Ristolainen Not Happy in Buffalo.

[theo5789]

18 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Bumping his minutes down a few minutes per game would hurt his offensive output but if they sheltered him on the middle line with a decent 2-way d-man, they'd bump up his analytic numbers which I think is one of the sticking points with some teams.

But who would that be? He's been partnered with pretty much everyone except Dahlin already. So it comes down to lowering his minutes and we will see how that plays out as he's playing with the same partners as last season.

 

18 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

I've listened to and read local and national commentators talk about how lopsided a trade that was.  I had hopes for it after it happened, but they were dashed after both Sobotka and Berglund busted.  Fortunately Berglund sabotaged himself after a couple of months and the Sabres were able to terminate his contract w/o penalty.  Tage is inconsistent so far, but I'm hoping that changes.  I'm looking forward in a couple of years to seeing the d-man the Sabres got with their 1st round pick.  Hopefully Botterill will turn their 2020 2nd rounder into a serviceable mid 6'er during this season at some point.

Did they say it was lopsided when the trade was made? Like I said, at the time of the deal for me, it looked reasonable to try and fill several needs and add depth. Hindsight right now looks like a blow out, but there's still some to play out. Thompson is only 21 and there's the draft picks.

 

If a middle 6er is what Buffalo needs, we do have a few of those.

 

18 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

I'm not the only person on CDC who believes he'd be best off "sheltered" with Edler.  Risto isn't a true #1 d-man.  The Sabres had no choice but to use him as one until they drafted Dahlin.  After winning that lottery, the writing was on the wall for Ristolainen in Buffalo.

I agree that Risto isn't a #1 dman, but my point is playing with Edler wouldn't be sheltering him because he would be playing "top pairing" minutes against the top competition likely if so. Edler is a stronger partner than Risto has ever played with, but he would still be facing some of the toughest minutes. My definition of "sheltering" would be partnering him with Benn and playing around 16-18 minutes a night.

 

18 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

I'd think that Botterill has a price in mind and so far has no reason to budge off of it.  Risto is under contract for 3 more seasons and the fans haven't yet turned on him.  He'll likely be gone before the season begins, but if he isn't they'll hold onto him until a contending team gets desperate because of injuries and are willing to pay the price.

How do you project their defense group with Risto still on the team? That is where I think they do need to budge. They'd be holding a player they fully intend to move and pushing someone into a less favourable position or bumping a guy out which may cause unnecessary friction being healthy scratched. Having a guy that you have all intentions of trading will only be a distraction and moving him out sooner may have a Duchene like effect where the team seemed to excel after he left. Of course the return there looks more favourable, but players on that team already seemed to find another level, especially MacKinnon. It could be addition by subtraction and getting your pairings in order from the get go. Unless Buffalo is writing off next season already, which I can't see being a favourable decision amongst the players.

[aGENT]

18 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

The Sabres played the evening the cap hit with the Blues and that didn't work out for them.  They're not going down that road a 2nd time if they are smart.  So yes, the cap on both sides is definitely a big issue.

Most trades that are player(s) for player(s) have cap going both ways... and generally speaking, pretty similar cap give or take. So unless you're suggesting they move Risto purely for futures (which wouldn't seem congruent with the 'start to compete' mantra)...

[SabreFan1]

11 hours ago, theo5789 said:

But who would that be? He's been partnered with pretty much everyone except Dahlin already. So it comes down to lowering his minutes and we will see how that plays out as he's playing with the same partners as last season.

Good question.  They'd have to temporarily alter another player's style in order to accomplish that, but would that work all the way to the tdl.

 

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Did they say it was lopsided when the trade was made? Like I said, at the time of the deal for me, it looked reasonable to try and fill several needs and add depth. Hindsight right now looks like a blow out, but there's still some to play out. Thompson is only 21 and there's the draft picks.

The reviews were mixed and slightly tilted towards the Blues.  It boils down to pro sports are on a performance based curve and Botterill failed that trade no matter the reason.
 

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I agree that Risto isn't a #1 dman, but my point is playing with Edler wouldn't be sheltering him because he would be playing "top pairing" minutes against the top competition likely if so. Edler is a stronger partner than Risto has ever played with, but he would still be facing some of the toughest minutes. My definition of "sheltering" would be partnering him with Benn and playing around 16-18 minutes a night.

I'd wonder if Green would drop Edler and Risto into the middle pairing for a while and use Risto to QB the PP.

