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[Report] Marner's Agent in Contact with Zurich Lions of the Swiss League


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3 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

While the team (TO) was doing well, they were also in a great window.  Matthews and Marner were still on ELC, Marleau was still playing good and it was the perfect time to take advantage that last year of cap freedom.  In the end Nylander did get overpaid but really not by much, I'd say his value is closer to 6.25 million, so really he's only getting a 700k overpayment which isn't that bad on a normal roster.  It becomes more noticeable when you are trying to pay out big contracts to 3 other guys, I think he gets moved next summer but I also thinks he's quite underrated on these board in the two full seasons Nylander played he's out produced Marner in even strength points and did that while receiving 132 less ozone starts.  I'm not saying he's better than marner, who plays a better all around game just that I don't think Nylander is the albatross people love to make him out to be.

Nylander is an albatross because he's a lazy floater who refuses to backcheck and plays scared in the playoffs.  He hurts the team even when he's producing offensively, but his contract is an absolute monstrosity when he can't even score.  Babcock should have thrown his selfish rear end in the press box until he decided to put in an acceptable effort last year, but his hands were likely tied due to his idiot of a boss.  You don't win championships with spoiled babies like Nylander who don't care about winning  Dumbass hould have moved that bum when he still had positive value.

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3 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Dubas should've looked at the long term (even short term of 3 years) and he wouldn't have gotten himself in this mess. What did he really expect to happen? They had a nice window, but they closed it fairly quickly at this point. Marner shouldn't be the guy they dicked around. If Nylander wanted to play hard ball, let him sit in Europe for a year, maybe he signs the following year much cheaper.

I agree I would have made him sit the season or I’d actually probably would have been looking hard at dealing him from a steady right shot D. 

 

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Toronto wasn't flying already. If Matthews only wanted 5 years, no way they should've paid him 11.6 million or whatever he got.

 

I actually don’t think Matthews’ is that bad. The bar was pre set with Leon, McDavid and eichel.  He was going to get paid.

 

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Could've traded him for a ransom to bolster the lineup overall (see Lindros type trade) and built a real team.

 

I don’t think that was a realistic option. You don’t trade a superstar elite player. That would be like canucks trading petey. Matthews is their best player and it’s not really close. You don’t move them. 

 

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Nylander doesn't look as overpaid in today's market, but he is indeed an albatross in their current situation.

Hopefully for him and them that he actually at least reverts back to his 60 point days. 

 

I think he will this season. He’s still a really good hockey player. But I think that as soon as he builds his trade value up, he will be moved out. Leafs need that cap for D. 

 

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I agree that this is JB's first real test because of the market, but JB has dealt with his RFAs very well, so I don't think he's going to go nuts here.

 

Yeah I think we will be ok.  But we will see how who caves first, what benning has in his corner is the our limited cap room. 

 

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Of course there are other examples of this mess, but Toronto had the prime opportunity with Nylander to correct the situation and not continue it with Matthews. It's frustrating that actual decent GMs are being screwed by the few morons in the league.

I also think UFA’s have been hurting this league. 12 players are making 10 mill+. Heck McDavid makes up 16.7% of his teams cap hit. I would love to see the next CBA look at this and limit that to 12%, 20% max is ridiculous. 12 would allow some GM’s make some savvy deals to build really elite teams. Players would chose where to plays more based on competitiveness and less about chasing the $. 

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1 hour ago, King Heffy said:

Nylander is an albatross because he's a lazy floater who refuses to backcheck and plays scared in the playoffs.  He hurts the team even when he's producing offensively, but his contract is an absolute monstrosity when he can't even score.  Babcock should have thrown his selfish rear end in the press box until he decided to put in an acceptable effort last year, but his hands were likely tied due to his idiot of a boss.  You don't win championships with spoiled babies like Nylander who don't care about winning  Dumbass hould have moved that bum when he still had positive value.

