Probably Only 3 Cdn Markets Could Produce a Sustainable Winner

[Nuxfanabroad]

I'll preface this, by saying I'd like (perhaps) 10 markets in Canada, & would like them to all do well. Unfortunately, it seems 4 franchises are likely used as a version of farm-feeder(perhaps a tier between AHL & NHL?) for more 'privileged' NHL darlings. League doesn't care about success here..they'll sell tix anyways.

 

Two Ab teams, Win & Ott are probably destinations that 80-90% of big leaguers don't want to be in..although they'd never come out & boldly state as much. Anonymity, tax perks, weather, image, etc...the usual complaints for young millionaires.

 

************************* As it stands today... *********************

 

...it appears only Van, TO & MTL have potential to build sustainably*(I'll define that as capable of winning a Cup, & even defending it) great teams. I don't think Cal will ever sustain success(it'll be temporary). Then you have a league that'll likely try to trip up any serious attempts for these 3 cities. In our case, witness 2011 standards, or the "Luongo cap-recapture rule" as obvious examples.

 

TO's already in serious contract trubs, & it'll likely get worse.

 

In general, it seems Cdn teams have to cough up about 10% more, for comparable talent, than their US counterparts(esp in the sweetheart tax regions, like TBay & LV)

 

Question #1: If you believe there is a disadvantage for Cdn teams(yet you were GM of 1 of the 3 I've mentioned) would you have any specific strategy/unique approach that you'd purposefully employ in building the best roster?

Edited September 12, 2019 by Nuxfanabroad
Title-tweak :^)

[Alflives]

Vancouver, Calgary, and Toronto will make the playoffs.  

Canucks will win the Cup

Flames and Leafs lose (because they are losers) in round one.  

[6string]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Vancouver, Calgary, and Toronto will make the playoffs.  

Canucks will win the Cup

Flames and Leafs lose (because they are losers) in round one.  

This above...

[Toews]

The only team with significant handicaps are Edmonton and Ottawa and that's because their ownership have been unreliable over the years. Katz and Melnyk have their similarities but they also differ in their approach. The Sens have some hope considering the number of draft picks they have and this is a team has been great at drafting. With Katz at the helm I believe the Oilers will always be inhibited.

 

Everyone else has a fair shot. 

 

[BrockBoester]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Vancouver, Calgary, and Toronto will make the playoffs.  

Canucks will win the Cup

Flames and Leafs lose (because they are losers) in round one.  

I want to see Vancouver vs Toronto in the cup finals.

 

And I want exactly this to happen.

 

Toronto wins game 1 4-0.

Toronto wins game 2 3-0.

Toronto wins game 3 6-0.

 

Then

 

The Laffs are ahead 7-0 going into the third period of game 4. Petey scores 8 goals in the final 5 minutes of the third, and we win 8-7.

 

Game 5 Toronto is up 3-2 with 9 seconds to go, faceoff in their end. One timer from Boeser, with 0.1 left on the clock, game is tied. Then, Hughes goes on a breakaway 10 seconds into OT and finishes the job - 4-3 OT win.

 

Game 6 - Canucks win 24-0 - hat tricks from Boeser, Horvat, Pettersson, Miller, Ferland, Hughes, Edler, and Eriksson

 

Game 7 goes into quintuple OT tied 0-0. Demko fires the puck down the ice on the PK, and because the ice is terrible at this point in the game, it takes a lucky bounce and finds its way into the back of Toronto's net. Canucks win the series and the Cup, 4 games to 3, in the most epic Toronto choke-job since they lost to Boston in 2013

[Nuxfanabroad]

3 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Vancouver, Calgary, and Toronto will make the playoffs.  

Canucks will win the Cup

Flames and Leafs lose (because they are losers) in round one.  

Question #1: If you believe there is a disadvantage for Cdn teams(yet you were GM of 1 of the 3 I've mentioned) would you have any specific strategy/unique approach that you'd purposefully employ in building the best roster?

Answer- Create the BEST, affordable top-4 D that you can, as cost-efficient as you can make it. Might include an ELC perhaps?

 

Great top-4 D should be on the ice 80-85% of the time. If you couple this with great 'tending, I think the sky might be the limit.

Perhaps 30-35 mill spent on a brilliant top-4 & money GT? Imho, it's the most sustainable way of keeping a top team.

 

For this reason, the Leafers are hooped, & we have a good shot. If Tryamkin returns & Olli pans out, we're golden!

