Ristolainen Not Happy in Buffalo.

[Sbriggs]

5 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

I've been saying all along that the best partner for Risto on the Canucks is Edler.  It's a pointless discussion though.  Myers' contract and Lu's cap recapture ate up any funds that would have been available to sign him and I don't see the Sabres eating half his salary unless the return is heavily lopsided in their favour.

No I don't think so we can make it work. Loose Tanev somewhere add Sutter suatner and Goldy for Risto. Thas a fair deal gives them what they need #2 or #3 center with a up and cominf defenseman and throw Goldy in as a sweetner

[SabreFan1]

5 hours ago, aGENT said:

In any theoretical BUF-VAN trade, we'd be sending cap back. And Risto's under contract for 3 more seasons. The cap wouldn't be an issue.

 

Again, not that BUF can't and likely won't do better (something like Ehlers for Risto +/-) but if VAN were to send something like Sutter + Virtanen and a '+', the cap would largely be a wash.

 

Again, I doubt that happens and again BUF can likely do 'better' with a single, higher value player in return (though perhaps not, as BUF is lacking much leverage) but the cap is certainly not remotely the stumbling block here.

The Sabres played the evening the cap hit with the Blues and that didn't work out for them.  They're not going down that road a 2nd time if they are smart.  So yes, the cap on both sides is definitely a big issue.

[SabreFan1]

5 hours ago, theo5789 said:

We will see what the price will be. I can't see Buffalo hanging onto him until the trade deadline simply because of playing time and they don't need someone that doesn't want to be there affecting them all season. Can Buffalo afford another poor year with a distraction? I guess it depends on how much Risto wants out, but now that he's made his stance publicly, it probably won't bode well to hang onto him simply to try and squeeze out more value if possible.

It's the second time he's made it public.  The first time didn't get him traded any quicker.

 

Yes, the Sabres can keep him on the roster until the TDL even if he's unhappy.   They aren't even in contention for a playoff spot and everyone in the locker room knows it's just business.  The only thing that would make the situation untenable would be if the fanbase turned on Risto and started to boo him.  At that point the Sabres would have to take the best offer on the table.

[SabreFan1]

5 hours ago, theo5789 said:

It's certainly wishful thinking (a pipe dream) to move out LE for a Ristolainen type deal. But Miller and Montour are actual defensive players? Maybe marginally better in comparison to Risto, but those guys were not played in the same role as Risto did. Johannson isn't exactly a defensive add either, but better than Skinner I suppose.

My point was that the Sabres picked up players that weren't as bad as Risto is in their own end.  They make intelligent plays and don't just rack up points because they are constantly on the ice and the law of averages is with them.  One of the reasons Risto gets decent point totals is because of his ice time.  It's also part of the reason why his +/- is so terrible.

[GhostsOf1994]

3 hours ago, Sbriggs said:

Sorry I agree with your pairings as well, they won't want Tanev but we can loose him somewhere else replace him with Sutter because they have a need for #2 and #3 center right now

Yar you are right(y) about Tanev to buffalo( bogosian,miller,montour as rhd.

 

Eichel, Mittlestadt and Sutter as top 3 C is better.

 

I thought mittlestadt was Buf #2 C ?

 

I see now he's only played 83 NHL games for 30pts, hopefully for the sabres he makes a big jump next season.

 

Derp mixed up Mittlestadt and Reinhart, damn Deutsch sir names

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

Oh I'm sure the conversation was just taken out of context from the translation from different languages, like the Eriksson one was..... I'm sure everything will be just fine........

[SabreFan1]

20 minutes ago, Sbriggs said:

No I don't think so we can make it work. Loose Tanev somewhere add Sutter suatner and Goldy for Risto. Thas a fair deal gives them what they need #2 or #3 center with a up and cominf defenseman and throw Goldy in as a sweetner

If that's all it took to get Botterill to bite, Ristolainen would be a Canuck right now instead of Myers.  If rumours are true both JB and Botterill had extensive talks about trading for Risto.  I'm sure they went through multiple options before talks ended with a "no".

