[Article] Sutter is not a shutdown centre

[fecklund]

raw footage from Erik$$ons new summer workout routine:
 

 

[IBatch]

37 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Burrows, Kesler, Bieksa, Rome, Lapierre, Torres, Glass, Hansen, Alberts, Higgins.... bunch of gentlemenly victims indeed. Of course AV's matra in that season was discipline... let the other team take the penalties. Who listens to the coach though?

Aside from Bieksa and Glass and maybe Hansen none of those guys would back things up when it got tough and dirty.   The Sedin era at the start had way more grit and toughness then the team that went to the final - not that it matters Thomas made more saves then any goalie ever in a final so that’s history.   The Sedins were tough in the sense that they could take endless abuse and keep on ticking - but 189lbs and whomever he’s talking about,  I believe like me, prefer guys that give as much as they take or more.  Don’t think MG needed to change a thing.  Bad luck of the draw - if TB won we’d have picked them apart in five.   That said a team filled mostly with cream puffs never won anything - glad JB recognizes this and seems to have addressed it to a certain degree (Roussel and Ferland and Benn).  Man it’s weird saying that - those guys used to be average joes as far as toughness goes - it’s just not the same as it used to be.  And NO the Sedins weren’t marshmallows - but they sure weren’t mean either. 

[aqua59]

On 8/30/2019 at 5:05 PM, Ossi Vaananen said:

I don't mean to plug someone else's work but I found this one interesting. The Pass It To Bulis blog looked at some fancy stats regarding Sutter and compared him to other centres league-wide. The article is here: https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/brandon-sutter-is-not-a-shutdown-centre-1.23931634?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

Posted below:

Oof. It hurts to see guys we passed on like Bonino and Richardson performing that much better. It seems Beagle has outperformed Sutter as well. As the article says, maybe cross our fingers and hope that Gaudette is ready for the second half. 

 

For the Too Long Didn't Read crowd: just look at the first chart. Sutter is egregious when it comes scoring against based on frequency of defensive zone starts.

Interesting. I just wonder about this guys durability. It seems like he's turned the corner in his career where if he gets injured slightly and misses a few games will he catch up with the class so to speak?

 

I think sometimes it's not so much how one comes to camp, you gotta be in shape and up to speed. There's no leaway. 

 

If sutter goes out just for a few games he could be cooked as far as catching up. He had visibly lost speed last season before he went down.

 

Give him a chance and see where it goes. 

[kingofsurrey]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

It doesn't change the fact there was toughness on the team. The problem was far too many key injuries. Not mention the laxest reffing I've seen. Frankly I'm impressed they took it to 7 games. I don't really see what they could have adjusted, Thomas set a record for saves in a final series. We out shot them and out hit them in game 7. What really sums the series up is too many injuries and a hot goalie. It had nothing to do with team toughness.

I agree with you.   But it does help when your toughness / power forwards are top 6 and not bottom 6.......

Playoff hockey is a battle of attrition.  Canucks ran out of healthy hard to play against bodies especially with guys playing heavier minutes..

[Baggins]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

Aside from Bieksa and Glass and maybe Hansen none of those guys would back things up when it got tough and dirty.   The Sedin era at the start had way more grit and toughness then the team that went to the final - not that it matters Thomas made more saves then any goalie ever in a final so that’s history.   The Sedins were tough in the sense that they could take endless abuse and keep on ticking - but 189lbs and whomever he’s talking about,  I believe like me, prefer guys that give as much as they take or more.  Don’t think MG needed to change a thing.  Bad luck of the draw - if TB won we’d have picked them apart in five.   That said a team filled mostly with cream puffs never won anything - glad JB recognizes this and seems to have addressed it to a certain degree (Roussel and Ferland and Benn).  Man it’s weird saying that - those guys used to be average joes as far as toughness goes - it’s just not the same as it used to be.  And NO the Sedins weren’t marshmallows - but they sure weren’t mean either. 

Kesler and Higgins would both go if needed but both were playing injured (like so many others) in the final. Really it came down to too many injuries and a hot goalie. It certainly wasn't a "cream puff" team. Even reasonably healthy I believe our team beats any team in the league in a 7 game series that year. Although I honestly hoped Tampa would beat Boston. With all our injuries going into the final I didn't like going against an other heavy team. 

 

I don't see Boeser and Petey mixing it up any more than the Sedins did. Horvat has been in one fight and that was only because Nurse came after him. Kesler certainly had more edge to him than Horvat does. Bieksa and Rome match our D toughness for this season. The only difference I see is Ferland being a upgrade on Burrows. On flip side I don't see anybody as a toughness upgrade on Torres in the bottom six. 

