Tweaking Roster - Goldobin or Leivo Out?

[mpt]

Both will be claimed on waivers by someone.  I wouldn’t be surprised if a trade happens, I also wouldn’t be surprised if Benning lets everyone battle it out at training camp and waives the ones not worthy of a spot.  I’m ok with either.

[BigTramFan]

9 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Let's make a deal...

 

Need a 2 for 1, or 3 for 2(NHL'ers) to trim it down somewhat.

 

Van: Loui the lump, Tim(bit) Schaller

 

OTT: Bobby Ryan(retain 750k x 3), Chlapik(another ELC C for Comets)

 

Melnyk saves about 4 or 5 mill, in straight bucks. Adds another vet, to keep more youth in AHL.

In that vein...

 

Maybe JB can swing a deal with Dallas? They are looking to contend now with the acquisitions of Pavelski and Perry. Why not help them out by taking two dead weight contracts off their hands and trading two better players to them?

 

To VAN:

Hanzal

Cogliano

 

To DAL:

Eriksson

Leivo

 

Comparison:

Players- LE+JL vs MH+AC

Goals in 18/19- 25 vs 7

Points in 18/19- 53 vs 12

Cap hit- $7.5 vs $8.0

Salary remaining- $10.5 vs $10.5

 

Why for DAL?

As mentioned they are looking to contend. LE and JL are huge upgrades on Cogliano and Hanzal at this stage of their careers. Hanzal will be on LTIR next season in the last year of his contract, and Cogliano will be on their fourth line for the next 2 years. With this trade DAL can put Leivo onto 2LW with Hintz and Pavelski. Eriksson can be 3LW with Faksa and Perry. Together they have similar cap hits (DAL takes on $0.5m more but can afford it as they are $0.9m under cap atm) but they end up with more useful players right now, and a good young player in Leivo as a future asset.

 

Why for VAN?

Clearing out the LE contract. We will pay the same amount of salary but will be rid of the MH and AC contracts within 2 seasons, meaning that come 2021 we will have space to resign Petey and QH. Hanzal can be placed onto LTIR for next season meaning that VAN will have plenty of cap space. Cogliano can play 4LW until Roussel returns from LTIR, and then be our 13th forward. He also provides center depth. We lose Leivo but he is not very high on our depth chart, likely 13th forward next season once Roussel returns.

 

Why for the players?

AC has a 6 team no trade list. I doubt VAN is on that.

 

MH has a modified no trade clause but he is on LTIR so he won’t care who pays for the last $4m of his contract.

 

LE would welcome a move back to DAL where he has spent a considerable amount of time and where they are in contending mode.

[Captain Canuck #12]

37 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

In that vein...

 

Maybe JB can swing a deal with Dallas? They are looking to contend now with the acquisitions of Pavelski and Perry. Why not help them out by taking two dead weight contracts off their hands and trading two better players to them?

 

To VAN:

Hanzal

Cogliano

 

To DAL:

Eriksson

Leivo

 

Comparison:

Players- LE+JL vs MH+AC

Goals in 18/19- 25 vs 7

Points in 18/19- 53 vs 12

Cap hit- $7.5 vs $8.0

Salary remaining- $10.5 vs $10.5

 

Why for DAL?

As mentioned they are looking to contend. LE and JL are huge upgrades on Cogliano and Hanzal at this stage of their careers. Hanzal will be on LTIR next season in the last year of his contract, and Cogliano will be on their fourth line for the next 2 years. With this trade DAL can put Leivo onto 2LW with Hintz and Pavelski. Eriksson can be 3LW with Faksa and Perry. Together they have similar cap hits (DAL takes on $0.5m more but can afford it as they are $0.9m under cap atm) but they end up with more useful players right now, and a good young player in Leivo as a future asset.

 

Why for VAN?

Clearing out the LE contract. We will pay the same amount of salary but will be rid of the MH and AC contracts within 2 seasons, meaning that come 2021 we will have space to resign Petey and QH. Hanzal can be placed onto LTIR for next season meaning that VAN will have plenty of cap space. Cogliano can play 4LW until Roussel returns from LTIR, and then be our 13th forward. He also provides center depth. We lose Leivo but he is not very high on our depth chart, likely 13th forward next season once Roussel returns.