[SabreFan1]

4 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Oh I'm sure the conversation was just taken out of context from the translation from different languages, like the Eriksson one was..... I'm sure everything will be just fine........

No, he's been losing in Buffalo for 6 straight years now.  I'm willing to bet that he wants out asap... 

 

He and his agent also saw the writing on the wall with the new defensive signings.  He was/is about to be marginalized and that would hurt his future value.  Him wanting to go is good business for both himself and the Sabres.

 

*edit*  You were being sarcastic, weren't you...

Edited August 13, 2019 by SabreFan1

[theo5789]

13 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

It's the second time he's made it public.  The first time didn't get him traded any quicker.

 

Yes, the Sabres can keep him on the roster until the TDL even if he's unhappy.   They aren't even in contention for a playoff spot and everyone in the locker room knows it's just business.  The only thing that would make the situation untenable would be if the fanbase turned on Risto and started to boo him.  At that point the Sabres would have to take the best offer on the table.

Well if Risto is bringing it up again and nothing continues to happen, then he would surely escalate. I imagine Risto wants to be out before the season starts. What is Buffalo going to do with Risto, Montour, Miller and Bogosian until the TDL barring an injury? It's going to create a bit of unhealthy competition in this case in that if they keep Risto, they will likely have to keep playing him to the point his value doesn't drop. Then they move him, but someone will be bumped out hurting their depth. When a player wants out, it's hard to get real value for them, so generally it's best to get out of it the best you can while you're ahead.

[theo5789]

13 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

My point was that the Sabres picked up players that weren't as bad as Risto is in their own end.  They make intelligent plays and don't just rack up points because they are constantly on the ice and the law of averages is with them.  One of the reasons Risto gets decent point totals is because of his ice time.  It's also part of the reason why his +/- is so terrible.

We will see when a trade is played out how he fares with a new team. I think it's more situational than simply he's poor defensively. We will also see if Risto gets dealt, how whoever takes over handles those minutes. When the team is bad and you're the go-to defender, it's always going to be an uphill battle to pad the +/- stats. Someone like Doughty last season was also a -30. Do people really think he's a poor defender?

 

Edler got top minutes and top PP time and aside from this past season upping his PPG, he wasn't simply getting points from the ice time. I don't think Risto is a high end offensive dman, but I think he's very capable to put up the decent stats that he does.

[SabreFan1]

5 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Well if Risto is bringing it up again and nothing continues to happen, then he would surely escalate. I imagine Risto wants to be out before the season starts. What is Buffalo going to do with Risto, Montour, Miller and Bogosian until the TDL barring an injury? It's going to create a bit of unhealthy competition in this case in that if they keep Risto, they will likely have to keep playing him to the point his value doesn't drop. Then they move him, but someone will be bumped out hurting their depth. When a player wants out, it's hard to get real value for them, so generally it's best to get out of it the best you can while you're ahead.

The Sabres want to trade him and he wants to be traded.  They just aren't in a hurry to take whatever offer is thrown at them.

 

What will happen is that he'll go from being the top D-man to a sheltered role on the middle pairing in order to up his stats and trade value.  It would be unfortunate because he would basically be bumping Jokiharju down into the AHL as a result.

 

The trade will eventually happen, but the Sabres can afford to wait, especially Botterill.  Botterill can't afford 2 high profile trade flubs in a row without risking his job.  His reputation already took a hit with the ROR trade.

[SabreFan1]

7 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

We will see when a trade is played out how he fares with a new team. I think it's more situational than simply he's poor defensively. We will also see if Risto gets dealt, how whoever takes over handles those minutes. When the team is bad and you're the go-to defender, it's always going to be an uphill battle to pad the +/- stats. Someone like Doughty last season was also a -30. Do people really think he's a poor defender?

 

Edler got top minutes and top PP time and aside from this past season upping his PPG, he wasn't simply getting points from the ice time. I don't think Risto is a high end offensive dman, but I think he's very capable to put up the decent stats that he does.

