(Poll) who is more valuable to the Canucks this year, Sutter or LE?

[Amebushi]

23 minutes ago, EliasBoeser said:

Is this like a test? You pick LE and you get banished?

I don’t think I’d go that far. I’ll admit my opinion is rather strong and likely set. That doesn’t eliminate the fun of a little debate. How does LE bring more value to this years team than Sutter?  I feel it’s like arguing about a $6 million dollar Pinto vs a $4.3 million dollar civic (with an oil leak) but still feel one is “more valuable” than the other. Would love to hear an opposing viewpoint. 

[iceman64]

20 minutes ago, EliasBoeser said:

Is this like a test? You pick LE and you get banished?

That's pretty much it as Sutter is less cap and at least he really tries.. LE? Saw him play 2 incredible games in all his time here and that's all we have basically got out of him last game with the sedin's and the Boston game.. ugh just no... Maybe I missed a game or so that he actually played like he meant it but that's something that one should expect most games without needing any outside motivation because there's "millions" of reasons why that shouldn't be an issue.. 

[luckylager]

34 minutes ago, Amebushi said:

I don’t think I’d go that far. I’ll admit my opinion is rather strong and likely set. That doesn’t eliminate the fun of a little debate. How does LE bring more value to this years team than Sutter?  I feel it’s like arguing about a $6 million dollar Pinto vs a $4.3 million dollar civic (with an oil leak) but still feel one is “more valuable” than the other. Would love to hear an opposing viewpoint. 

Dude, you take the civic.

 

Didn't you ever watch "Top Secret"?

 

 

OP- You should have made your poll public. I want names dammit!

[PistolPete13]

I saw LE playing with Boston against Calgary at the Saddledome, and he was one of the best players on the ice.

Then he lit it up playing for Sweden that Summer. So I was pretty jacked when we then signed him, even it was for 6m.

 

Then LE scores on his own net in his first game as a Canuck.  He never seemed to regain his mojo after that. I hope he goes back to Sweden and totally lights it up over there.

 

LE as a Canuck was just not meant to be.

 

 

[iceman64]

One thing for sure, a lot of us are responding to this and other things is out of boredom waiting for Oct. to roll around.. 

[iceman64]

2 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

I saw LE playing with Boston against Calgary at the Saddledome, and he was one of the best players on the ice.

Then he lit it up playing for Sweden that Summer. So I was pretty jacked when we then signed him, even it was for 6m.

 

Then LE scores on his own net in his first game as a Canuck.  He never seemed to regain his mojo after that. I hope he goes back to Sweden and totally lights it up over there.

 

LE as a Canuck was just not meant to be.

 

 

Kind of like buying a Porsche and having it parked in the driveway all the time and seldom driving it because it's just a tad (lol) unreliable, looks good sitting there but you know it probably won't start... 

[brbetts542]

I voted for LE- at this point, the league and I take sutter at face value And he is battling with gauduette for his roster spot.

 

LE “could” play in a few different places throughout the lineup and potentially recover some of his market value.

 

so suttees 19-20 season is less valuable than LEs. To the Canucks 

 

 

[AlwaysACanuckFan]

Where is Pettersson for option #3?

[Topcheeze86]

Sutter when healthy has a great faceoff percentage and is a great penalty killer LE has a very low compete level almost like he doesnt try out there it drove me crazy all season watching LE and granlund 

[Smashian Kassian]

Sutter AINEC. In a perfect world he'd play the Malhotra matchup role. 

[goog16]

LOL loui has 7 votes, did Timrafan make multiple accounts?

[JamesB]

20 hours ago, Pete M said:

Who is more valuable to the Canucks this year, Sutter or LE?

 

16 hours ago, EliasBoeser said:

Is this like a test? You pick LE and you get banished?

 

11 hours ago, goog16 said:

LOL loui has 7 votes, did Timrafan make multiple accounts?

OK, I am going to be the Devil's Advocate on this one and make a case for LE. I admit that Sutter is the obvious answer and he does play center, which is the more valuable position, other things equal.

 

I would also add that obviously both Sutter and LE have been disappointing. I personally have disliked both those deals since Day 1.

 

That said, I think CDC is a little too negative about LE. Here are some considerations.

 

1. The question is about who is more valuable, not who provides better value per dollar of cap hit or who has a worse contract. LE has a terrible contract and I remain very critical of Benning for signing it. It is buyout proof, too long,  and untradeable among other things. Sutter's contract is not nearly as bad. But the question is not who has the worse contract. So I will focus purely who is more valuable on the ice.

 

2. LE has been relatively healthy. Sutter has not. And the injuries he has had, especially his groin problem, are the kind of thing that often recur and that can permanently reduce skating ability. There is a decent chance Sutter does not play much again next year or, if he does play, is not at 100%. In terms of expected value, that needs to be factored into the calculation.