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

I'll preface this, by saying I'd like (perhaps) 10 markets in Canada, & would like them to all do well. Unfortunately, it seems 4 franchises are likely used as a version of farm-feeder(perhaps a tier between AHL & NHL?) for more 'privileged' NHL darlings. League doesn't care about success here..they'll sell tix anyways.

 

Two Ab teams, Win & Ott are probably destinations that 80-90% of big leaguers don't want to be in..although they'd never come out & boldly state as much. Anonymity, tax perks, weather, image, etc...the usual complaints for young millionaires.

 

************************* As it stands today... *********************

 

...it appears only Van, TO & MTL have potential to build sustainably*(I'll define that as capable of winning a Cup, & even defending it) great teams. I don't think Cal will ever sustain success(it'll be temporary). Then you have a league that'll likely try to trip up any serious attempts for these 3 cities. In our case, witness 2011 standards, or the "Luongo cap-recapture rule" as obvious examples.

 

TO's already in serious contract trubs, & it'll likely get worse.

 

In general, it seems Cdn teams have to cough up about 10% more, for comparable talent, than their US counterparts(esp in the sweetheart tax regions, like TBay & LV)

 

Question #1: If you believe there is a disadvantage for Cdn teams(yet you were GM of 1 of the 3 I've mentioned) would you have any specific strategy/unique approach that you'd purposefully employ in building the best roster?

My observation;

 

Toronto, Calgary, albeit without prolonged droughts, Montreal without droughts & Edmonton have all supported hockey when their team was getting hammered. Winnipeg supported a pretty soft start for its team.  I am very interested if their support is retained as they start to have some hurdles? 

 

Vancouver almost left town before Burkie & even before Pat Quinn arrived. Owners were losing $25 & $50 mill a year. 

 

To me that makes them better hockey markets than Vancouver.  Based on population, we do have better opportunity than all but Toronto & Montreal. To be more profitable in good times? We made big bucks, top 5 in the NHL when we were winning 2009 -2012. Therefore, to some degree, ability to be a top team in the standings?

 

But I don't think its fair to say we are a better hockey market. Our arena, even with Pettersson, one of 4 or 6 of the most exciting rookies in a generation? We still have not had a full barn...

 

Unlike most, I've lived in Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Vancouver. My family now stays Ottawa. I hated Edmonton. Winnipeg was better than advertised. Calgary attractive, as was Vancouver. 

 

What would I do as GM?  Before I got in to on ice strategy.  I would be looking at as many ways as possible to promote and grow the game. Vancouver made $250 mill in their heyday. As soon as you pass $50 mill?  A number I believe the teams deserve first, considering the owners investment. $1 in $5 give back directly to the game. Uniforms, skates for community clubs, pay their referees's & sponsor their tournaments. Help pay for busses for junior age teams. Every NHL home game, two kids teams get free tickets. The teams do a lot already to be fair. Work with charities.  

 

Encourage the league to not support bad markets.  Arizona has had, what 6 owners in 12 years? Revenue sharing, offering NHL cash to teams like Florida, need to be slowed down. They would rather watch swap buggy racing & wrestling alligators. I would be happier with the NHL supporting junior aged teams in Milwakee & Wyoming. Grow the game at a grass roots level. More players growing up with the game in markets that have ice rinks is more likely to make American markets viable. Than supporting owners in Carolina with TV money. That's a risk.  Bettman firmly bet you get better TV ratings by having a National competition in the US. But I don't see that working!       

 

Which, naturally, affects labour markets.  AHEM, where players want to play.  Of course players would rather play in Florida than Winnipeg. But not if they could make $5 mill in Winnipeg. $2 mill in Florida.  Florida barely reports the salary cap as total revenue.  Including revenue sharing, and govt. subsidies. All the Canadian teams except Winnipeg & Ottawa can pay the salary cap. They deserve players more than teams milking revenue sharing.

 

In terms of hockey strategy?  Sell patience to the market. The second biggest reason US markets are so much more successful, in terms of winning rosters? Their teams are not under the same scrutiny. Their GM's the same pressure. Some are? Minnesota may never win because their owner is an idiot. Don't let peer pressure on CDC, riots in the streets, mayhem on twitter influence you to make bad contract decisions. Make players more available for autographs, tv appearances. Discourage tv & radio markets that turn hockey player lives into the Jerry Springer show. Which then buys Jake Virtanen, Olli Juolevi time to develop. Instead of having to hide out, avoid looking at his phone to see what people are saying.

