[Official] 2019 Training Camp Thread

[86Viking]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Tracking to over 50 points, 24 minutes a night.  Its good top pair D numbers.

Edler has never hit 50pts in his career, I don't see a Giordano type later career offensive jump. Have to be healthy all 82 games or get 50pts in X amount of games. Projected totals mean nothing

[gameburn]

17 hours ago, mll said:

He says he's fully healed and he has been playing - even taking and throwing hits.  

 

They have players who fit better.  Roussel is also coming back.  There's just no spot for him re style of play and role.  

He looked good with Gaudette -- and continues to look good with Horvat -- I guess for me the question is whether he has more to contribute in the long run than Pearson or the likes of Leivo.  In the last few years he has done enough to make a case.  But last year Pearson put up some points and seemed to grow as a player, which has to be bad for Baertschi.  1st line: EP40, Boes, Ferland;  then a second line of: Horvat, Miller (his new give and go guy for sure) and Pearson?;

then a 3rd line of: Gaudette, Virtanen, Sutter;  and the 4th line of Beagle, Motte (Roussel), Leivo, with Schaller as the extra guy until he is replaced by Roussel, who would take over from Motte on the fourth line (or Virtanen or Sutter on 3rd line). 

 

It certainly makes no sense to use Baertschi on the 4th line, so the question is really whether Virtanen or Sutter get bumped downwards to the 4th to make room for Baertschi to play along with Gaudette (who obviously had some chemistry with Gaudette.)  I'd rather have Baertschi with Gaudette for scoring reasons, but there could be very good reasons to keep Sutter as the real faceoff guy or to keep Virtanen there because of his physical presence and 15 plus goals.

[-DLC-]

9 hours ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

I think you need to pay attention to the games a little closer to really see what I'm talking about, but don't worry you'll get to see it this year it will happen a lot I saw it in the pre season game already, but of course since they won and scored a bunch no one looks at those little things, they only look at those things when it's not going right or not scoring goals unfortunately.

 

Last year I'm sure if I dig it up in my history I can find it, but I believe it was the first couple games of the year or even the first game of the year, I said this whole D needed to be revamped because it was really weak the D was garbage and I believe we saw that last year lol, so comparing Edler to how bad the D last year was is not really saying much, what was it 3-4 years ago Edler led the league in minus.

 

I've been on Edlers case since about 2012-13, that's when I started noticing him not getting any better when he should of been especially at the age he was at in his prime years. I do strongly believe his back injury has really slowed him down over the years, but now with him getting even older he isn't getting better anymore he's just going to continue to slow down more and imo that's even more scarier since he already can't catch guys after he loses it at the offensive blue line. 

I watched from the glass last game....this couldn't be more incorrect about Edler.  He had a beast of a game and if he's gassed at times, that happens.  But we need physicality and he was giving us that element of things.  

 

 

[Fanuck]

15 minutes ago, gameburn said:

He looked good with Gaudette -- and continues to look good with Horvat -- I guess for me the question is whether he has more to contribute in the long run than Pearson or the likes of Leivo.  In the last few years he has done enough to make a case.  But last year Pearson put up some points and seemed to grow as a player, which has to be bad for Baertschi.  1st line: EP40, Boes, Ferland;  then a second line of: Horvat, Miller (his new give and go guy for sure) and Pearson?;

then a 3rd line of: Gaudette, Virtanen, Sutter;  and the 4th line of Beagle, Motte (Roussel), Leivo, with Schaller as the extra guy until he is replaced by Roussel, who would take over from Motte on the fourth line (or Virtanen or Sutter on 3rd line). 

 

It certainly makes no sense to use Baertschi on the 4th line, so the question is really whether Virtanen or Sutter get bumped downwards to the 4th to make room for Baertschi to play along with Gaudette (who obviously had some chemistry with Gaudette.)  I'd rather have Baertschi with Gaudette for scoring reasons, but there could be very good reasons to keep Sutter as the real faceoff guy or to keep Virtanen there because of his physical presence and 15 plus goals.

Pick any 2 players mentioned above for the inevitable long-term injuries that will occur. 

That's the real reason why I think JB is keeping all these guys around. 

AG might get 'papered' to Utica,  but we all know somebody is unfortunately getting injured from the forward group sometime  -  nevermind the defence injuries which will also follow.  Yes, I'm feeling pessimistic this morning......

[-DLC-]

9 hours ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Yeah some of you did, but many also didn't like his play on lots of nights especially his lack of passing to Brock on the PP, which I don't know how anyone can deny that to be honest. I was just a little surprised to see how many supported Edler after receiving a raise on his new contract, it's like many flip flopped on him once he re-signed, so it shocks me a bit.

