Arrow 1983 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, DeNiro said: No kidding. I think everyone knows Clarkson will be on LTIR. How this helps them gain money for Marner is a mystery. Dubas should be focusing his energy on dumping salary not picking up dead cap for mid round picks. Just now, Arrow 1983 said: Ltir only works if you are at the top of the cap or within range of the salary being replaced If your cap is 79.5 million and a player making 3 million gets injured you can only go over the cap by 1.0 million 79.5+3 =82.5 82.5-81.5= 1 mill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Just now, DeNiro said: No kidding. I think everyone knows Clarkson will be on LTIR. How this helps them gain money for Marner is a mystery. Dubas should be focusing his energy on dumping salary not picking up dead cap for mid round picks. The only implication of this is a negative one. What @Provost is getting at - that it further limits their in/ability to sign Marner - and sends a strange message to him and his representation. Perhaps that has already gotten 'bad' enough that Dubas doesn't care? Whatever the case, he's shown a horrible ability to negotiate with his young players imo. Being over the cap (a hair) means the Leafs now have only 8 millionish of wiggle room with which to sign Marner before the season starts. So they've backed themselves into even more cap inflexibility - at least that's how I read it - they need to clear cap if they want to resign Marner in the offseason - and they are less able to make any other additions they may have wanted/needed to make in order to upgrade that fairly ugly depth they have. But, but they got a 4th round pick. Prioritiez. What a tire fire he's building. Just when you thought he'd hit his apex of bizarre, he takes it to another level. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salacious Crumb Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, DeNiro said: Why? How does this affect Marner signing? 8 minutes ago, oldnews said: This changes nothing. Marner 'could have' signed on day 1 before this deal. You haven't really 'figured out' anything that anyone else here didn't already understand. Arrow is a contract expert - just ask him. Lol. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Arrow 1983 said: They still have to move salary. This isn’t helping their cause. Someone should hit them with an offer sheet already and end this. They won’t be able to match. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Salacious Crumb said: Arrow is a contract expert - just ask him. Lol. Still hasn’t been able to explain how this helps the Leafs find 11 mil to sign Marner though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 minute ago, DeNiro said: Still hasn’t been able to explain how this helps the Leafs find 11 mil to sign Marner though. Retain 50% on Nylander and trade him to some sucker for a 7th rounder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, DeNiro said: They still have to move salary. This isn’t helping their cause. Someone should hit them with an offer sheet already and end this. They won’t be able to match. That's a good point. The Leafs have a week to match, right. So if Marner is offered in excess of 8ish million, the Leafs won't be able to exceed the cap by that margin. 8.15 million - 285k they are already over = 10% = less than 8 million, approx 7.86. Is this an invitation to offersheet Marner - and for him to sign it? What a backasswards way of handling their cap. They're in cap hell - so they go out and eat an LTIR deal - one they ate Horton for in the 1st place. Are they operating like a bottomfeeder? Be careful what you wish for? Edited July 24, 2019 by oldnews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspie Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, DeNiro said: I’m not getting it. They still have to be cap compliant when the season starts even with the LTIR contracts. How does waiting until day 1 to sign Marner give them an extra 2-3 mil to sign him? I wasn’t referring to 1 day over. I was referring to the Leafs preparing for negotiations to go into the season and signing Marner around the same time as when Nylander did last year and having a prorated cap hit for the 2019-2020 season. They still need to move someone if they want Marner over $10.5mill. Personally, I think he’s getting Matthews money and Leafs have to move Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson to fit him in but we’ll see what they do. Edited July 24, 2019 by Aspie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Aspie said: I wasn’t referring to 1 day over. I was referring to the Leafs preparing for negotiations to go into the season and signing Marner around the same time as when Nylander did last year Well wouldn't that be brilliant. It worked out exceedingly well in the case of Nylander. Talk about outsmarting oneself. 'Let's do that again!' V Dumbass 2.0. Edited July 24, 2019 by oldnews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSacamano Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 This explains it ... I'm assuming he is correct? https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/johnson-explains-how-re-acquiring-clarkson-s-contract-affects-marner~1736257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, SunnyHours said: This explains it ... I'm assuming he is correct? https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/johnson-explains-how-re-acquiring-clarkson-s-contract-affects-marner~1736257 Still not understanding how these contracts allow them 2 million extra like he claims. He also says it helps protect against an offer sheet. I get the two contracts allow them to spend 10.55 now but that’s still not enough to sign him and they’d still be over the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, DeNiro said: I’m not getting it. They still have to be cap compliant when the season starts even with the LTIR contracts. How does waiting until day 1 to sign Marner give them an extra 2-3 mil to sign him? They get an extra 10 plus million. Let me take my poop and have a shower then i will explain in in detail Edited July 24, 2019 by Arrow 1983 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspie Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, DeNiro said: Still not understanding how these contracts allow them 2 million extra like he claims. He also says it helps protect against an offer sheet. I get the two contracts allow them to spend 10.55 now but that’s still not enough to sign him and they’d still be over the cap. Its something to do with Accuring Cap Space. What is the Accruable Cap Space Limit (ACSL)? When a team goes into LTIR, their effective salary cap, or upper limit, is changed. This adjusted upper limit is calculated as a function of the teams cap space and the player’s cap hit. This value is