 

3. For both guys, PK duty is an important part of their portfolio. Sutter has a reputation as a good penalty killer but he is only about average. LE is an excellent PK player. Last year, LE has the lowest expected goals against per 60 minutes on the Canucks (4.63). Sutter was 8th (out of 16 guys with more than 20 PK minutes) at 6.29. You get the same story if you use actual goals against or CORSI or Fenwick, etc. LE is often under-rated as penalty killer. He is actually very good.

 

4. At 5-on-5 both guys played a lot of shutdown, so their deployment was similar and comparisons should not be subject to bias created by different quality of competition. The 5-on-5 numbers favor LE. In terms of scoring, LE scored 1.43 pts. per 60 minutes. Sutter was much worse at 0.74. Similarly, LE was a lot better on corsi, fenwick, expected goal differential or any other stat commonly used to assess performance.

 

5. Last year, Sutter's faceoff percentage was 49.08. So, while LE does not take face-offs, Sutter did not provide any net benefit from faceoff beyond having an "average" faceoff guy playing with Eriksson. 

 

6. LE played well with Beagle. They were very good on the PK together and very good at shutdown together. On the numbers, the LE-Beagle combo was better than a Sutter-Beagle combo would be.

 

7. Last year, Sutter may have been have playing hurt some of the time and that may have depressed his numbers but, as noted above, he may never get back to 100% health.

 

8. Neither LE nor Sutter contributes much to the physical game or the speed game. Sutter used to be thought of a good skater but as I see things he is below average at this stage in his career -- probably groin injury related.

 

Bottom line: If Gaudette gets the 3C role, I think LE would be a better shutdown winger playing with Beagle than Sutter would be.

 

LE is still paid far too much, but if he were being paid $2 million, the Canucks or any other team would be pretty happy with him.

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by JamesB

[Timråfan]

6 hours ago, goog16 said:

LOL loui has 7 votes, did Timrafan make multiple accounts?

I only got five so I don't have a clue who the rest is 

[Timråfan]

3 hours ago, JamesB said:

 

 

OK, I am going to be the Devil's Advocate on this one and make a case for LE. I admit that Sutter is the obvious answer and he does play center, which is the more valuable position, other things equal.

 

I would also add that obviously both Sutter and LE have been disappointing. I personally have disliked both those deals since Day 1.

 

That said, I think CDC is a little too negative about LE. Here are some considerations.

 

1. The question is about who is more valuable, not who provides better value per dollar of cap hit or who has a worse contract. LE has a terrible contract and I remain very critical of Benning for signing it. It is buyout proof, too long,  and untradeable among other things. Sutter's contract is not nearly as bad. But the question is not who has the worse contract. So I will focus purely who is more valuable on the ice.

 

2. LE has been relatively healthy. Sutter has not. And the injuries he has had, especially his groin problem, are the kind of thing that often recur and that can permanently reduce skating ability. There is a decent chance Sutter does not play much again next year or, if he does play, is not at 100%. In terms of expected value, that needs to be factored into the calculation.

 

3. For both guys, PK duty is an important part of their portfolio. Sutter has a reputation as a good penalty killer but he is only about average. LE is an excellent PK player. Last year, LE has the lowest expected goals against per 60 minutes on the Canucks (4.63). Sutter was 8th (out of 16 guys with more than 20 PK minutes) at 6.29. You get the same story if you use actual goals against or CORSI or Fenwick, etc. LE is often under-rated as penalty killer. He is actually very good.

 

4. At 5-on-5 both guys played a lot of shutdown, so their deployment was similar and comparisons should not be subject to bias created by different quality of competition. The 5-on-5 numbers favor LE. In terms of scoring, LE scored 1.43 pts. per 60 minutes. Sutter was much worse at 0.74. Similarly, LE was a lot better on corsi, fenwick, expected goal differential or any other stat commonly used to assess performance.

 

5. Last year, Sutter's faceoff percentage was 49.08. So, while LE does not take face-offs, Sutter did not provide any net benefit from faceoff beyond having an "average" faceoff guy playing with Eriksson. 

 

6. LE played well with Beagle. They were very good on the PK together and very good at shutdown together. On the numbers, the LE-Beagle combo was better than a Sutter-Beagle combo would be.

 

7. Last year, Sutter may be have playing hurt some of the time and that may have depressed his numbers but, as noted above, he may never get back to 100% health.

 

8. Neither LE nor Sutter contributes much to the physical game or the speed game. Sutter used to be thought of a good skater but as I see things he is below average at this stage in his career -- probably groin injury related.

 

Bottom line: If Gaudette gets the 3C role, I think LE would be a better shutdown winger playing with Beagle than Sutter would be.

 

LE is still paid far too much, but if he were being paid $2 million, the Canucks or any other time should be pretty happy with him.

 

 

 

Fans voting for Sutter should read 3 and 4 a few times so they get what it says. Loui is a better value for the team compared with Sutter.