I've never knocked him over his +/-.  That's as much a result of crappy teams backed by lousy goaltenders as it is his poor defensive play.

 

There's a reason why analytics guys have never liked him though.  So wherever he goes, he's most likely going to be sheltered at first until the coaches figure out what they have.  That's likely what would happen in Vancouver.  I'd be willing to bet that the coaches would velcro him to Edler for most of the season.

[Sbriggs]

39 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

If that's all it took to get Botterill to bite, Ristolainen would be a Canuck right now instead of Myers.  If rumours are true both JB and Botterill had extensive talks about trading for Risto.  I'm sure they went through multiple options before talks ended with a "no".

Things are different now, the crunch is coming and Buf needs a center and we would like Risto. Time for a new deal

[SabreFan1]

Just now, Sbriggs said:

Things are different now, the crunch is coming and Buf needs a center and we would like Risto. Time for a new deal

Tell JB to get back on the phone with Botterill.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

1 hour ago, SabreFan1 said:

No, he's been losing in Buffalo for 6 straight years now.  I'm willing to bet that he wants out asap... 

 

He and his agent also saw the writing on the wall with the new defensive signings.  He was/is about to be marginalized and that would hurt his future value.  Him wanting to go is good business for both himself and the Sabres.

 

*edit*  You were being sarcastic, weren't you...

Indeed I was 

[King Heffy]

9 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Oddly enough, I feel like Edler would be a very good partner for a guy like Risto (think Ehrhoff and how he performed here despite being atrocious with his +/-). Edler would have to redefine his game a bit to be more of a defensive dman, but with the speed of the game, he might just have to do so anyway to extend his career.

 

It would leave Myers with Hughes in which I'm not a huge fan of, but maybe it works if Myers also shifts his game to a more defensive minded focus. Benn and Stecher would be a very stable pairing though.

 

In a structure like Buffalo has had the last few years, I can see why someone like Risto would be exposed. I can see the Canucks shifting towards playing the 5 man unit supporting both ends. Risto will still have his errors, but I don't think it'll be as glaring here. We really need that offensive support for our defense as we don't have the highest powered offense that some teams do have.

I still think we'd be better off to keep a solid defensive defenseman over introducing yet another defensive liability.  It didn't work out with Weber, Larsen, or Pouliot.  Going forward, let's make sure all of our defensemen are capable of actually playing defense.  Better to ice guys who are NHL quality in their own end rather than try to hide them.

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, King Heffy said:

I still think we'd be better off to keep a solid defensive defenseman over introducing yet another defensive liability.  It didn't work out with Weber, Larsen, or Pouliot.  Going forward, let's make sure all of our defensemen are capable of actually playing defense.  Better to ice guys who are NHL quality in their own end rather than try to hide them.

Risto is no where near the level of those mentioned.

[King Heffy]

38 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Risto is no where near the level of those mentioned.

His defense is pretty damn close.

[theo5789]

5 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

The Sabres want to trade him and he wants to be traded.  They just aren't in a hurry to take whatever offer is thrown at them.

 

What will happen is that he'll go from being the top D-man to a sheltered role on the middle pairing in order to up his stats and trade value.  It would be unfortunate because he would basically be bumping Jokiharju down into the AHL as a result.

 

The trade will eventually happen, but the Sabres can afford to wait, especially Botterill.  Botterill can't afford 2 high profile trade flubs in a row without risking his job.  His reputation already took a hit with the ROR trade.

If they bump his minutes down and he's as bad as suggested, then that only makes him look worse because you're suggesting his offense is reflective of his TOI. Would he be anymore tradable or hold the value they would like if he's a 30 point -15 dman instead?

 

I don't think they really flubbed the O'Reilly trade, just hindsight making it look worse. O'Reilly just wasn't fitting there for whatever reason (similarly to Risto IMO) and he wasn't really playing to a level of a 7.5 million dollar player and he had 5 more years left and I believe he wanted out. Sobotka was a good 3rd liner in St Louis and Berglund was a decent 2nd/3rd line center, but that didn't play out well. Thompson is a promising prospect and for half of the season the 1st looked like a surefire top 5 pick. No one would've predicted St Louis would win the Cup and have O'Reilly be a key cog to it. There's also a 2nd still to look forward to as well.