Also...it's ok to support a contract re-signing but still be critical at times on a game by game basis.   It's not got to be one or the other.

 

D men are hard to find....someone who comes with experience and a bit of size that he uses in a physical way (at times, not always) aren't usually just thrown out with the bathwater.  You have to replace them and not many give them up.

 

Edler likes to shoot....when we were trying to get the tying goal last game, we saw that.  In order to score you need to .... shoot the puck.  So him not wanting to pass while, at times, was glaring is also ok in that he wants to try to score.  We needed more scoring.

 

[stawns]

5 minutes ago, Fanuck said:

Pick any 2 players mentioned above for the inevitable long-term injuries that will occur. 

That's the real reason why I think JB is keeping all these guys around. 

AG might get 'papered' to Utica,  but we all know somebody is unfortunately getting injured from the forward group sometime  -  nevermind the defence injuries which will also follow.  Yes, I'm feeling pessimistic this morning......

He won't get "papered" to Utica.......if he gets sent down, he's actually going to Utica, imo.

[Kootenay Gold]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

He won't get "papered" to Utica.......if he gets sent down, he's actually going to Utica, imo.

I think they will send Adam down to Utica and not because he is not good enough to have earned a spot. Part of running a team is asset management and Adam does not need waivers. That being said; other players will be waived in order to get to the 23 man roster limit. As to what they have in mind, that will be known, probably tomorrow. I am a bit perplexed as to how it will play out though. Do you waive a 24 yr old player that is highly skilled but lacks in compete level (Goldobin) or a 34 yr old player who is in the twilight of his career (Eriksson)? The other player IMO to be waived will be Tim Schaller. He can be effective on the 4th line and as a penalty killer but is that enough?

 

For any that are upset with Adam possibly being waived.... he will be one of the first to be called up when injuries start to take their toll as they always seem to do.

[ilduce39]

49 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said:

Edler has never hit 50pts in his career, I don't see a Giordano type later career offensive jump. Have to be healthy all 82 games or get 50pts in X amount of games. Projected totals mean nothing

I disagree. It’s just a way of adding context to his PPG.  

 

The point is, Edler has been very effective (and productive) his past 2 seasons when he’s on the ice.  

 

If we’re discussing Edler’s impact over a season it’s fine to mention that he’s very unlikely to play all 82 games.  

 

However, his impact on an individual game that he is healthy for is a .52 PPG player over the past 2 seasons - which is very healthy point total for a D man. 

[mll]

1 hour ago, gameburn said:

He looked good with Gaudette -- and continues to look good with Horvat -- I guess for me the question is whether he has more to contribute in the long run than Pearson or the likes of Leivo.  In the last few years he has done enough to make a case.  But last year Pearson put up some points and seemed to grow as a player, which has to be bad for Baertschi.  1st line: EP40, Boes, Ferland;  then a second line of: Horvat, Miller (his new give and go guy for sure) and Pearson?;

then a 3rd line of: Gaudette, Virtanen, Sutter;  and the 4th line of Beagle, Motte (Roussel), Leivo, with Schaller as the extra guy until he is replaced by Roussel, who would take over from Motte on the fourth line (or Virtanen or Sutter on 3rd line). 

 

It certainly makes no sense to use Baertschi on the 4th line, so the question is really whether Virtanen or Sutter get bumped downwards to the 4th to make room for Baertschi to play along with Gaudette (who obviously had some chemistry with Gaudette.)  I'd rather have Baertschi with Gaudette for scoring reasons, but there could be very good reasons to keep Sutter as the real faceoff guy or to keep Virtanen there because of his physical presence and 15 plus goals.

 

It seems like too many moves to try and accommodate Baertschi into the lineup.  It doesn't make for strong lines when the player just doesn't fit the role or the style of play of his linemates.

 

Edited September 29, 2019 by mll

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, gameburn said:

He looked good with Gaudette -- and continues to look good with Horvat -- I guess for me the question is whether he has more to contribute in the long run than Pearson or the likes of Leivo.  In the last few years he has done enough to make a case.  But last year Pearson put up some points and seemed to grow as a player, which has to be bad for Baertschi.  1st line: EP40, Boes, Ferland;  then a second line of: Horvat, Miller (his new give and go guy for sure) and Pearson?;

then a 3rd line of: Gaudette, Virtanen, Sutter;  and the 4th line of Beagle, Motte (Roussel), Leivo, with Schaller as the extra guy until he is replaced by Roussel, who would take over from Motte on the fourth line (or Virtanen or Sutter on 3rd line). 