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, Baggins said:

Kesler and Higgins would both go if needed but both were playing injured (like so many others) in the final. Really it came down to too many injuries and a hot goalie. It certainly wasn't a "cream puff" team. Even reasonably healthy I believe our team beats any team in the league in a 7 game series that year. Although I honestly hoped Tampa would beat Boston. With all our injuries going into the final I didn't like going against an other heavy team. 

 

I don't see Boeser and Petey mixing it up any more than the Sedins did. Horvat has been in one fight and that was only because Nurse came after him. Kesler certainly had more edge to him than Horvat does. Bieksa and Rome match our D toughness for this season. The only difference I see is Ferland being a upgrade on Burrows. On flip side I don't see anybody as a toughness upgrade on Torres in the bottom six. 

Didn’t Horvat fight some Predator or something last year too (and lay a beating?) - hey I don’t disagree with any of this (Kesler has some dandies too) - it’s a different NHL now then it used to be which I was somewhat lamenting.   Our peak Sedin team had above-average toughness for the time and even that MG didnt need to change a thing (just because we drew Boston - if TB beat them in game seven instead I’ve always believed the cup would have been ours in five or less). 

 

Also happy that JB recognized that EP could be shutdown and that the line needed a deterrent - enter Ferland - and Miller is no slouch either same with Benn.  It takes a nice balance - and depth both things we seem to have added.  Also think the EP will learn to not let physical play knock him off his game....the same way the Sedins did.

[Baggins]

48 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Didn’t Horvat fight some Predator or something last year too (and lay a beating?) - hey I don’t disagree with any of this (Kesler has some dandies too) - it’s a different NHL now then it used to be which I was somewhat lamenting.   Our peak Sedin team had above-average toughness for the time and even that MG didnt need to change a thing (just because we drew Boston - if TB beat them in game seven instead I’ve always believed the cup would have been ours in five or less). 

 

Also happy that JB recognized that EP could be shutdown and that the line needed a deterrent - enter Ferland - and Miller is no slouch either same with Benn.  It takes a nice balance - and depth both things we seem to have added.  Also think the EP will learn to not let physical play knock him off his game....the same way the Sedins did.

The current team has some toughness it was sorely lacking now. I won't complain about that as it's needed. I don't recall a second Horvat fight (I'm not saying he didn't) but he doesn't have that edge Kesler had. Nor does he throw his weight around the way Kesler did. Something I wish he'd do more. The biggest difference I see in the game itself is phasing out the goons. Really though, for the most part, they just put on a show fighting each other playing minimal minutes rather than being enforcers protecting the stars. There's still tough guys in the league but they can play a regular shift now. 

 

My preference for the top line is Miller. He has that physical side and toughness without causing the scrums that Ferland's style often tends to cause. I'd rather Petey and Boes not being in those constant scrums where things can happen while Ferland is tied up with somebody else. Plus a second line of Pearson/Horvat/Ferland would be a nightmare for opposing players and Pearson/Horvat are better equipped for the scrums Ferland is bound to cause. I know Ferland is the popular choice but I think he'll cause more problems for Petey and Boes after the whistle than he solves.

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

The current team has some toughness it was sorely lacking now. I won't complain about that as it's needed. I don't recall a second Horvat fight (I'm not saying he didn't) but he doesn't have that edge Kesler had. Nor does he throw his weight around the way Kesler did. Something I wish he'd do more. The biggest difference I see in the game itself is phasing out the goons. Really though, for the most part, they just put on a show fighting each other playing minimal minutes rather than being enforcers protecting the stars. There's still tough guys in the league but they can play a regular shift now. 

 

My preference for the top line is Miller. He has that physical side and toughness without causing the scrums that Ferland's style often tends to cause. I'd rather Petey and Boes not being in those constant scrums where things can happen while Ferland is tied up with somebody else. Plus a second line of Pearson/Horvat/Ferland would be a nightmare for opposing players and Pearson/Horvat are better equipped for the scrums Ferland is bound to cause. I know Ferland is the popular choice but I think he'll cause more problems for Petey and Boes after the whistle than he solves.

It took me a while to see the value of putting Ferland on the top line instead of Miller (whom I agree should be playing with them - he’s a better playmaker and equally good along the boards - we should load up the best talent the best we can) - I think Ferland will start on the line and get phased out.  Also like that second line but I’m sure how good he’s on his off wing...and Pearson deserves the spot at least to start given the chemistry developed last year.   Ferland might jump up and down on the third line too..and yes Kesler was a handful compared to Horvat - but I do think he will throw his weight around more with time...Horvats last year was a doozy he punished his opponent (can’t remember who it was but anyone can watch the fight on hockeyfights.com).  Also wonder who will get the L W spots - Bear is in the mix too for the top spot - Ferland-Horvat-Miller would also be a handful.  It’s R W we are thin on - after Boeser it drops off a cliff (unless Miller plays there).   LE and JV also options.  LE got a brief time with Horvat and Pearson and it showed early returns.   Nice that we have to weapons now to make a decent second line PP too.