 

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How do you project their defense group with Risto still on the team? That is where I think they do need to budge. They'd be holding a player they fully intend to move and pushing someone into a less favourable position or bumping a guy out which may cause unnecessary friction being healthy scratched. Having a guy that you have all intentions of trading will only be a distraction and moving him out sooner may have a Duchene like effect where the team seemed to excel after he left. Of course the return there looks more favourable, but players on that team already seemed to find another level, especially MacKinnon. It could be addition by subtraction and getting your pairings in order from the get go. Unless Buffalo is writing off next season already, which I can't see being a favourable decision amongst the players.

Of course getting him out of town before the season starts is preferable.  I think the Sabres are taking a realistic approach to next season in that a step forward would be nice, but expecting the playoffs is a pipe dream.  That's why holding onto Risto is palatable.  Now if Risto starts consistently complaining to the US/Canada press or the fans turn on him, all bets are off.  They'd get rid of him fast to the team with the best offer on the table so he wouldn't become a distraction.

 

By talking to the Finnish press about it twice now, you wonder if he's just honestly answering questions asked or if he's trying to send a message to the Sabres front office that they better move him before the season begins.

[SabreFan1]

51 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Most trades that are player(s) for player(s) have cap going both ways... and generally speaking, pretty similar cap give or take. So unless you're suggesting they move Risto purely for futures (which wouldn't seem congruent with the 'start to compete' mantra)...

I think futures and/or young players is something that Botterill would have to consider.  He has to pay Reinhart after this season and Dahlin the season after that.  Reinhart could go for between 5-7.5 depending on how he does in the first half of this season while talks are going on.  Dahlin could go for up to 12.5 depending how these next 2 seasons pan out.

[aGENT]

23 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

I think futures and/or young players is something that Botterill would have to consider.  He has to pay Reinhart after this season and Dahlin the season after that.  Reinhart could go for between 5-7.5 depending on how he does in the first half of this season while talks are going on.  Dahlin could go for up to 12.5 depending how these next 2 seasons pan out.

Fair enough. But they also have a good amount of cap coming off next summer. Bogosian alone covers Reinhart's raise with $0-$3m to spare depending on his year.

 

Plus maybe they shouldn't have spent $9m on Skinner 

Edited August 14, 2019 by aGENT

[Tortorella's Rant]

Virtanen + for Risto. 

[Provost]

13 minutes ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

Virtanen + for Risto. 

We would have to add, but that is a start.  We would also have to ship out Tanev in another move to make roster and cap space.

[theo5789]

3 minutes ago, Provost said:

We would have to add, but that is a start.  We would also have to ship out Tanev in another move to make roster and cap space.

I just get the feeling that with the way Green talks about Virtanen, he would be the one guy that he would protect (of the potential available players) if he were to be asked by Benning. Green seems to think there's a lot of potential there as he's mentioned him specifically in terms of the team going to another level should he improve as hoped and seems to have put in a lot of time with him. If it was a straight swap, I'd do it, but I wouldn't add much more.

[Provost]

9 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I just get the feeling that with the way Green talks about Virtanen, he would be the one guy that he would protect (of the potential available players) if he were to be asked by Benning. Green seems to think there's a lot of potential there as he's mentioned him specifically in terms of the team going to another level should he improve as hoped and seems to have put in a lot of time with him. If it was a straight swap, I'd do it, but I wouldn't add much more.

I don't disagree... they seem to have fallen in love with the player he probably won't ever become (at least here... he probably needs a couple stops to "get it")

 

[SabreFan1]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Fair enough. But they also have a good amount of cap coming off next summer. Bogosian alone covers Reinhart's raise with $0-$3m to spare depending on his year.

 

Plus maybe they shouldn't have spent $9m on Skinner 

Sure they have lots of cap coming off, but I'm not yet sure which players will be re-signed.  I think this year is a pivotal year for some of those guys especially Bogo.  He can't afford to lose much time this season to injury like he has in the past.

 

Skinner was worth 7-7.5 million, but the Sabres had no choice to pay the premium and Skinner's agent knew it.  I'm more concerned with the term than the salary.  They're going to end up having to trade him mid-way through it at the back end of his prime years.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, SabreFan1 said:

Good question.  They'd have to temporarily alter another player's style in order to accomplish that, but would that work all the way to the tdl.

It might hurt the team dynamics too much for the sake of trying to squeeze out more from a deal. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet for the team's sake. Unless they're getting only lowball offers, then I would understand waiting.