 

It certainly makes no sense to use Baertschi on the 4th line, so the question is really whether Virtanen or Sutter get bumped downwards to the 4th to make room for Baertschi to play along with Gaudette (who obviously had some chemistry with Gaudette.)  I'd rather have Baertschi with Gaudette for scoring reasons, but there could be very good reasons to keep Sutter as the real faceoff guy or to keep Virtanen there because of his physical presence and 15 plus goals.

Baertchi is unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place. He does not provide enough offense as does Boes or Petey and he does not bring a combination of offense and physical presence such as Bo,Ferlund,Miller or Pearson. 

He is similar to Goldy in that they do not provide enough of either. That is Virt's concern as well. He can produce more offense and more physical presence but is kind of in between. He does produce more defense/physicality then Baert or Goldy though, so I see him as a step above these two.

[mikeyman109]

1 hour ago, debluvscanucks said:

Also...it's ok to support a contract re-signing but still be critical at times on a game by game basis.   It's not got to be one or the other.

 

D men are hard to find....someone who comes with experience and a bit of size that he uses in a physical way (at times, not always) aren't usually just thrown out with the bathwater.  You have to replace them and not many give them up.

 

Edler likes to shoot....when we were trying to get the tying goal last game, we saw that.  In order to score you need to .... shoot the puck.  So him not wanting to pass while, at times, was glaring is also ok in that he wants to try to score.  We needed more scoring.

 

Its not that Edler cant play on the PP ; his shot is not bad its certainly better than Quinn Hughes or Stecher, its his inability to pass on the back hand and the fact he has one goal on the power play last year. Myers has a better shot, Hughes can pass better on both the forehand and back hand.

I am glad Edler is back even though he frustrated me at times. His physical presence is needed for sure.I just like the fact we have other options on the power play other than just trotting our Edler as our only option

[mikeyman109]

11 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Baertchi is unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place. He does not provide enough offense as does Boes or Petey and he does not bring a combination of offense and physical presence such as Bo,Ferlund,Miller or Pearson. 

He is similar to Goldy in that they do not provide enough of either. That is Virt's concern as well. He can produce more offense and more physical presence but is kind of in between. He does produce more defense/physicality then Baert or Goldy though, so I see him as a step above these two.

great post I agree completely . Its a good problem to have that we have guys that are getting bumped out of their comfort zone due to other players stepping up.

[Crabcakes]

Gaudette has certainly earned a spot on the roster.  Benning always says that if a young player earns a spot, he will make room.  What some people are forgetting is that it can take several months to make room.  I think that Gaudette making the team (since he isn't waiver eligible) is going to require a trade.

 

The easy choices remaining imo are to waive Goldobin and Schaller.  Next, they could either waive Biega or Fantenberg.  If Gaudette is sent down, that is all they have to do.

 

To have Gaudette play, they would have to waive Motte who has already shown that he is an effective and speedy 4th line winger.  Eriksson could go too but like people have said, take away the salary and you've got the 6th highest point getter from last year, good on the pk and does all the little things (I kid but Higgins was that guy at the end too)

 

The other candidates to move to make room for Gaudette would require a trade.  Virtanen, Sutter, Beagle, Baertschi, Leivo.....obviously as we go down the list, we're getting into guys who are role players but who we would rather keep on the team.

 

When Roussel gets healthy and is ready to play again in Dec or Jan, another player drops off the list too

Edited September 29, 2019 by Crabcakes

[mikeyman109]

12 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Gaudette has certainly earned a spot on the roster.  Benning always says that if a young player earns a spot, he will make room.  What some people are forgetting is that it can take several months to make room.  I think that Gaudette making the team (since he isn't waiver eligible) is going to require a trade.

 

The easy choices remaining imo are to waive Goldobin and Schaller.  Next, they could either waive Biega or Fantenberg.  If Gaudette is sent down, that is all they have to do.

 

To have Gaudette play, they would have to waive Motte who has already shown that he is an effective and speedy 4th line winger.

 

The other candidates to move to make room for Gaudette would require a trade.  Virtanen, Sutter, Beagle, Baertschi, Leivo.....obviously as we go down the list, we're getting into guys who are role players but who we would rather keep on the team.

 

When Roussel gets healthy and is ready to play again in Dec or Jan, another player drops off the list too

This is all true its just that some of the options are not likely due to contracts being hard to unload, declining play, health issues etc

Ideally we would trade Eriksson, that solves all of our cap issues and does not take away very much from the team. Not likely to happen due to overpaid contract.

Sutter could also be traded, not likely many teams will take a risk on a 30 yr old who cant stay healthy, not likely to happen

Waiving Schaller, this will happen as he isnt likely to be picked up unless a team really wants a high paid fourth line player.

Goldobin waived, most likely picked up by Ottawa that would get first pick and needs some skill up front.I doubt NG gets through all 30 other teams on the wire. Good luck elsewhere.