[Schmautzie]

The reason that I think Ferland will mesh with Pettersson and Boeser is his propensity for driving to the net. This will create time and space for his linemates and should result in great scoring chances. Ferland’s toughness as a deterrent for messing with Petey and Brock is just an added bonus.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Schmautzie

[189lb enforcers?]

19 hours ago, Baggins said:

Burrows, Kesler, Bieksa, Rome, Lapierre, Torres, Glass, Hansen, Alberts, Higgins.... bunch of gentlemenly victims indeed. Of course AV's matra in that season was discipline... let the other team take the penalties. Who listens to the coach though?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EdgarM]

20 hours ago, kingofsurrey said:

I agree with you.   But it does help when your toughness / power forwards are top 6 and not bottom 6.......

Playoff hockey is a battle of attrition.  Canucks ran out of healthy hard to play against bodies especially with guys playing heavier minutes..

This is exactly it. Kessler needed someone to play with and at least one of the Sedins needed to be a big bodied aggressive type player(power forward) in the top 6. All Boston needed to do was rough up the Sedins and key on Kessler and the rest was history. We had no answer to the toughness and this made one of the most boring game sevens I ever witnessed. 

Petey already plays with an edge and is ultra competitive and I guarantee he won't just stand there while someone is punching him in the face. He won't be a bruiser but he will at least stick up for himself. I believe we already have a team that has more "character" and Benning did this on purpose. 

I see Sutter as one of these character players who will help out in the overall make up of the team.

[Dr. Crossbar]

The better the Canucks get, the more desperate and grasping the media will become to be negative. This story is like that Markstrom vs. Koskinen contract article a few weeks ago. 

 

Just watch ... as we get better how much more wild and bizarre the media will get to find negativity with the Canucks.

[kingofsurrey]

3 hours ago, EdgarM said:

This is exactly it. Kessler needed someone to play with and at least one of the Sedins needed to be a big bodied aggressive type player(power forward) in the top 6. All Boston needed to do was rough up the Sedins and key on Kessler and the rest was history. We had no answer to the toughness and this made one of the most boring game sevens I ever witnessed. 

Petey already plays with an edge and is ultra competitive and I guarantee he won't just stand there while someone is punching him in the face. He won't be a bruiser but he will at least stick up for himself. I believe we already have a team that has more "character" and Benning did this on purpose. 

I see Sutter as one of these character players who will help out in the overall make up of the team.

You had me till the last sentence.......      Sutter is tenacious  good skater  but he is not gritty. / sandpaper......  and i know about gritty..... lol

[Baggins]

10 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes a couple of gifs that really show nothing. Henrik and Joe were on their own talking to the ref. What was he supposed to do other pushing Joe's arm away? Or was one of our tough guys supposed to rush over from the bench? Honesty thought the ref should have called an unsportsmanlike penalty on Joe. Daniel was waiting for the call that didn't appear to be coming while everybody else was tied up in scrums. Big deal. I think they hurt your feelings more than Danny and Hank. Honestly could give a rats tush about either of those incidents.

[189lb enforcers?]

The way the Canucks lost in the SCF, then against LA and then against Calgary might not be in those gifs... but we were all there and saw it.

 

It’s the way they lost, outmatched physicality in every case, which disputes your 2011 list, a pinnacle moment for the Canucks era toughness-wise of the past decade, I think.

 

The Canucks lacked an Iginla-type captain all of those years, but instead had the epitome of turn-the-other-cheek gentlemen leaders in the Sedins, which defined this group. Before that it was Nissy. 

 

One-dimensional captains are hopefully a thing of the past. They carry the flag. The Canucks flag stayed in the corner, as seen in the gifs, which are an apt playoff ‘warrior’ representation of the era, IMO.

 

I don't hang the whole of it on the Sedins and their culture. I understand AV never really played his toughness or expressed it on the roster, nor did Twichin’ Willy even have the option to. 

 

We might not be a majority in here by any means, but I’m sure there are several posters in here who are thrilled that the sissy era is over. Since 2011 it’s been one humiliation after another, led by the ‘tough’ Sedins, with last season being almost as bad in a first go of crawling out of the closet for this team’s identity. 