The amount you go on about how much you dislike him is very reminiscent of 6 years old on the play ground. You’re not fooling anyone anymore, it’s quite clear you have a crush on him and are trying to suppress it. Easy tiger. 

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2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I agree I would have made him sit the season or I’d actually probably would have been looking hard at dealing him from a steady right shot D. 

Rumours were that they were trying to get a RHD, most of the smoke was with Carolina, but a deal never happened and Dubas claimed he would never trade him :rolleyes: At that point, he should've let him rot.

 

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I actually don’t think Matthews’ is that bad. The bar was pre set with Leon, McDavid and eichel.  He was going to get paid.

Draisaitl got inflated because of McDavid. McDavid is actually one of the best in the game right now and the Oilers needed to lock him in. At the end of the day 12.5 for 8 years for arguably the best in the game makes Matthews' 11.6 for 5 years who isn't even the best on his team look like an absolute joke. Would he have wanted McDavid dollars or more if he went the full 8 years? Eichel's was terrible, very undeserving, but at least he signed an 8 year deal committing the majority of his career with them. Everything about Matthews' deal screams grab the money and run.

 

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I don’t think that was a realistic option. You don’t trade a superstar elite player. That would be like canucks trading petey. Matthews is their best player and it’s not really close. You don’t move them. 

 

It's certainly not a common scenario, but you have to plan for your team's future. I disagree that Matthews is their best player (although it's arguable in some sense), but Toronto has Tavares. We don't have someone like that to allow the possibility of trading someone like EP. I don't get the sense that Matthews is all that committed to Toronto, don't have that same feeling about Petey but we will see. I agree you try to keep your best players, but you also don't cripple yourself hanging onto them. Toronto is missing some key pieces and Matthews alone could've bolstered many of them from assets gained and cap space. Without his contract, Marner may not be so difficult to have re-signed at this point.

 

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I think he will this season. He’s still a really good hockey player. But I think that as soon as he builds his trade value up, he will be moved out. Leafs need that cap for D. 

I agree that it can really only go up for Nylander at this point. I don't think he's a bad player, but the whole situation has put him in a bad light. If they do end up trading him, Dubas will have gone against his word and that's only going to reflect more on how players will continue to trust him or not.

 

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Yeah I think we will be ok.  But we will see how who caves first, what benning has in his corner is the our limited cap room. 

I really don't think anyone is going to be "caving" here. They'll come to agreement on a deal that makes sense for both sides hopefully. I think it's fair that BB is looking for decent value (if it's even him that's agreeing to this rather than just his agent), but JB has always paid what the players' value is today rather than what it may be. It really comes down to term and contract structure that will be interesting.

 

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I also think UFA’s have been hurting this league. 12 players are making 10 mill+. Heck McDavid makes up 16.7% of his teams cap hit. I would love to see the next CBA look at this and limit that to 12%, 20% max is ridiculous. 12 would allow some GM’s make some savvy deals to build really elite teams. Players would chose where to plays more based on competitiveness and less about chasing the $. 

UFA demands are crazy, but that's the right they've earned. UFAs have the advantage of a bidding war and the freedom to choose where they want to go. RFAs shouldn't be having this power to garner "UFA" value. I believe Crosby signed a large portion of the cap when he had his extension and it worked out for them. Over time the cap went up lessening the damage. I don't think McDavid is the type of player/leader like a Crosby, but there's something wrong in Edmonton that goes beyond McDavid's control and that just magnifies McDavid's deal. I honestly never thought McDavid had an overpaid contract.

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8 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Rumours were that they were trying to get a RHD, most of the smoke was with Carolina, but a deal never happened and Dubas claimed he would never trade him :rolleyes: At that point, he should've let him rot.

 

It makes sense. It’s what that roster needs. 

 

8 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Draisaitl got inflated because of McDavid. McDavid is actually one of the best in the game right now and the Oilers needed to lock him in. At the end of the day 12.5 for 8 years for arguably the best in the game makes Matthews' 11.6 for 5 years who isn't even the best on his team look like an absolute joke.