 

I was not a fan of trading draft picks for Miller?  Let the team take an extra year to be good.  Sell EP, sell a hardworking, hard checking game style.  That's how Calgary survived the years before, and just as Gaudreau & Monahan arrived. People support a hard working team.  More than an overpaid team that does not care. But then also, the team would have a longer stay in the standings better grades. I am, in spite of Eriksson, not a fan of intentionally letting the team be bad. I don't mind money for UFA's.  But I'd get another Dorsett before I paid for pure hockey talents.  Mogilny was better than Eriksson. But he did not care if he was here either?  So I am saying sure, pay money, not draft picks. But on lunch bucket guys who give their heart and soul. Patrick Maroon? I like Beagle just like I liked Dorsett. I liked Malhotra. I liked Torres. Get the talent guys by drafting them. 

 

 

[Nuxfanabroad]

Thanks for the reply, Surfer..comprehensive

Edited September 19, 2019 by Nuxfanabroad

[khay]

3 hours ago, BrockBoester said:

I want to see Vancouver vs Toronto in the cup finals.

 

And I want exactly this to happen.

 

Toronto wins game 1 4-0.

Toronto wins game 2 3-0.

Toronto wins game 3 6-0.

 

Then

 

The Laffs are ahead 7-0 going into the third period of game 4. Petey scores 8 goals in the final 5 minutes of the third, and we win 8-7.

 

Game 5 Toronto is up 3-2 with 9 seconds to go, faceoff in their end. One timer from Boeser, with 0.1 left on the clock, game is tied. Then, Hughes goes on a breakaway 10 seconds into OT and finishes the job - 4-3 OT win.

 

Game 6 - Canucks win 24-0 - hat tricks from Boeser, Horvat, Pettersson, Miller, Ferland, Hughes, Edler, and Eriksson

 

Game 7 goes into quintuple OT tied 0-0. Demko fires the puck down the ice on the PK, and because the ice is terrible at this point in the game, it takes a lucky bounce and finds its way into the back of Toronto's net. Canucks win the series and the Cup, 4 games to 3, in the most epic Toronto choke-job since they lost to Boston in 2013

Games 1-3: The number of domestic violence/accidents due to destroying of TV increases.

Games 4-7: Half the population of BC suffers stroke.

[McBackup]

On 9/12/2019 at 2:18 AM, Canuck Surfer said:

My observation;

 

Toronto, Calgary, albeit without prolonged droughts, Montreal without droughts & Edmonton have all supported hockey when their team was getting hammered. Winnipeg supported a pretty soft start for its team.  I am very interested if their support is retained as they start to have some hurdles? 

 

Vancouver almost left town before Burkie & even before Pat Quinn arrived. Owners were losing $25 & $50 mill a year. 

 

To me that makes them better hockey markets than Vancouver.

 

This simply isn't true. The threat of the Canucks leaving was instigated by a terrible Canadian dollar, not a lack of support. Edmonton and Calgary faced the exact same problem, with an 11th hour move to Houston very narrowly avoided by the Oilers. Winnipeg and Quebec actually did move. Nobody's going to tell me those markets don't support hockey. Vancouver is no different. The "Vancouver fans are fairweather and don't support hockey" narrative is utter BS and only promulgated by the type of Canuck "fans" who scream and shout about how terrible the fanbase is while not including themselves and ignoring the horde of evidence to the contrary.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Bitter Melon

[Canuck Surfer]

3 minutes ago, Bitter Melon said:

This simply isn't true. The threat of the Canucks leaving was instigated by a terrible Canadian dollar, not a lack of support. Edmonton and Calgary faced the exact same problem, with an 11th hour move to Houston very narrowly avoided by the Oilers. Winnipeg and Quebec actually did move. Nobody's going to tell me those markets don't support hockey. Vancouver is no different. The "Vancouver fans are fairweather and don't support hockey" narrative is utter BS and only promulgated by the type of Canuck "fans" who scream and shout about how terrible the fanbase is while not including themselves and ignoring the horde of evidence to the contrary.

 

 

 

You may not have lived through it? In Van back then or other cities.

 

The dollar is 0.75 cents atm, was 0.68 / 0.65 at that time. The P & E used to be 1/2 empty, GM place when it opened was not full either. Nor was it last year, 1/3rd empty the 2 & 3 yers previous. I have lived Edmonton, Winnpeg, Calgary & Vancouver. Seen games in all. Its an observation I feel is fair.