the “accruable cap space limit” (ACSL), and is the first value calculated. Second are the salary and performance bonus relief pools that are later explained below. The accruable cap space limit is the teams new upper limit excluding their LTIR relief pools. If the team operates below the ACSL, they begin to accrue cap space. A team can operate up to the ACSL without using their LTIR relief pools, once they operate above the ACSL, they begin to use their LTIR relief pools. In the majority of cases, a team using LTIR will be using their relief pools. Only in uncommon circumstances does a team operate below their ACSL. The ACSL is only calculated when a team first enters LTIR, if a player is placed on LTIR while another player is already on LTIR, the ACSL is not recalculated. In the event that a team stops using LTIR, their ACSL resets to the default upper limit of the active season, upon reentering LTIR, the ACSL is again recalculated. Two methods can be used to calculate the ACSL: The Basic Equation The basic equation can be used throughout the NHL regular season, and during the off-season: ACSL = Salary cap upper limit - team cap space Example: The 2017-18 upper limit is $75M, a team with a projected cap hit of $74.9M places a player with an AAV of $5M on LTIR: Upper limit = $75M Team cap space = $0.1M ACSL = $75M - $0.1M = $74.9M If the team decides that they do not need to recall a player, and instead reassign a player to the AHL, they would begin to accrue cap space because they are operating below the ACSL. https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Arrow 1983 said: They get an extra 10 plus million. Let me take my poop and have a shower then i will explain in in detail They don’t get an extra 10 million. They simply get to hide those cap hits. Again how are they gaining space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSacamano Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, DeNiro said: Still not understanding how these contracts allow them 2 million extra like he claims. He also says it helps protect against an offer sheet. I get the two contracts allow them to spend 10.55 now but that’s still not enough to sign him and they’d still be over the cap. I can't answer that, I am certainly no expert, but have two thoughts: 1) Mitch Marner has to sign an offer sheet... it certainly seems doubtful to me that he signs anywhere else (just my opinion) 2) Laurence Gilman. Many here are bashing Dubas for this move but Gilman is a cap genius and I'm sure is the brains behind this. I highly doubt they made this move to save $250k of Sparks owed salary. There is strategy here. Bonus thought: I hate this move. It seems like cap circumvention to me. Is it allowed? yes. Is it in the spirit of the CBA? Doubful and I sure hope it's closed in the next one. Highly doubt there will be retroactive penalties though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspie Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 minute ago, SunnyHours said: I can't answer that, I am certainly no expert, but have two thoughts: 1) Mitch Marner has to sign an offer sheet... it certainly seems doubtful to me that he signs anywhere else (just my opinion) 2) Laurence Gilman. Many here are bashing Dubas for this move but Gilman is a cap genius and I'm sure is the brains behind this. I highly doubt they made this move to save $250k of Sparks owed salary. There is strategy here. Bonus thought: I hate this move. It seems like cap circumvention to me. Is it allowed? yes. Is it in the spirit of the CBA? Doubful and I sure hope it's closed in the next one. Highly doubt there will be retroactive penalties though. I can definitely see this being a talking point as the GM meeting next season if they’ve found a way to artificially boost their cap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18W-40C-6W Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Silver Ghost said: The league needs to investigate the situation if Marner magically attends training camp but doesnt sign until the first day of the season. Thats what they are going to do i bet. I think they can be over the cap till the first day of the season no? So he can still come to camp and the leafs not be subverting anything. But I am assuming and could stand corrected on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow 1983 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, DeNiro said: They don’t get an extra 10 million. They simply get to hide those cap hits. Again how are they gaining space? A club must be cap compliant on the 1st day of the season with all their players accounting towards the cap. This includes those that teams expect to place on ltir. HORTON COULD NOT BE PLACED ON LTIR because they where at the time before this trade below the max cap and out of range of Hortons Salary. Then comes this trade which actually right now they sit above the cap. But after a roster move, moving a guy to the Ahl they will be pretty much at max cap. Then on day 1 of season start they place them on Ltir and sign Marner, There by replace their salaries. The assumptions being made before was that Horton was LTIR eligible but he wasn't until they got to the max cap or in range of a portion of his replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18W-40C-6W Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, Arrow 1983 said: They get an extra 10 plus million. Let me take my poop and have a shower then i will explain in in detail They don’t really get an “extra 10 mil” that’s useable on players. The two players they are taking cap hits for can’t play. If they were health they’d be getting no cap relief. I know what you’re saying but it’s not like they have an extra 10 mil player on their team AND marner. It’s still a stupid loophole but it’s allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18W-40C-6W Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Arrow 1983 said: A club must be cap compliant on the 1st day of the season with all their players accounting towards the cap. This includes those that teams expect to place on ltir. HORTON COULD NOT BE PLACED ON LTIR because they where at the time before this trade below the max cap and out of range of Hortons Salary. Then comes this trade which actually right now they sit above the cap. But after a roster move, moving a guy to the Ahl they will be pretty much at max cap. Then on day 1 of season start they place them on Ltir and sign Marner, There by replace their salaries. The assumptions being made before was that Horton was LTIR eligible but he wasn't until they got to the max cap or in range of a portion of his replacement. Cap compliant on the first day of the season would mean they can sign marner now and be over until opening night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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