 

I think your underrating matthews by a long shot. He put up the same p/gp as Tavares with linemates like Hyman and kapanen. Meanwhile Tavares gots marner and marleau. He’s easily the best player on his team and is a true generational talent. If the NHL today had a fantasy draft out of players to build around Matthews would be in the top 5. Id almost argue top 3 behind McDavid and mackinnon. 

 

8 hours ago, theo5789 said:

 

Would he have wanted McDavid dollars or more if he went the full 8 years? Eichel's was terrible, very undeserving, but at least he signed an 8 year deal committing the majority of his career with them. Everything about Matthews' deal screams grab the money and run.

 

See i don’t see it at all that way. Matthews is there superstar. He was there biggest priority to locking up and he’s the last player the leafs wanted to be in a marner/Nylander situation.  Matthews will be the leafs next captain.  Matthews only has one full season under his belt so it makes more sense for him to take a shorter contract, bet on himself and hit a massive home run as his enters his prime, as he hit UFA power. He’s going to maximize his total NHL take home. It’s likely the same line of thinking Brock is going through right now. 

 

 

8 hours ago, theo5789 said:

It's certainly not a common scenario, but you have to plan for your team's future. I disagree that Matthews is their best player (although it's arguable in some sense), but Toronto has Tavares. We don't have someone like that to allow the possibility of trading someone like EP.

Matthews is Toronto’s future. 

 

8 hours ago, theo5789 said:

I don't get the sense that Matthews is all that committed to Toronto, don't have that same feeling about Petey but we will see. I agree you try to keep your best players, but you also don't cripple yourself hanging onto them. Toronto is missing some key pieces and Matthews alone could've bolstered many of them from assets gained and cap space. Without his contract, Marner may not be so difficult to have re-signed at this point.

 

A key to winning is a really strong 1-2 punch down the middle.  They have that with Tavares and Matthews.

 

8 hours ago, theo5789 said:

I agree that it can really only go up for Nylander at this point. I don't think he's a bad player, but the whole situation has put him in a bad light. If they do end up trading him, Dubas will have gone against his word and that's only going to reflect more on how players will continue to trust him or not.

He will have too. He’s the lowest on the chopping block among the top 4. Reilly and andersson are getting raises in 2-3 years.  And it’s not like Nylander really cares, if he did want to be a leaf for life, he wouldn’t have threaten to hold out and miss an entire season over 3 million. 

 

 

8 hours ago, theo5789 said:

I really don't think anyone is going to be "caving" here. They'll come to agreement on a deal that makes sense for both sides hopefully. I think it's fair that BB is looking for decent value (if it's even him that's agreeing to this rather than just his agent), but JB has always paid what the players' value is today rather than what it may be. It really comes down to term and contract structure that will be interesting.

 

UFA demands are crazy, but that's the right they've earned. UFAs have the advantage of a bidding war and the freedom to choose where they want to go. RFAs shouldn't be having this power to garner "UFA" value. I believe Crosby signed a large portion of the cap when he had his extension and it worked out for them. Over time the cap went up lessening the damage. I don't think McDavid is the type of player/leader like a Crosby, but there's something wrong in Edmonton that goes beyond McDavid's control and that just magnifies McDavid's deal. I honestly never thought McDavid had an overpaid contract.

RFA are looking around and noticing that they are often better players than the guys getting big contracts as UFA thus deserve as much or more even though they don’t have the same bargaining power. They only tool they have is offer sheets and holding out. This year it’s really setting in. I would say those big overpriced UFA signings play just as big of part in inflating RFA contracts. Teams fall into the UFA trap and overpay all the time and it becomes this compounding snow ball of players asking for more and more. 