 

Rogers is great fun when we're winning.  It beats a lot of US markets in bad times.  But its not the same as other Canadian cities.

 

Nor do they riot when we lose?  There is a gloom over the city & fans stay away.  

[McBackup]

1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

You may not have lived through it? In Van back then or other cities.

 

The dollar is 0.75 cents atm, was 0.68 / 0.65 at that time. The P & E used to be 1/2 empty, GM place when it opened was not full either. Nor was it last year, 1/3rd empty the 2 & 3 yers previous. I have lived Edmonton, Winnpeg, Calgary & Vancouver. Seen games in all. Its an observation I feel is fair.

 

Rogers is great fun when we're winning.  It beats a lot of US markets in bad times.  But its not the same as other Canadian cities.

 

Nor do they riot when we lose?  There is a gloom over the city & fans stay away.  

Fair enough, your anecdotal evidence will suffice.

[Nuxfanabroad]

It p*sses me off they don't support long time hockey markets to the freeken'hilt, when they support the teams in empty barn, disinterested, tropical(and/or desert) BS locales.

[Ballisticsports.]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

You may not have lived through it? In Van back then or other cities.

 

The dollar is 0.75 cents atm, was 0.68 / 0.65 at that time. The P & E used to be 1/2 empty, GM place when it opened was not full either. Nor was it last year, 1/3rd empty the 2 & 3 yers previous. I have lived Edmonton, Winnpeg, Calgary & Vancouver. Seen games in all. Its an observation I feel is fair.

 

Rogers is great fun when we're winning.  It beats a lot of US markets in bad times.  But its not the same as other Canadian cities.

 

Nor do they riot when we lose?  There is a gloom over the city & fans stay away.  

Yes I remember going last minute to games and playoff games with my Dad and brother and getting tickets and still seeing lots of empty seats

[Lancaster]

8 hours ago, Bitter Melon said:

This simply isn't true. The threat of the Canucks leaving was instigated by a terrible Canadian dollar, not a lack of support. Edmonton and Calgary faced the exact same problem, with an 11th hour move to Houston very narrowly avoided by the Oilers. Winnipeg and Quebec actually did move. Nobody's going to tell me those markets don't support hockey. Vancouver is no different. The "Vancouver fans are fairweather and don't support hockey" narrative is utter BS and only promulgated by the type of Canuck "fans" who scream and shout about how terrible the fanbase is while not including themselves and ignoring the horde of evidence to the contrary.

 

 

 

I dunno.... 

I've met tons of self-proclaimed "hardcore Canucks fans" back around from 2009-2013 that had no idea about 94.  

 

I guess it all depends on the definition of fandom.  I watched most games even when the Canucks are losing.  I still go buy souvenirs and merchandise even when the team are in the tank.  I still put up my Canucks car flags when they're in the post-season.  I don't consider myself a "hardcore" fan.  Just  a regular fan that goes through with the good times and the bad times.  

[Standing_Tall#37]

1 hour ago, Lancaster said:

I dunno.... 

I've met tons of self-proclaimed "hardcore Canucks fans" back around from 2009-2013 that had no idea about 94.  

 

I guess it all depends on the definition of fandom.  I watched most games even when the Canucks are losing.  I still go buy souvenirs and merchandise even when the team are in the tank.  I still put up my Canucks car flags when they're in the post-season.  I don't consider myself a "hardcore" fan.  Just  a regular fan that goes through with the good times and the bad times.  

When I go to the lower mainland I’m always surprised at the lack of hockey interest compared to anywhere else in the province.

[the grinder]

10 hours ago, Bitter Melon said:

This simply isn't true. The threat of the Canucks leaving was instigated by a terrible Canadian dollar, not a lack of support. Edmonton and Calgary faced the exact same problem, with an 11th hour move to Houston very narrowly avoided by the Oilers. Winnipeg and Quebec actually did move. Nobody's going to tell me those markets don't support hockey. Vancouver is no different. The "Vancouver fans are fairweather and don't support hockey" narrative is utter BS and only promulgated by the type of Canuck "fans" who scream and shout about how terrible the fanbase is while not including themselves and ignoring the horde of evidence to the contrary.