 

1 hour ago, SabreFan1 said:

The reviews were mixed and slightly tilted towards the Blues.  It boils down to pro sports are on a performance based curve and Botterill failed that trade no matter the reason.
 

It's certainly hasn't looked good after the fact, but I think it's a bit harsh to say Botterill "failed". There is something wrong in the room there, so who knows if any trade really would've worked. Another coach fired would suggest management is blaming the coaching for the failure and not necessarily the players. We will see if management is right here. Unfortunately for the Sabres, this is an example of why you don't want to be in a losing culture too long as it's hard to get out of it.

 

1 hour ago, SabreFan1 said:

I'd wonder if Green would drop Edler and Risto into the middle pairing for a while and use Risto to QB the PP.

Doubtful. Who would step up to take on the hard minutes? Edler is experienced taking on the tough assignments. If Risto is playing with Edler, he's playing the tough assignments, but I'm not that concerned about it because I think Ristolainen is better than his showings in Buffalo. I personally expect a O'Reilly-like turnaround on a better team.

 

1 hour ago, SabreFan1 said:

Of course getting him out of town before the season starts is preferable.  I think the Sabres are taking a realistic approach to next season in that a step forward would be nice, but expecting the playoffs is a pipe dream.  That's why holding onto Risto is palatable.  Now if Risto starts consistently complaining to the US/Canada press or the fans turn on him, all bets are off.  They'd get rid of him fast to the team with the best offer on the table so he wouldn't become a distraction.

 

By talking to the Finnish press about it twice now, you wonder if he's just honestly answering questions asked or if he's trying to send a message to the Sabres front office that they better move him before the season begins.

At some point, it's going to hit the fan. It gets frustrating for a player who has said they want out and they don't get moved. Erik Karlsson may have stayed in Ottawa had they moved Hoffman earlier, but they waited either hoping they would reconcile or looking for the right deal, where it got to the point that EK demanded out. So I guess we will see how far they want to push it.

[SabreFan1]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

It might hurt the team dynamics too much for the sake of trying to squeeze out more from a deal. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet for the team's sake. Unless they're getting only lowball offers, then I would understand waiting.

I definitely agree it's a delicate balancing act at this point.  The saving grace is that nobody expects the Sabres to contend this season.  If they have a quick start like last season though, Risto may get traded away for magic beans for the sake of the locker room.

 

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It's certainly hasn't looked good after the fact, but I think it's a bit harsh to say Botterill "failed". There is something wrong in the room there, so who knows if any trade really would've worked. Another coach fired would suggest management is blaming the coaching for the failure and not necessarily the players. We will see if management is right here. Unfortunately for the Sabres, this is an example of why you don't want to be in a losing culture too long as it's hard to get out of it.

I absolutely believe he failed with that trade.  Like I said before, it's a performance based business and he failed to perform in that instance.  Could the trade look better in 2-3 years if big Tage Thompson lives up to his potential and the d-man they got with the first pans out as well as whatever they fetch with the 2nd rounder?  Sure it absolutely could, but for now it's a failure.

 

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Doubtful. Who would step up to take on the hard minutes? Edler is experienced taking on the tough assignments. If Risto is playing with Edler, he's playing the tough assignments, but I'm not that concerned about it because I think Ristolainen is better than his showings in Buffalo. I personally expect a O'Reilly-like turnaround on a better team.

The Canucks would have to bite the bullet and hope Markstrom continues to perform if they did as I suggest and developed him on the 2nd pairing with Edler.

 

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At some point, it's going to hit the fan. It gets frustrating for a player who has said they want out and they don't get moved. Erik Karlsson may have stayed in Ottawa had they moved Hoffman earlier, but they waited either hoping they would reconcile or looking for the right deal, where it got to the point that EK demanded out. So I guess we will see how far they want to push it.

Risto is pretty quiet.  I think his demands once he got here would hit the press through his agent.  He has to be careful what he wishes for though.  Edmonton is as likely a trading destination as anywhere especially if the Sabres are offered and take on Pool Party who is himself looking to get out of Edmonton.

[theo5789]

25 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

I definitely agree it's a delicate balancing act at this point.  The saving grace is that nobody expects the Sabres to contend this season.  If they have a quick start like last season though, Risto may get traded away for magic beans for the sake of the locker room.