 

 

I hate to say it but JB is part of this overall issue.  in order to entice players enough he throws out another $ or and extra year in term. Beagle, Roussel, Sutter (was a RFA), and Myers are all making 500k-1 mill too much. We’re still seeing the effects of that gagner signing.  You start to add that up and finding space to signing Brock isn’t even a question any more. And I didn’t even include LE’s $6 million hit.  And that’s not to pick on JB because every team does it. Flames with Neal, frolik...., oilers with lucic,sekera....UFA gets teams into trouble and pressured GM’s handing out over priced UFA contracts plays a major role in inflating all contracts. 

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37 minutes ago, BabychStache said:

This is getting out of hand, great PR posturing for the league leading up to the next CBA.

 

I don’t think the leafs anticipated Marner would be their leading scorer and team MVP. Good problem to have I suppose. 

Regardless, Mathews, an RFA, should never have gotten such a ridiculous contract.

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4 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

It makes sense. It’s what that roster needs. 

Agreed.

 

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I think your underrating matthews by a long shot. He put up the same p/gp as Tavares with linemates like Hyman and kapanen. Meanwhile Tavares gots marner and marleau. He’s easily the best player on his team and is a true generational talent. If the NHL today had a fantasy draft out of players to build around Matthews would be in the top 5. Id almost argue top 3 behind McDavid and mackinnon. 

I thought Matthews had Marleau and Kapanen flanking him most of the year until having Nylander and Johnsson put on his line near the end of the year. Marner developed chemistry with Tavares that he didn't in his time before Tavares' arrival. To be clear, I think Matthews is a great player, but I don't think he should've been paid what he got for 5 years. I can understand the price tag on an 8 year deal.

 

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See i don’t see it at all that way. Matthews is there superstar. He was there biggest priority to locking up and he’s the last player the leafs wanted to be in a marner/Nylander situation.  Matthews will be the leafs next captain.  Matthews only has one full season under his belt so it makes more sense for him to take a shorter contract, bet on himself and hit a massive home run as his enters his prime, as he hit UFA power. He’s going to maximize his total NHL take home. It’s likely the same line of thinking Brock is going through right now. 

 

 

Matthews is Toronto’s future. 

 

 

A key to winning is a really strong 1-2 punch down the middle.  They have that with Tavares and Matthews.

Before Tavares I would agree that the focus should've been on Matthews. Tavares is the next 8 years now and I don't know if Matthews makes it past 5, so we will see who's the future. I get your justification for the 5 years, but then then the dollar value is too high.he shouldn't be getting UFA value as an RFA.

 

I guess we have very differing views on how loyal Matthews is to Toronto, so we will see how that plays out.

 

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He will have too. He’s the lowest on the chopping block among the top 4. Reilly and andersson are getting raises in 2-3 years.  And it’s not like Nylander really cares, if he did want to be a leaf for life, he wouldn’t have threaten to hold out and miss an entire season over 3 million. 

It's Dubas' word fwiw. I believe Nylander really did want to be a Leaf because he wanted assurances that he wouldn't be dealt after signing the deal. Dubas' reputation on his own team might be tarnished if he was dealt.

 

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RFA are looking around and noticing that they are often better players than the guys getting big contracts as UFA thus deserve as much or more even though they don’t have the same bargaining power. They only tool they have is offer sheets and holding out. This year it’s really setting in. I would say those big overpriced UFA signings play just as big of part in inflating RFA contracts. Teams fall into the UFA trap and overpay all the time and it becomes this compounding snow ball of players asking for more and more. 

 

 

I hate to say it but JB is part of this overall issue.  in order to entice players enough he throws out another $ or and extra year in term. Beagle, Roussel, Sutter (was a RFA), and Myers are all making 500k-1 mill too much. We’re still seeing the effects of that gagner signing.  You start to add that up and finding space to signing Brock isn’t even a question any more. And I didn’t even include LE’s $6 million hit.  And that’s not to pick on JB because every team does it. Flames with Neal, frolik...., oilers with lucic,sekera....UFA gets teams into trouble and pressured GM’s handing out over priced UFA contracts plays a major role in inflating all contracts. 