 

This season, win or lose, will be the first since the WCE era to have any semblance of physicality on the top 6 that isn’t a disgrace like Burrows and Kesler were. (Those two circus acts cost this team years of bad press) It will also be the first time since forever that the vets will be able to stick up for the skinny rookies because they will be looking for them; none of this “I didn’t see it” crap. 

 

This is the kind of roster and team I can support, which hasn’t been the case in years. Many others had their fan-way with the kind of team the wanted, now it’s my turn.

 

Several of us in here are happy this day is finally here. For others, the clapping continues, regardless, and unconditionally. To each fan, their own, but this looks to be my year to be a fan again. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by 189lb enforcers?

[Tortorella's Rant]

Sutter is barely a center in general lol

[dpn1]

21 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Watching Daniel get punched like that still makes me feel sick to my stomach.  I just wish Daniel would have just hauled off and wacked him one.

[alt kilgore]

21 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I somewhat share your excitement of a new more physical push back team (in theory)  I never liked the 'take the punches and we'll make them pay on the PP' strategy.  I don't blame the Sedins, it was their style of play. Up to the GM(s) to sign physical support players, and a coach to embrace a physical approach.

 

But of all three examples why use such a snowflake in the first one to point that out?  Mr. I can't fight for my country because of bonespurs. The Sedins were known for their iron man streaks; they may  not have won all their wars but always put in 100%.  Mr. whine and complain about any criticism calling it fake news  At least Henrik stood up and answered questions and accepted criticism when warranted. I get what you are trying to say, but using the biggest snowflake, man-baby with the personality of a bully turtle like Marchand to point that kind of defeats the purpose. Just say ti yourself.

[EdgarM]

2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

The way the Canucks lost in the SCF, then against LA and then against Calgary might not be in those gifs... but we were all there and saw it.

 

It’s the way they lost, outmatched physicality in every case, which disputes your 2011 list, a pinnacle moment for the Canucks era toughness-wise of the past decade, I think.

 

The Canucks lacked an Iginla-type captain all of those years, but instead had the epitome of turn-the-other-cheek gentlemen leaders in the Sedins, which defined this group. Before that it was Nissy. 

 

One-dimensional captains are hopefully a thing of the past. They carry the flag. The Canucks flag stayed in the corner, as seen in the gifs, which are an apt playoff ‘warrior’ representation of the era, IMO.

 

I don't hang the whole of it on the Sedins and their culture. I understand AV never really played his toughness or expressed it on the roster, nor did Twichin’ Willy even have the option to. 

 

We might not be a majority in here by any means, but I’m sure there are several posters in here who are thrilled that the sissy era is over. Since 2011 it’s been one humiliation after another, led by the ‘tough’ Sedins, with last season being almost as bad in a first go of crawling out of the closet for this team’s identity. 

 

This season, win or lose, will be the first since the WCE era to have any semblance of physicality on the top 6 that isn’t a disgrace like Burrows and Kesler were. (Those two circus acts cost this team years of bad press) It will also be the first time since forever that the vets will be able to stick up for the skinny rookies because they will be looking for them; none of this “I didn’t see it” crap. 

 

This is the kind of roster and team I can support, which hasn’t been the case in years. Many others had their fan-way with the kind of team the wanted, now it’s my turn.

 

Several of us in here are happy this day is finally here. For others, the clapping continues, regardless, and unconditionally. To each fan, their own, but this looks to be my year to be a fan again. 

I couldn't have said it any better very well put. I would have stood behind these guys Win/Lose or draw if they went down fighting like they did in 94'. I agree, I liked Burrows and Kessler's tenacity but biting(literally) and scratching is not the way to do it. 

You go in their like a  TEAM of warriors and you don't rely on the ref's, other team members or ONE aspect(PP)of your game plan, to win a championship.

The ability to ADAPT was our downfall in 2011 and we are far better off this time around already in this rebuild. 

Key pieces seem to be in place and now its just a matter of fine tuning and putting it all together. I think those that do not support this ideology will be pleasantly surprised once they see how effective this new group can be and what they will be able to accomplish. Good times are ahead.

[EdgarM]

15 hours ago, kingofsurrey said:

You had me till the last sentence.......      Sutter is tenacious  good skater  but he is not gritty. / sandpaper......  and i know about gritty..... lol

He has been a bit of an anomaly the past season or so but I really liked his play when he first got here. Maybe its been the injuries I don't know. He seems to be a leader on and off the ice and someone who wants to win at all costs. I don't see him as a floater or someone that shy's away from finishing checks. I would like to see what he can do with the new found depth on the team and an injury free season.