 

Perhaps Botterill could've looked for a single player of higher value rather than get a bunch of pieces, but there were a lot of holes on the team that needed to be filled.

 

 

4 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

I've never knocked him over his +/-.  That's as much a result of crappy teams backed by lousy goaltenders as it is his poor defensive play.

 

There's a reason why analytics guys have never liked him though.  So wherever he goes, he's most likely going to be sheltered at first until the coaches figure out what they have.  That's likely what would happen in Vancouver.  I'd be willing to bet that the coaches would velcro him to Edler for most of the season.

If partnered with Edler, I doubt that's really "sheltering". That would essentially be a top pairing role. Partnering with Edler is simply a good balance IMO. I think if he's traded to a better team, then it show the analytics of an individual is impacted by the team in support.

 

I imagine teams are making offers based on the view of poor defensive play while Botterill wants top pairing dman value and that's why a deal hasn't been made yet. I guess it's going to come down to who's willing to budge first.

[SabreFan1]

14 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

If they bump his minutes down and he's as bad as suggested, then that only makes him look worse because you're suggesting his offense is reflective of his TOI. Would he be anymore tradable or hold the value they would like if he's a 30 point -15 dman instead?

Bumping his minutes down a few minutes per game would hurt his offensive output but if they sheltered him on the middle line with a decent 2-way d-man, they'd bump up his analytic numbers which I think is one of the sticking points with some teams.

 

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I don't think they really flubbed the O'Reilly trade, just hindsight making it look worse. O'Reilly just wasn't fitting there for whatever reason (similarly to Risto IMO) and he wasn't really playing to a level of a 7.5 million dollar player and he had 5 more years left and I believe he wanted out. Sobotka was a good 3rd liner in St Louis and Berglund was a decent 2nd/3rd line center, but that didn't play out well. Thompson is a promising prospect and for half of the season the 1st looked like a surefire top 5 pick. No one would've predicted St Louis would win the Cup and have O'Reilly be a key cog to it. There's also a 2nd still to look forward to as well.

I've listened to and read local and national commentators talk about how lopsided a trade that was.  I had hopes for it after it happened, but they were dashed after both Sobotka and Berglund busted.  Fortunately Berglund sabotaged himself after a couple of months and the Sabres were able to terminate his contract w/o penalty.  Tage is inconsistent so far, but I'm hoping that changes.  I'm looking forward in a couple of years to seeing the d-man the Sabres got with their 1st round pick.  Hopefully Botterill will turn their 2020 2nd rounder into a serviceable mid 6'er during this season at some point.

 

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Perhaps Botterill could've looked for a single player of higher value rather than get a bunch of pieces, but there were a lot of holes on the team that needed to be filled.

I imagine he took what he thought was the best deal offered at the time regardless of how many players were offered.  Unfortunately it turned out poorly.

 

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If partnered with Edler, I doubt that's really "sheltering". That would essentially be a top pairing role. Partnering with Edler is simply a good balance IMO. I think if he's traded to a better team, then it show the analytics of an individual is impacted by the team in support.

I'm not the only person on CDC who believes he'd be best off "sheltered" with Edler.  Risto isn't a true #1 d-man.  The Sabres had no choice but to use him as one until they drafted Dahlin.  After winning that lottery, the writing was on the wall for Ristolainen in Buffalo.

 

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I imagine teams are making offers based on the view of poor defensive play while Botterill wants top pairing dman value and that's why a deal hasn't been made yet. I guess it's going to come down to who's willing to budge first.

I'd think that Botterill has a price in mind and so far has no reason to budge off of it.  Risto is under contract for 3 more seasons and the fans haven't yet turned on him.  He'll likely be gone before the season begins, but if he isn't they'll hold onto him until a contending team gets desperate because of injuries and are willing to pay the price.