They need to go into the season with the mindset that they're striving for the playoffs. If they're hanging onto a guy and bleeding minutes to him and affecting the lineup, that's a message to the group saying who cares about this year, we will figure it out later. Buffalo really needs to get out of this mindset from the get-go. There is a reason why guys like O'Reilly and Risto want out because it doesn't seem genuine to them that they are a serious team. It'll be tough to demonstrate to the fanbase if they're off to a quick start that dumping Risto will be the best idea, so it could turn sour quicker for the GM should the team also get turned around from the shakeup despite a decent start to the season.

 

25 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

I absolutely believe he failed with that trade.  Like I said before, it's a performance based business and he failed to perform in that instance.  Could the trade look better in 2-3 years if big Tage Thompson lives up to his potential and the d-man they got with the first pans out as well as whatever they fetch with the 2nd rounder?  Sure it absolutely could, but for now it's a failure.

You can look at it now as a failure, but I just think a lot still needs to be played out to make it definitive. Aside from maybe those prospects panning out, Berglund saved the team a bunch of cap which was also one of the reasons for moving O'Reilly as well in the first place and also there's going to be the factor if O'Reilly is going to remain consistent or this was just a one off season. He could very well go back to his 55-60 point days and while that's still productive, it's not quite for the salary paid. Although winning that Cup likely makes anything else that happens now worth it for St. Louis.

 

25 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

The Canucks would have to bite the bullet and hope Markstrom continues to perform if they did as I suggest and developed him on the 2nd pairing with Edler.

Who would become the top pairing? Hughes - Myers? Myers is not a top pairing dman IMO, but solid top 4. Hughes may step up offensively, but I doubt he's ready for the hard matchups just yet, if ever. Edler and whoever his partner will be will get the brunt of the time.

 

25 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Risto is pretty quiet.  I think his demands once he got here would hit the press through his agent.  He has to be careful what he wishes for though.  Edmonton is as likely a trading destination as anywhere especially if the Sabres are offered and take on Pool Party who is himself looking to get out of Edmonton.

Edmonton would have to send some cap back/out to make it work. If a player with his resume is enough of a main return, then surely a better deal could be made with Vancouver. Would Buffalo want a guy that could do the same thing to them as he's doing to the Oilers? He still needs to be officially signed. I think a deal for Ehlers may just be the best option for Buffalo, but I'm not certain that helps out Buffalo enough to get another smallish forward. It's just very hard to get a read on what Botterill is looking for in a deal here.

[SabreFan1]

2 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

They need to go into the season with the mindset that they're striving for the playoffs. If they're hanging onto a guy and bleeding minutes to him and affecting the lineup, that's a message to the group saying who cares about this year, we will figure it out later. Buffalo really needs to get out of this mindset from the get-go. There is a reason why guys like O'Reilly and Risto want out because it doesn't seem genuine to them that they are a serious team. It'll be tough to demonstrate to the fanbase if they're off to a quick start that dumping Risto will be the best idea, so it could turn sour quicker for the GM should the team also get turned around from the shakeup despite a decent start to the season.

 

You can look at it now as a failure, but I just think a lot still needs to be played out to make it definitive. Aside from maybe those prospects panning out, Berglund saved the team a bunch of cap which was also one of the reasons for moving O'Reilly as well in the first place and also there's going to be the factor if O'Reilly is going to remain consistent or this was just a one off season. He could very well go back to his 55-60 point days and while that's still productive, it's not quite for the salary paid. Although winning that Cup likely makes anything else that happens now worth it for St. Louis.

 

Who would become the top pairing? Hughes - Myers? Myers is not a top pairing dman IMO, but solid top 4. Hughes may step up offensively, but I doubt he's ready for the hard matchups just yet, if ever. Edler and whoever his partner will be will get the brunt of the time.

 

Edmonton would have to send some cap back/out to make it work. If a player with his resume is enough of a main return, then surely a better deal could be made with Vancouver. Would Buffalo want a guy that could do the same thing to them as he's doing to the Oilers? He still needs to be officially signed. I think a deal for Ehlers may just be the best option for Buffalo, but I'm not certain that helps out Buffalo enough to get another smallish forward. It's just very hard to get a read on what Botterill is looking for in a deal here.

I'll respond back as soon as I can.  I'm busy in another thread.

[SabreFan1]

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They need to go into the season with the mindset that they're striving for the playoffs. If they're hanging onto a guy and bleeding minutes to him and affecting the lineup, that's a message to the group saying who cares about this year, we will figure it out later. Buffalo really needs to get out of this mindset from the get-go. There is a reason why guys like O'Reilly and Risto want out because it doesn't seem genuine to them that they are a serious team. It'll be tough to demonstrate to the fanbase if they're off to a quick start that dumping Risto will be the best idea, so it could turn sour quicker for the GM should the team also get turned around from the shakeup despite a decent start to the season.