RFAs should never be compared to UFAs. Bottom line is UFAs have put in their time and now have the freedom to choose destination or money. UFAs get overpaid because that's the benefit of making it that far in the league. Now I get that RFAs want to be paid because they happen to be the top players on the team, but they still shouldn't be getting "UFA value" simply because there's a bargaining war involved and teams simply have to do what it takes to get their target player which are not rights that go with a RFA. Someone like Tavares may really only be worth 9 million in actual value, but the bidding war inflated it. There's no way Panarin is worth his current contract value for example. So why do RFAs get a piece of this pie? Take a fair contract (bridge or what not) and get yourself to UFA if that's your intention, which is what Matthews did. But how did Matthews get more money than Tavares on a shorter term? It's may be arguable of who is better over time, but Tavares put in his time on a reasonable contract and put himself in the position for his payout and still it cost less money over longer term to bring in the most prized UFA over an RFA that has no negotiating power?

 

The system is indeed broken, but the RFA market hasn't been that influenced by the UFA market. It took a few poor deals and agents sets them as the benchmark. GMs simply need to use their bargaining power and let them sit if they choose to play that card. I just don't think Dubas has it in him to do so with him caving twice in poor fashion. Agents are waiting for him to cave again. Unfortunately it affects the rest of the league. I love Brock, but I hope JB stands pat and sticks to his guns as he has done with his RFAs so far.

 

I don't think Brandon Sutter was an RFA when we extended him. He was a pending UFA.

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37 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I guess we have very differing views on how loyal Matthews is to Toronto, so we will see how that plays out.

 

Yeah we will see. I’m really high on him. I think he’ll be a leaf for a long time but also make a bucket load of cash. 

 

37 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

It's Dubas' word fwiw. I believe Nylander really did want to be a Leaf because he wanted assurances that he wouldn't be dealt after signing the deal. Dubas' reputation on his own team might be tarnished if he was dealt.

He wouldn’t be the first GM to change his mind. I think players would quickly forget if the trade helped the team get better and make a longer post season run. I don’t know if there are too many people feeling sympathy or are in Nylander court. 

 

37 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

RFAs should never be compared to UFAs. Bottom line is UFAs have put in their time and now have the freedom to choose destination or money. UFAs get overpaid because that's the benefit of making it that far in the league. Now I get that RFAs want to be paid because they happen to be the top players on the team, but they still shouldn't be getting "UFA value" simply because there's a bargaining war involved and teams simply have to do what it takes to get their target player which are not rights that go with a RFA. Someone like Tavares may really only be worth 9 million in actual value, but the bidding war inflated it. There's no way Panarin is worth his current contract value for example. So why do RFAs get a piece of this pie? Take a fair contract (bridge or what not) and get yourself to UFA if that's your intention, which is what Matthews did. But how did Matthews get more money than Tavares on a shorter term? It's may be arguable of who is better over time, but Tavares put in his time on a reasonable contract and put himself in the position for his payout and still it cost less money over longer term to bring in the most prized UFA over an RFA that has no negotiating power?

While I agree, they shouldn’t be getting… You can understand why.  No one wants to look at there coworkers and see them getting paid more for doing less regardless of their signing situation.  Earning those rights or not really doesn’t matter when you are considering value.  The cap is fix, which changes things, there’s only so much of the pie to go around and players rightfully want their fair piece.   I don’t think anyone on Canucks roster cares that Eriksson was signed as a UFA and thus over inflated.  They see a piece of their pie being wasted.   While we talk about the team culture and precedent having that much of your cap being wasted and preventing your team from getting better it’s easy to have the me first mentality.  If you want to win everyone has to live up to their own share.  You can’t over pay the vets just because and expect the most critical pieces less just because.  UFA’s play a big roll on RFA’s, maybe not exact dollars but it sets the number in the ball park.