 

Why for the players?

AC has a 6 team no trade list. I doubt VAN is on that.

 

MH has a modified no trade clause but he is on LTIR so he won’t care who pays for the last $4m of his contract.

 

LE would welcome a move back to DAL where he has spent a considerable amount of time and where they are in contending mode.

You didn't see the recent quote from the Stars' owner on this subject?  He has no interest in taking Eriksson back whatsoever.

[mll]

1 hour ago, BigTramFan said:

In that vein...

 

Maybe JB can swing a deal with Dallas? They are looking to contend now with the acquisitions of Pavelski and Perry. Why not help them out by taking two dead weight contracts off their hands and trading two better players to them?

 

To VAN:

Hanzal

Cogliano

 

To DAL:

Eriksson

Leivo

 

Comparison:

Players- LE+JL vs MH+AC

Goals in 18/19- 25 vs 7

Points in 18/19- 53 vs 12

Cap hit- $7.5 vs $8.0

Salary remaining- $10.5 vs $10.5

 

Why for DAL?

As mentioned they are looking to contend. LE and JL are huge upgrades on Cogliano and Hanzal at this stage of their careers. Hanzal will be on LTIR next season in the last year of his contract, and Cogliano will be on their fourth line for the next 2 years. With this trade DAL can put Leivo onto 2LW with Hintz and Pavelski. Eriksson can be 3LW with Faksa and Perry. Together they have similar cap hits (DAL takes on $0.5m more but can afford it as they are $0.9m under cap atm) but they end up with more useful players right now, and a good young player in Leivo as a future asset.

 

Why for VAN?

Clearing out the LE contract. We will pay the same amount of salary but will be rid of the MH and AC contracts within 2 seasons, meaning that come 2021 we will have space to resign Petey and QH. Hanzal can be placed onto LTIR for next season meaning that VAN will have plenty of cap space. Cogliano can play 4LW until Roussel returns from LTIR, and then be our 13th forward. He also provides center depth. We lose Leivo but he is not very high on our depth chart, likely 13th forward next season once Roussel returns.

 

Why for the players?

AC has a 6 team no trade list. I doubt VAN is on that.

 

MH has a modified no trade clause but he is on LTIR so he won’t care who pays for the last $4m of his contract.

 

LE would welcome a move back to DAL where he has spent a considerable amount of time and where they are in contending mode.

 

 

LTIR only allows to exceed the cap up to the amount needed to be cap compliant.  It's not a way to create cap space and it hinders flexibility more than anything else.  Any performance bonuses are more than likely to get carried over to the following season.  It also limits who can get recalled.

The Stars have a bonus overage of over 900K that is counting against their cap this season.   Shapiro got confirmation that it's the performance bonuses for Heiskanen and Hintz.  

 

Stephen Jones did not play a single game last season due to concussion (2.35M cap hit), Hanzal's last game was 23 December (4.75M) and Methot last played on 1 November (4.9M).  That's a combined cap hit of 12M of players who were out long term.  Yet because of the mechanism of LTIR the Stars were not able to absorb those performance bonuses last season and it's counting against their cap this season.  

 

Hughes and Pettersson are bonus eligible and it's well likely that they could hit their targets - at least the schedule A which is 850K per player.  

 

With LTIR the recall cap hit is not just base salary but also any potential performance bonuses.  The Stars were not able to recall Gurianov because of that - see Shapiro below.  Juolevi has potential performance bonuses of 1.45M this season and Gaudette 850K.  If the team uses LTIR it's well possible that they won't be able to get recalled next season. 

Shapiro in the Athletic (paywall): 

The problem is that once you invoke LTIR, cap hits of recalled players are viewed as their full potential annual value – potential bonuses included – rather than their salary-based annual value.

This actually happened last season when the Stars weren’t able to call up Denis Gurianov in one instance with LTIR in use. Gurianov’s cap hit, based on his salary, is $894,166. But the full potential value cap hit was $1,644,166 since he has performance bonuses in his deal. There simply wasn’t enough space to recall the Russian at $1.64 million.