And, it is not I that proof it either so don't jump on me.

 

 

[IBatch]

One thing I will say is both vets are better options then Motte, Leivo, Goldobin and AG for now at least.   Thanks James B for spending the time to play the devils advocate and saying why LE might be the better option.  One things for sure both vets will feel more pressure to produce for different reasons...one to stay relevant and perhaps raise his stock enough to make a trade possible, the other to stay healthy and also improve to keep ahead of AG after a dreadful season.  Curiously with Miller and added depth a third scoring line is also another option, and both could end up relegated to the fourth line with Beagle....what would we call them? The McDavids maybe, because the line would cost more then him ha ha.  

 

Seriously though they are becoming redundant and much cheaper options are available.  Think both guys have a lot to prove, both can be fairly effective players and still have value albeit less then their respective cap hits.  If LE wants to keep playing at all in this league he has to bring it as a trade might provide the only certainty going forward.  If Sutter wants to be part of this team and keep his spot for the remainder of his contract him too, at this point to save on cap space he’s low hanging fruit.

[DrJockitch]

36 minutes ago, IBatch said:

One thing I will say is both vets are better options then Motte, Leivo, Goldobin and AG for now at least.   Thanks James B for spending the time to play the devils advocate and saying why LE might be the better option.  One things for sure both vets will feel more pressure to produce for different reasons...one to stay relevant and perhaps raise his stock enough to make a trade possible, the other to stay healthy and also improve to keep ahead of AG after a dreadful season.  Curiously with Miller and added depth a third scoring line is also another option, and both could end up relegated to the fourth line with Beagle....what would we call them? The McDavids maybe, because the line would cost more then him ha ha.  

 

Seriously though they are becoming redundant and much cheaper options are available.  Think both guys have a lot to prove, both can be fairly effective players and still have value albeit less then their respective cap hits.  If LE wants to keep playing at all in this league he has to bring it as a trade might provide the only certainty going forward.  If Sutter wants to be part of this team and keep his spot for the remainder of his contract him too, at this point to save on cap space he’s low hanging fruit.

Would Eriksson-Beagle-Sutter be the most expensive fourth line in history, at over $14M it may be. 

That would be somewhat embarrassing for Benning.

Then you could run a third of Baerschi/Leivo-Gaudette-Virtanen.  With Goldy as extra forward and Motte in AHL.

Not the worst idea out there.

[Timråfan]

18 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Would Eriksson-Beagle-Sutter be the most expensive fourth line in history, at over $14M.....

Not the worst idea out there.

It shows we mean business this season.

[apollo]

Very funny thread not gonna lie lol 

 

 

But how about we all put some positive energy and hope they both train hard this summer and actually both be positive assets come October?

 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, DrJockitch said:

Would Eriksson-Beagle-Sutter be the most expensive fourth line in history, at over $14M it may be. 

That would be somewhat embarrassing for Benning.

Then you could run a third of Baerschi/Leivo-Gaudette-Virtanen.  With Goldy as extra forward and Motte in AHL.

Not the worst idea out there.

I was thinking even Miller centering Bear and JV but that could work too.  Yes it would be embarrassing, but it would also be arguably the best in the league, would hold up with most third shutdown lines ... TG must be giddy with all the options he has now...think things will take a few months to gain some traction, depending on how patient he is with his original line combos, injuries and chemistry.    I might start with Miller on the top line...Pearson Horvat Ferland would be a handful... but then again so would swapping Miller and Ferland.   Bear and Goldobin are kind of mysteries as to where they go...one or both could be pumped up just to trade, same with Leivo.  

[DrJockitch]

16 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I was thinking even Miller centering Bear and JV but that could work too.  Yes it would be embarrassing, but it would also be arguably the best in the league, would hold up with most third shutdown lines ... TG must be giddy with all the options he has now...think things will take a few months to gain some traction, depending on how patient he is with his original line combos, injuries and chemistry.    I might start with Miller on the top line...Pearson Horvat Ferland would be a handful... but then again so would swapping Miller and Ferland.   Bear and Goldobin are kind of mysteries as to where they go...one or both could be pumped up just to trade, same with Leivo.  

No way around it, we need to lose a forward or two.  

I would rather put Miller on wing with Brock and Elias.  He is a very good passer and they are two great shooters.

I agree Bo with Ferland and Pearson has some great potential to wreak havoc, with the big if being if we get the Pearson that played for us not the one who played for LA and Pitts, he was awful.  

If Pearson reverts we have a lot of other options to play on that line in Baer, Leivo, Virt or even if we really want to kill the offence, Sutter.

Ultimately I think we will see Gaudette start in the AHL as Sutter needs to re-establish value.  LE will be with Vancouver, they aren't sending him to Utica and so likely Motte and or Goldy will be sent down/lost.