You're not wrong, but that's why I think Botterill has a delicate balancing act to perform.  As for trading Risto mid-season if they are winning, it all depends on how he's doing and what the return is as to how the other players and fans react.

 

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You can look at it now as a failure, but I just think a lot still needs to be played out to make it definitive. Aside from maybe those prospects panning out, Berglund saved the team a bunch of cap which was also one of the reasons for moving O'Reilly as well in the first place and also there's going to be the factor if O'Reilly is going to remain consistent or this was just a one off season. He could very well go back to his 55-60 point days and while that's still productive, it's not quite for the salary paid. Although winning that Cup likely makes anything else that happens now worth it for St. Louis.

Berglund having his feelings hurt by St. Louis and going loony was a stroke of luck that helped make a bad trade slightly less bad.

 

The best the Sabres can hope for now is the long term payoff if everything goes their way with the picks and Thompson.

 

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Who would become the top pairing? Hughes - Myers? Myers is not a top pairing dman IMO, but solid top 4. Hughes may step up offensively, but I doubt he's ready for the hard matchups just yet, if ever. Edler and whoever his partner will be will get the brunt of the time.

That's where the biting the bullet part I mentioned comes in.  If the Canucks want to reshape him for the long term they would have to lower Ristos minutes no matter where they put him regardless.  Others disagree with me, but as he is now, I don't think he's a quality top pairing d-man.

 

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Edmonton would have to send some cap back/out to make it work. If a player with his resume is enough of a main return, then surely a better deal could be made with Vancouver. Would Buffalo want a guy that could do the same thing to them as he's doing to the Oilers? He still needs to be officially signed. I think a deal for Ehlers may just be the best option for Buffalo, but I'm not certain that helps out Buffalo enough to get another smallish forward. It's just very hard to get a read on what Botterill is looking for in a deal here.

 

Bolded part for sure.  We could guess at this until the cows come home.  The fact of the matter is that nobody knows what Botterill wants and what has been offered so far.

 

@theo5789

Edited August 14, 2019 by SabreFan1

[Standing_Tall#37]

On 8/13/2019 at 12:54 PM, theo5789 said:

Only if that + is Eriksson.

Why would they take 2 of our failures for 1 guy entering his prime, that has played in the nhl? 

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

Why would they take 2 of our failures for 1 guy entering his prime, that has played in the nhl? 

If OJ is a failure, why would Buffalo want him?

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

That's where the biting the bullet part I mentioned comes in.  If the Canucks want to reshape him for the long term they would have to lower Ristos minutes no matter where they put him regardless.  Others disagree with me, but as he is now, I don't think he's a quality top pairing d-man.

 

@theo5789

Hard to say until he's had a more legit partner. As I mentioned before, Ehrhoff was very questionable defensively until paired with Edler. Taken away from Edler, back to the same old. I think with the Canucks current defense on paper, Edler and Risto could take on top duties 5 on 5, but maybe have Edler Benn (can play both sides) and Stecher take on more of the PK duties. Maybe don't even have Risto PK regularly and let Myers take on more of it but give Risto top PP time with Hughes. This would lower both total minutes for Edler and Risto to have them still be "top pairing" but manage their minutes more. I actually see a lot of Edler in Risto's game.

[SabreFan1]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

Hard to say until he's had a more legit partner. As I mentioned before, Ehrhoff was very questionable defensively until paired with Edler. Taken away from Edler, back to the same old. I think with the Canucks current defense on paper, Edler and Risto could take on top duties 5 on 5, but maybe have Edler Benn (can play both sides) and Stecher take on more of the PK duties. Maybe don't even have Risto PK regularly and let Myers take on more of it but give Risto top PP time with Hughes. This would lower both total minutes for Edler and Risto to have them still be "top pairing" but manage their minutes more. I actually see a lot of Edler in Risto's game.

You're high.  Cut your intake by half.

[SabreFan1]

2 hours ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

Why would they take 2 of our failures for 1 guy entering his prime, that has played in the nhl? 

The Sabres wouldn't even take Eriksson for free.  Only a team trying to get to the cap floor would even consider it and even then they'd want multiple futures to do it.

 

The Canucks can't afford to part with anybody it would take to get Risto.  If they could JB and Botterill would have already made the trade weeks ago when they were in talks. 

 

There are just some people that don't want to connect those very obvious dots.