 

Dallas had 12M in potential LTIR money as per above yet they couldn't recall a 1.64M cap hit and also ended up with a bonus overage of 932.5K.

  

Edited August 28, 2019 by mll

[mikeyman109]

14 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Problem is we don't want to be using Meier as a comparable due to the backloading.  That's a horrible contract.

its not a horrible contract its just back loaded which is probably the stalling point on the negotiations. JB doesnt want to have to offer a 7 million dollar qualifying offer for Brock.

[mikeyman109]

12 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

This!

 

And JB has said as much as well! Said so last year. And the year before. And the year Jake was sent back to Utica. Only in McCann & Virtanen's first year did they seem to reserve spots.  That was 6 years ago...

Yes agree and if Goldobin doesnt do that then who drives him to the airport so we can stop talking about him? We have better options now in the top 6. Goldobin is not going to take a bottom 6 role and he is really not valuable there.

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, mikeyman109 said:

its not a horrible contract its just back loaded which is probably the stalling point on the negotiations. JB doesnt want to have to offer a 7 million dollar qualifying offer for Brock.

Yeah, the backloading is the part that makes it horrible.  AAV and term are fine.

[Provost]

The problem is that most teams have too many players right now and aren’t sure if some kids will make it or be sent back to the AHL.

 

Trade market for fringe players would be pretty slim to non-existent.  

 

They probably get picked up on waivers, as another team might see them as upgrades on their fringe players... but not enough to pay for them in trade.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Provost

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Provost said:

The problem is that most teams have too many players right now and aren’t sure if some kids will make it or be sent back to the AHL.

 

Trade market for fringe players would be pretty slim to non-existent.  

 

They probably get picked up on waivers, as another team might see them as upgrades on their fringe players... but not enough to pay for them in trade.

If we lose fringe guys to waivers is that a bad thing?  We get their cap off the books, and it opens another contract spot.  

[Timråfan]

19 hours ago, Alflives said:

Look how competitive Petey is.  No way he wants Loui on the team, when Motte, Leivo, and Goldy are helping the team more.  

Well, Petey talked good about  Loui at the WC... And Petey probably knows the difference between a player that huffs and puffs, producing close to nothing and a smart player like Loui. 

It will be interesting to see if Loui lost his hands as you say all the time. If so, I can give you right. 

 

It's not just me saying that pearson/Bo had benefit with Loui on the line as you might have noticed. 

[Provost]

20 minutes ago, Alflives said:

If we lose fringe guys to waivers is that a bad thing?  We get their cap off the books, and it opens another contract spot.  

Not really a big deal either way.  The guys we lose will have contracts that could be mostly buried probably and depth isn’t bad if it isn’t costing you much cap while sitting in the AHL.

 

Schaller probably gets waived and doesn’t get picked up, that will cost us cap.

 

One or two guys are going to not get roster spots based on the current math... they will get waived.  Shrug.

[Alflives]

34 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Well, Petey talked good about  Loui at the WC... And Petey probably knows the difference between a player that huffs and puffs, producing close to nothing and a smart player like Loui. 

It will be interesting to see if Loui lost his hands as you say all the time. If so, I can give you right. 

 

It's not just me saying that pearson/Bo had benefit with Loui on the line as you might have noticed. 

Petey would never say publicly bad about a teammate or a coach.  In the room though it’s different.  Petey wants to win.  He knows which players give the team the best chance. 

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, mikeyman109 said:

Yes agree and if Goldobin doesnt do that then who drives him to the airport so we can stop talking about him? We have better options now in the top 6. Goldobin is not going to take a bottom 6 role and he is really not valuable there.

I don't disagree.

 

But Goldy wants to play in the NHL.  Has not signed in the KHL. Is willing to win a spot in camp.

 

I do believe he played well enough, has enough underlying talent we should bring him to camp.

 

After that its up to him! 

[poet]

I agree that LE doesn’t deserve Utica. I still think that if Benning packaged him up with Jake there would be a taker. Solve the jammed roster, too...