 

 

37 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

The system is indeed broken, but the RFA market hasn't been that influenced by the UFA market. It took a few poor deals and agents sets them as the benchmark. GMs simply need to use their bargaining power and let them sit if they choose to play that card. I just don't think Dubas has it in him to do so with him caving twice in poor fashion. Agents are waiting for him to cave again. Unfortunately it affects the rest of the league. I love Brock, but I hope JB stands pat and sticks to his guns as he has done with his RFAs so far.

 

I hope JB does too but he and Dubas also have a max cap on there side. Neither of them can afford to over pay either player without going over the cap. Brock maxes out at 7.1ish before we have to trade someone so that’s his limit. We just have to figure out the term that fits. 

 

37 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I don't think Brandon Sutter was an RFA when we extended him. He was a pending UFA.

Yep you are right. 

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5 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

 

Yeah we will see. I’m really high on him. I think he’ll be a leaf for a long time but also make a bucket load of cash. 

I agree with the 2nd part, but I think he jumps ship to an American team as soon as he can.

 

5 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

He wouldn’t be the first GM to change his mind. I think players would quickly forget if the trade helped the team get better and make a longer post season run. I don’t know if there are too many people feeling sympathy or are in Nylander court. 

Depends if they're close to Nylander or not. When a GM says one thing especially publically, even if the players try to look past, the media and fans will constantly remind them. I don't disagree that it's a move that he likely would have to make, but they will still have 33 million dollars on 3 players. Not sure if they dump Nylander's full cap if it's still enough to cover the cost of the raises plus retaining a decent team still at this point.

 

5 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

While I agree, they shouldn’t be getting… You can understand why.  No one wants to look at there coworkers and see them getting paid more for doing less regardless of their signing situation.  Earning those rights or not really doesn’t matter when you are considering value.  The cap is fix, which changes things, there’s only so much of the pie to go around and players rightfully want their fair piece.   I don’t think anyone on Canucks roster cares that Eriksson was signed as a UFA and thus over inflated.  They see a piece of their pie being wasted.   While we talk about the team culture and precedent having that much of your cap being wasted and preventing your team from getting better it’s easy to have the me first mentality.  If you want to win everyone has to live up to their own share.  You can’t over pay the vets just because and expect the most critical pieces less just because.  UFA’s play a big roll on RFA’s, maybe not exact dollars but it sets the number in the ball park.

 

And they need to understand those co-workers put in the time to get where they are. They have every right to ask what they feel they deserve, but they have no bargaining power. They can play in a different league and earn far less than the measly millions they'd be getting on a bridge. GMs rather try and protect their jobs now and if it doesn't work, it'll be someone else's problem.

 

I'm not saying RFAs shouldn't get paid, but they need to realize UFA value is not equivalent to actual value. Most UFAs get overpaid and it's because they can be acquired through nothing but trying to win the bidding war. Some look bad and some work out. Matthews for example is not much better than Tavares and without the resume. Why does he deserve more money than a guy that was in a bidding war? Tavares' actual value may have been closer to 9 million and that's around where Matthews and Marner should have signed (especially Matthews considering the term). They're still getting paid very well, but not at the UFA market value. This would also save the team nearly 5 million in cap space to have a better window. 

 

5 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

I hope JB does too but he and Dubas also have a max cap on there side. Neither of them can afford to over pay either player without going over the cap. Brock maxes out at 7.1ish before we have to trade someone so that’s his limit. We just have to figure out the term that fits. 

Well Dubas is well over the cap. Not sure how he's going to make it work before the season starts, but if it's LTIR related, then it's gotta work the same for us to give us more room to work with.

 

5 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Yep you are right. 

Nice to hear once in a while :)

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4 hours ago, theo5789 said:

I wonder if there were any season tickets sold with the prospect that Marner would play with them.

He wasn't going to play with them just train with them - there's the risk of injury.  The season is already underway - not sure they even had a spot open for him.  In the Swiss league there's a limit on players with foreign licences for each team so they might not want to use one on a player that is there only temporarily.  Athanasiou went to train in Switzerland as he waited for Detroit but was not a roster player.  Nylander trained also with teams in Austria and Sweden.

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