under the wing of a heavyweight.

I'm not sure it's that much of a thing.

[RowdyCanuck]

13 minutes ago, Quinn_Jet said:

^ Pretty much this.

 

Lots of teams draft power forwards, not many develop into legit top six talent in the NHL though, most seem to struggle to break into the league or they eke out a living playing bottom six. It's not just us that has a difficult time, many teams do, as for why...

 

I believe it's a few reasons, one of them being that the game has changed over the past decade and speed is less of a good attribute to have and more of an absolute necessity to be able to play in today's game. A lot of so called power forwards tend to suffer in the speed department, not all (see Chris Kreider), but a lot of pwf's have trouble there.

Another is a catch 22 scenario, they ooze oodles of potential because of their size and strength along with other attributes, but it's their very size and strength that prevents a lot of them from developing a good hockey acumen.

 

Perfect example of this is Virtanen, guy doesn't lack for speed and he also possesses a great shot, he doesn't think the game at an NHL level though, I personally believe it's because a lot of pwf's are able to bulldoze their way through juniors playing against 16yr old, 150lbs soaking wet kids. When they come up against NHL competition, they neither have the time nor space that they are used to and aren't able to physically impose their will upon their competitors as easily as they once had. Some are able to adapt, many are not.

 

Lastly, I think it's because pwf's, more-so then any other kind of forward, they take a longer time to develop. GM's and even fans are used to waiting for years and years for D to develop and even longer for goalies. For forwards, it seems if they're not there in a few years, they get discarded more easily, minutes go down, chances to shine are fewer and farther in between and they eventually bounce from team to team.

 

 

I think one of jakes problems is he hasn't figure out he can run guys over like he did in whl. 

It's mental for him on something's. 

I agree there so hard to scout. 

Let me ask you this would Jake be a better play on a team like Boston? Or even Wpg?

[RowdyCanuck]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

how many 'heavyweightts' are there left in the NHL?

how many pwfs have heavyweights looking out for them so they can develop their game 'properly' under the wing of a heavyweight.

I'm not sure it's that much of a thing.

Look at Colorado they brought on iggy to help out their team sure his not a heavy weight but still a tough sob. Look at Vegas Reeves makes guys like tuch play even bigger. There's a few top players that when they broke into the league had a tough sob lookin out for them and I will say most of the top players are in late 20s so the game has changed a bit since then. 

[canuktravella]

1 hour ago, 6string said:

Jim Sandlak known as "The House", Shawn Antoski and Alex Stojanov who landed us Marcus Naslund also failed in fulilling their roles as bruising PFwds.

 

Bertuzzi and Momesso were two that were absolute soldiers on the ice. Virtanen can't match either, I'm thinking Podkolzin is our next one.

how did sandlak fail he would chip in 15-20 goals and hit and fight for us??

Edited July 5, 2019 by canuktravella

[PistolPete13]

1 hour ago, RowdyCanuck said:

So it's the culture in Van? Cause we have no problems with skill guys or even two way players/pests like Kes and burr.

it just sucks cause from watching the playoffs pasted few years you need pwfs in your top six to win. 

Its kinda sad that Bert is best pwf and really the only pwf that has worn a Canucks jersey and he wasn't even drafted and developed by us. Taking nothing away from Bert was a big fan of his.

Curt Fraser was pretty good in his day.

[6string]

2 minutes ago, canuktravella said:

how did sandlak fail he would chip in 15-20 goals and hit and fight for us??

At number 4 overall in 1985...

 

He never met the expecations.

 

15 - 20 goals in an era of 40 to a jaw dropping 80 goals was disappointing.

 

If he were a middle of the pack guy in scoring he would have to put up 30 and beyond.

 

Dmen could reach 15 -20 back then....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[18W-40C-6W]

1 hour ago, Quinn_Jet said:

^ Pretty much this.

 

Lots of teams draft power forwards, not many develop into legit top six talent in the NHL though, most seem to struggle to break into the league or they eke out a living playing bottom six. It's not just us that has a difficult time, many teams do, as for why...