 

 

 

hate to burst your bubble   but the canucks used to the third most popular sports team in Vancouver , the lions and whitecaps were kings of the market , the lions would have 40,000  show up to a game  the canucks barely 10,000 , you could always get tickets on game day , there was a reason it was called the pacific mausoleum because it was so dead there  ,   yep the canucks were in deep trouble  till bure came  and then canucks hockey changed forever ,

Vancouver fans are fairweather  , well again that is true as well  , I have gone to games in the lower bowl  where half the people aren't even watching the game , too busy on the phones  ,  more worried if they are on tv or not  ,  as soon as the team isn't doing great more tickets are available right  , I would say that's quite a few fair weather fans 

[McBackup]

2 hours ago, Lancaster said:

I dunno.... 

I've met tons of self-proclaimed "hardcore Canucks fans" back around from 2009-2013 that had no idea about 94.  

 

I guess it all depends on the definition of fandom.  I watched most games even when the Canucks are losing.  I still go buy souvenirs and merchandise even when the team are in the tank.  I still put up my Canucks car flags when they're in the post-season.  I don't consider myself a "hardcore" fan.  Just  a regular fan that goes through with the good times and the bad times.  

 

29 minutes ago, the grinder said:

hate to burst your bubble   but the canucks used to the third most popular sports team in Vancouver , the lions and whitecaps were kings of the market , the lions would have 40,000  show up to a game  the canucks barely 10,000 , you could always get tickets on game day , there was a reason it was called the pacific mausoleum because it was so dead there  ,   yep the canucks were in deep trouble  till bure came  and then canucks hockey changed forever ,

Vancouver fans are fairweather  , well again that is true as well  , I have gone to games in the lower bowl  where half the people aren't even watching the game , too busy on the phones  ,  more worried if they are on tv or not  ,  as soon as the team isn't doing great more tickets are available right  , I would say that's quite a few fair weather fans 

Cool, always appreciate the anecdotal responses.

[IBatch]

This is a fair comment (OP post) - but the Alberta teams have a small advantage over the rest of Canada as far as taxes go ... I’d include Calgary as another team that’s desirable to play in - the city and culture are pretty nice.   

 

However EDM, WNP and maybe OTT (current owners mostly - otherwise the city itself is extremely clean and actually pretty neat) definitely have a disadvantage.   Athletes would definitely not have them high on their lists as far as places to play.   Trouba is a recent example.   

 

I really don’t see much issue with Canadian players willingness to play in any Canadian city - half the league is still from the great white North, and Vancouver/Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island are not like anywhere else in the country - in that everywhere else has four true seasons - and a lot of places six plus months of winter.   Instead of Oct-March or six months of fall and mostly rain.  In other words weather probably isn’t much of an issue for them (Canadians).   US players is different depending on where they come from, and Northern Europeans and Russians are also used to our climate so don’t think it’s an issue for them.  

 

Thats why id definitely add Calgary to the top four Canadian destinations.   MTL is an amazing city...TO well a huge portion of Canadian players come from ONT so yeah they’d be stoked to play there.   

 

IF Qeubec City ever gets a team I’d add them to the top five as well. 

 

WNP and EDM are definitely near the bottom - and OTT for the moment too (although again I’d say they’d have a better chance with a different ownership group).  Interesting topic. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

This is a fair comment (OP post) - but the Alberta teams have a small advantage over the rest of Canada as far as taxes go ... I’d include Calgary as another team that’s desirable to play in - the city and culture are pretty nice.   

 

However EDM, WNP and maybe OTT (current owners mostly - otherwise the city itself is extremely clean and actually pretty neat) definitely have a disadvantage.   Athletes would definitely not have them high on their lists as far as places to play.   Trouba is a recent example.   

 

I really don’t see much issue with Canadian players willingness to play in any Canadian city - half the league is still from the great white North, and Vancouver/Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island are not like anywhere else in the country - in that everywhere else has four true seasons - and a lot of places six plus months of winter.   Instead of Oct-March or six months of fall and mostly rain.  In other words weather probably isn’t much of an issue for them (Canadians).   US players is different depending on where they come from, and Northern Europeans and Russians are also used to our climate so don’t think it’s an issue for them.  

 

Thats why id definitely add Calgary to the top four Canadian destinations.   MTL is an amazing city...TO well a huge portion of Canadian players come from ONT so yeah they’d be stoked to play there.   

 

IF Qeubec City ever gets a team I’d add them to the top five as well. 

 

WNP and EDM are definitely near the bottom - and OTT for the moment too (although again I’d say they’d have a better chance with a different ownership group).  Interesting topic. 

Don’t a lot of Euro plays love Montreal?