[mikeyman109]

14 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I don't disagree.

 

But Goldy wants to play in the NHL.  Has not signed in the KHL. Is willing to win a spot in camp.

 

I do believe he played well enough, has enough underlying talent we should bring him to camp.

 

After that its up to him! 

I think he may get another chance to play in the NHL, teams see the potential but not the improvement. Its funny because they talk about Jake not having the hockey smarts, but Goldy hasnt' exactly gotten it either. For a first round pick to be headed to his third organization at 23 it is becoming a long shot that he will become an NHL regular.

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, poet said:

I agree that LE doesn’t deserve Utica. I still think that if Benning packaged him up with Jake there would be a taker. Solve the jammed roster, too...

Maybe.  By far not the worst idea floated around here.  Started this thread knowing that the LE hate would likely come out - hope it’s being a little cathartic.   Don’t expect the CDC will get it out of its system - taking the long view and hoping he comes into training camp with a chip on his shoulder and schools some of the guys competing for his job.  The only way out is through for him.   He has the talent...maybe this year he will display it on a ongoing basis and win the fans back - maybe he won’t. But expecting Leivo or Goldobin to break out IMO is even less likely.  He’s definitely an anchor but at least he plays (Sutter-Edler-Tanev don’t). 

 

Three more years.  UGH.  Would love to see him traded but to do that he needs value otherwise we get back crUd.   He’s not over the hill completely (yet)...and he’s not as terrible as some say on this thread either. 

[mikeyman109]

22 hours ago, IBatch said:

Maybe.  By far not the worst idea floated around here.  Started this thread knowing that the LE hate would likely come out - hope it’s being a little cathartic.   Don’t expect the CDC will get it out of its system - taking the long view and hoping he comes into training camp with a chip on his shoulder and schools some of the guys competing for his job.  The only way out is through for him.   He has the talent...maybe this year he will display it on a ongoing basis and win the fans back - maybe he won’t. But expecting Leivo or Goldobin to break out IMO is even less likely.  He’s definitely an anchor but at least he plays (Sutter-Edler-Tanev don’t). 

 

Three more years.  UGH.  Would love to see him traded but to do that he needs value otherwise we get back crUd.   He’s not over the hill completely (yet)...and he’s not as terrible as some say on this thread either. 

Loui wont be the reason Goldobin makes or doesnt make the team this fall. The only person that is on is Nikolay.

The top 6 competition means you have to bring your best each and every night to get the roster spot. Maybe Pearson is part of that top 6 or maybe not, maybe Baerstchi can take the other spot. It all depends on how they perform in camp.The best part of all of this is we have options for the top 6 for the first time in a long time. Competition makes players better.

I just dont see Goldobin beating out the likes of Baerstchi or Pearson for that top 6 role. Goldys best bet is to have a great camp and hit the 13th forward spot with Loui going to Utica. Bottom six  is not where Goldy plays.

That looks like

Rousell Sutter Leivo

Motte Beagle Virtanen

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, mikeyman109 said:

Loui wont be the reason Goldobin makes or doesnt make the team this fall. The only person that is on is Nikolay.

The top 6 competition means you have to bring your best each and every night to get the roster spot. Maybe Pearson is part of that top 6 or maybe not, maybe Baerstchi can take the other spot. It all depends on how they perform in camp.The best part of all of this is we have options for the top 6 for the first time in a long time. Competition makes players better.

I just dont see Goldobin beating out the likes of Baerstchi or Pearson for that top 6 role. Goldys best bet is to have a great camp and hit the 13th forward spot with Loui going to Utica. Bottom six  is not where Goldy plays.

That looks like

Rousell Sutter Leivo

Motte Beagle Virtanen

Well said.  I agree it’s up to him entirely and it will be an uphill camp.   Both LE and NG have a lot to do to make it into the lineup.   It’s an great thing that we no longer are talking about Megna etc ... JB has created a huge lineup filled with both potential and middle six players - not much different that what Vegas started with - except they don’t have a EP, Boeser or Horvat .. good times ahead for sure..