 

I believe it's a few reasons, one of them being that the game has changed over the past decade and speed is less of a good attribute to have and more of an absolute necessity to be able to play in today's game. A lot of so called power forwards tend to suffer in the speed department, not all (see Chris Kreider), but a lot of pwf's have trouble there.

Another is a catch 22 scenario, they ooze oodles of potential because of their size and strength along with other attributes, but it's their very size and strength that prevents a lot of them from developing a good hockey acumen.

 

Perfect example of this is Virtanen, guy doesn't lack for speed and he also possesses a great shot, he doesn't think the game at an NHL level though, I personally believe it's because a lot of pwf's are able to bulldoze their way through juniors playing against 16yr old, 150lbs soaking wet kids. When they come up against NHL competition, they neither have the time nor space that they are used to and aren't able to physically impose their will upon their competitors as easily as they once had. Some are able to adapt, many are not.

 

Lastly, I think it's because pwf's, more-so then any other kind of forward, they take a longer time to develop. GM's and even fans are used to waiting for years and years for D to develop and even longer for goalies. For forwards, it seems if they're not there in a few years, they get discarded more easily, minutes go down, chances to shine are fewer and farther in between and they eventually bounce from team to team.

 

 

I agree with all you've said above, but I think the issue is more nuanced on many power forward's transition from bulldozing in junior to the NHL. Agreed that time and space is gone and their size is no longer the advantage it was. The problem THEN becomes a lack of willingness to change their game. Rather than recognizing that their tools are still very valuable (ie Jake's speed and size, ability to punish very big men is still there), and simply adjusting their game, they often try to 'play the same game' and think eventually it will come. They simply don't recognize that their tools aren't as valuable at this level, that they NEED to alter their games. This is what learning what the pro game is, an why time in the AHL is valuable. I don't think these players lack hockey IQ, Jake included. That's an overused hyperbole and generalization, no one makes it to any pro sport without game sense, imho.

 

The issue imho is (even in Jake's case) that these players need to recognize that what they did in the past will not work as effectively now. So they need to use that speed, size, and strength differently and improve in other details of the game that in the past they may have ignored, edgework, mobility in tight, quicker shot release, getting to the tougher areas vs assuming you can speed around a dman or overpower him, drive the net just to create chaos, hit more, etc. Getting to tougher areas is key, if in the past you could over power, now you have to learn to use technique, learn how to expose weaknesses.

 

I believe this is why Green has been going slow with JV, he is 'coaching' him to use his tools in a 'different manner', and this takes time. It doesn't mean bad hockey IQ, its 're-inventing' big parts of his game, while keeping what he can. Try coaching a golf swing out of someone, same idea, it takes time, even if its a great golfer. The fact Jake was working with that skills coach last year, and continues to realize there are details of his game that can improve, tells me he gets it, and its not a hockey IQ issue, its more nuanced imho (and the same for many pwf's).

Edited July 5, 2019 by 18W-40C-6W

[JeremyCuddles]

JaKe WaS nEvEr A pOwErFoRwArD 

[khay]

What is the definition of a power forward? It's unclear to me to be honest.

 

Are guys like Corey Perry and Matthew Tkachuk true PWF? They are great around the net but are they PWFs? 

 

PWFs have strong physicality coupled with powerful skating to drive to the net, and have enough skill to score goals once they are in, no matter how  tight they are. They live at the front of the net and defenders can't move them out. These guys hit hard to separate the puck carrier from the puck and doesn't back down from a fight. Something like that? Yeah, just those guys are rare to begin with. 

 

The elite PWFs that we want are even rarer. Think about it, if EP was 6'4 230 pounds and had the skills and the vision that he already has, he would be touted the generational talent and go #1 overall. How can you get those guys? Luck. We just didn't have enough luck. We got lucky with Bert but not much after him.