Beagle Baertschi and Leivo bring something to the table I agree we will want to keep them at least as trade pieces

Virtanen is still developing and as a power forward is ahead of where Bertuzzi was at his age. not time to pull the plug on him yet.

Its a good thing to have the competition for spots as this will make for a better team.

Gaudette will most likely end the season in Vancouver, its just who gets moved to make the room and when.

 

 

 

[DeNiro]

1 hour ago, mll said:

 

It seems like too many moves to try and accommodate Baertschi into the lineup.  It doesn't make for strong lines when the player just doesn't fit the role or the style of play of his linemates.

 

If they want three lines that can score, Baertschi brings more to the table than someone like Sutter or Virtanen.

 

If anything it’s Sutter that doesn’t really fit the third line the way they wanna build it. I think a combo of Baertschi, Gaudette, and Leivo or Virtanen would go a lot farther in creating three scoring lines.

 

That leaves us our 13 million dollar fourth line of Eriksson, Beagle, and Sutter!

[canuck73_3]

2 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

If they want three lines that can score, Baertschi brings more to the table than someone like Sutter or Virtanen.

 

If anything it’s Sutter that doesn’t really fit the third line the way they wanna build it. I think a combo of Baertschi, Gaudette, and Leivo or Virtanen would go a lot farther in creating three scoring lines.

 

That leaves us our 13 million dollar fourth line of Eriksson, Beagle, and Sutter!

Disagree about Sutter he has shown he can score and make plays, health as of late is really his only issue as it has affected his consistency.

Edited September 29, 2019 by canuck73_3

[DeNiro]

Just now, canuck73_3 said:

Disagree about Sutter he has shown he can score and make plays, health as of late is really his only issue as it has effected his consistency.

Every time he was healthy (which wasn’t much) I didn’t see him really drive his line or make his wingers better.

 

If we want three scoring lines I don’t see having Sutter as our third line center making sense. I think that would just revert us back to having two offensive lines and two shutdown lines. Putting more pressure on Bo and Petey to produce.

[canuck73_3]

7 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Every time he was healthy (which wasn’t much) I didn’t see him really drive his line or make his wingers better.

 

If we want three scoring lines I don’t see having Sutter as our third line center making sense. I think that would just revert us back to having two offensive lines and two shutdown lines. Putting more pressure on Bo and Petey to produce.

You weren't watching close enough then, the Sutter can't produce narrative is a lazy myth wadr 

 

see his production with Dorsett, Dorsett was on pace to destroy his career high in goals scored and points with Sutter

Edited September 29, 2019 by canuck73_3

[Crabcakes]

3 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

If they want three lines that can score, Baertschi brings more to the table than someone like Sutter or Virtanen.

 

If anything it’s Sutter that doesn’t really fit the third line the way they wanna build it. I think a combo of Baertschi, Gaudette, and Leivo or Virtanen would go a lot farther in creating three scoring lines.

 

That leaves us our 13 million dollar fourth line of Eriksson, Beagle, and Sutter!

Agree, Sutter was brought in as a match up guy to shelter developing kids.  The team has moved along.  The talent level is such that they have the players to have 3 offensive lines now and Sutter is the odd man out.  They could make Sutter a 4C 5 v 5 who also plays the PK because face it, he is a better player than Beagle.

 

Either way, Sutter is the square peg here.  

[EdgarM]

11 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

This is all true its just that some of the options are not likely due to contracts being hard to unload, declining play, health issues etc

Ideally we would trade Eriksson, that solves all of our cap issues and does not take away very much from the team. Not likely to happen due to overpaid contract.

Sutter could also be traded, not likely many teams will take a risk on a 30 yr old who cant stay healthy, not likely to happen

Waiving Schaller, this will happen as he isnt likely to be picked up unless a team really wants a high paid fourth line player.

Goldobin waived, most likely picked up by Ottawa that would get first pick and needs some skill up front.I doubt NG gets through all 30 other teams on the wire. Good luck elsewhere.

Beagle Baertschi and Leivo bring something to the table I agree we will want to keep them at least as trade pieces

Virtanen is still developing and as a power forward is ahead of where Bertuzzi was at his age. not time to pull the plug on him yet.

Its a good thing to have the competition for spots as this will make for a better team.

Gaudette will most likely end the season in Vancouver, its just who gets moved to make the room and when.

 

 

 

Totally agree. Schaller is definitely the first to go and then probably Goldy. I do think that JB is trying to go the trade route too and just hasn't found the right one yet. Very good point about Virt, Bert never really started to produce until he was around 25 years old. Yes Gaud will make the team it just has to be worked out "when" and "how" that will happen.