[mikeyman109]

On 8/28/2019 at 11:19 PM, poet said:

I agree that LE doesn’t deserve Utica. I still think that if Benning packaged him up with Jake there would be a taker. Solve the jammed roster, too...

I don’t know what that means “he doesn’t deserve Utica”. 

Has he played to his potential? 

If a younger player doesn’t play to their potential where do they go? Utica. 

As long as Loui is only doing the little things then he doesn’t deserve to be on the big club regardless of what he is paid. He isn’t playing up to his potential and his lack of effort at times is certainly frustrating for the team and the fans alike. He may not be an AHL regular but he hasn’t played well enough to avoid a Utica assignment. That’s totally on him. 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, mikeyman109 said:

I don’t know what that means “he doesn’t deserve Utica”. 

Has he played to his potential? 

If a younger player doesn’t play to their potential where do they go? Utica. 

As long as Loui is only doing the little things then he doesn’t deserve to be on the big club regardless of what he is paid. He isn’t playing up to his potential and his lack of effort at times is certainly frustrating for the team and the fans alike. He may not be an AHL regular but he hasn’t played well enough to avoid a Utica assignment. That’s totally on him. 

 

This camp should be interesting.   Honestly have no idea what’s going to happen but somethings got to give.  Two guys are getting waived - maybe three if AG makes a statement and earns a spot (maybe waiving Sutter is the way to go and then NG stays and the team changes the structure towards three scoring lines instead?).    All this talk about LE getting the Redden treatment when all Sutter has done with his nearly five million a year is watch from the sidelines.  Who was the fifth leading scorer again - and how much time did he get in the top six ?   Three... more ... years.   Watched this team for a long time.   Yes it’s a ridiculous contract absolutely the worst thing JB has done since he came here.   But I don’t think he’s nearly as bad as people make him out to be - watching NG barely skate at all like he’s Wayne Gretzky and already scored five points go back to the bench after a non- shift (virtually did nothing) for two year was painful.  He has no hustle.  Don’t see LE doing that nearly as often.   He goes out (mostly with chumps) and is is the best player on his shift (in the bottom six) most times.  Why? Because he’s done it all before. What the heck have Leivo and NG done in comparison?  Score a few goals and make a hit or two?  Ha ha .  Dorset was way better then both these guys and he was a career 3-4 th liner.  Nothing would make me happier then to see a bounce back season for LE - again we have him for three more years - he’s done more in this league then anyone else in the lineup and he’s in excellent shape.   Sure he got a few shifts with the almost done Sedins and a few with Horvat at the end of last year (and Pearson turned into a 35 goal scorer) :... personally I think it’s almost delusional to think NG and Leivo should discplace him - both with probably be done in this league before LE finishes his contract.   Just use him - don’t care if it’s on the 4th line or the first - because he adds value compared to who else we Have.

 

Know this isn’t he popular view but statistics back it up - the simple ones (fifth in scoring ) and the advanced ones for the most part too.   I’m not fooled by NG PPG start - he had a lot of help and scored what four points in over twenty games at the end of the season and added squat (ok minus squat) to the team at the same time ... Leivo scores a couple lines below his actual assignments and we should be excited about that?   Thank GOD we have Ferland, Miller, and Pearson now.   Really look at our top scorers last year and compare them to CAL - pathetic really. 

 

Edit:  here I will make it easy:

 

Gaudreau 99

Monahan 82

Lindholm 78

Woodchucker 77

Giordano 74

Backlund 47

Ryan 38

Frolik 34

Brodie 34 (Edler territory)

Hanifin 33

Jankowski 32

Bennet 27 - wow now we made it to our fifth best scorer - or around where LE, NG and JV scored - wonder if CAL is excited about Jankowski as we are about these guys (Pearson, Ferland, JV etc). 

 

Heres our list:

 

EP 66 (he’d be sixth in scoring in CAL)

Horvat 61

Boeser 56

Edler 34

Roussel 31

LE 29 

Pearson 27 

NG 27

JV 25

Leivo 24

 

Should I continue?  

Edited August 30, 2019 by IBatch