 

We tried to trade for some guys that had that potential, e.g., Kassian, a skilled guy, strong skater and physicality but couldn't put things together. We have Jake, even stronger skater with physicality and a hard shot to boot, but can he put it together? 

 

Among the recent draft picks there's Brady Tkachuk, who I think is going to be an elite PWF like his father. But who else?

 

Then there are lower echelon of PWFs. Lucic is an example, decent hand and strong but not a powerful skater. It seems like in every draft, there are many William Nylanders and Ehlers, the finesse, skilled players but only 1 or 2 PWFs drafted out of 200+ kids that are drafted every year. And if such a player can be identified at age 18, then they usually go in the top 5-10. We haven't had many top 10 picks until recently. 

 

Just look at draft from 2014 when we started to draft high. Of the top 20 scorers, how many PWFs are there?

2014: Draisaitl?

2015: Timo Meier?

2016: Dubois? M. Tkachuk?

2017: B. Tkachuk

 

Out of these players, only M, Tkahuck was available where we drafted. It's not just us, every team wants to develop PWF and have little success. Well, at least that's what I think.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by khay

[Bubble Man]

Jake never recovered from his shoulder injury. I remember watching him on the Hitmen before we even drafted him. His shot was so damn hard. He was so fast that you almost needed a strobe light to see him. Just a Tasmanian devil. 

 

In hindsight

- He should have played another year of Jr.

- He should have never been developed as a checking forward because had exceptional offensive skills.

- After he was injured we didn’t give him the time to regain his swagger. We needed size and exploited him.

 - We should have groomed him for the top 6 and PP by playing on the comets Not the 4th line in the NHL.

 

He will never have the chance to regain that scoring touch he had in Jr. It’s really sad because he was electric. I loved the pick because I saw him play in Calgary a few times and just couldn’t believe how much he stood out. I actually still don’t blame JB for taking a chance on JV.  

[Industrious1]

We spent a loooong time in the "Turn the other Cheek" era where we (well not all of us, but there was a lot of shouting down back then too)  foolishly thought an elite powerplay would carry us not only through the regular season...but somehow thought that would be a thing in the playoffs as well.

 

This kind of ran counter to the thoughts of developing a big bruising forward group that would punish other teams physically.  So for that period of time developing a power forward was certainly difficult.

[timberz21]

Should rename your post :

 

Why can't the Canucks most NHL team develop a pwf?

They are probably the most unpredictable type of players to develop.  I'm pretty sure there are no secret recipe...a lot of luck IMO.  You take a guy like Lucic who came out of nowhere and made the Bruins teams and was a solid Power forward for many years.  Then you have a guy like Kassian who had a solid junior career, played for WHJC, was a 13 overall pick that was nothing more than a third liner at his best.     I believe many scout looks at those big 6'3"/6'4" frame in junior and start salivating.  But the fact is, many of these "prototypical" power forward in junior are having success because of their overpowering size against other junior kids.   When they finally make it to the NHL against men, their size is not as big as an advantage as in junior and their lack of skill start showing up.  

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by timberz21

[JeremyCuddles]

43 minutes ago, Industrious1 said:

We spent a loooong time in the "Turn the other Cheek" era where we (well not all of us, but there was a lot of shouting down back then too)  foolishly thought an elite powerplay would carry us not only through the regular season...but somehow thought that would be a thing in the playoffs as well.

 

This kind of ran counter to the thoughts of developing a big bruising forward group that would punish other teams physically.  So for that period of time developing a power forward was certainly difficult.

I mean, that style got us to game 7 of the Cup finals. So it's not like that style doesn't work. 29, and recently 30 teams, all lose each year. Does that mean their styles outright can't work? No, not necessarily. Just means that particular season it didn't or something went wrong IE injuries, bad calls (like that one that got Vegas bounced) etc. One or two little things change and we'd be remembering that 2011 team much differently. Maybe we don't trade Hodgson for Kassian either because of this idea that we NEED to be bigger.